Israel Vs. Lebanon Vs. Syria

Didn't the people that created Israel also create Jordan, Syria and Iraq?!

The boundaries of Middle East countries were arbitrarily fixed by the Western powers after Turkey was defeated in World War I and the French and British mandates were set up. The areas allotted to Israel under the UN partition plan had all been under the control of the Ottomans, who had ruled Palestine from 1517 until 1917.

When Turkey was defeated in World War I, the French took over the area now known as Lebanon and Syria. The British assumed control of Palestine and Iraq. In 1926, the borders were redrawn and Lebanon was separated from Syria.

Britain installed the Emir Faisal, who had been deposed by the French in Syria, as ruler of the new kingdom of Iraq. In 1922, the British created the emirate of Transjordan, which incorporated all of Palestine east of the Jordan River. This was done so that the Emir Abdullah, whose family had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula, would have a Kingdom to rule. None of the countries that border Israel became independent until this century. Many other Arab nations became independent after Israel.
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So I guess all you anti-Israel people are equally anti Jordan, Syria and Iraq?! :w00t:
 
Polts Quote!!:
When Turkey was defeated in World War I, the French took over the area now known as Lebanon and Syria. The British assumed control of Palestine and Iraq. In 1926, the borders were redrawn and Lebanon was separated from Syria.

Britain installed the Emir Faisal, who had been deposed by the French in Syria, as ruler of the new kingdom of Iraq. In 1922, the British created the emirate of Transjordan, which incorporated all of Palestine east of the Jordan River. This was done so that the Emir Abdullah, whose family had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula, would have a Kingdom to rule. None of the countries that border Israel became independent until this century. Many other Arab nations became independent after Israel.
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The dates in red are quite obviously BEFORE the year that Israel was created in 1948. This makes this argument a bit of a red herring. The Arab states in question were created AT LEAST 20 years prior to the founding of Israel.
 
Yes, but they are all artificially created entities created by the same creator that created Israel!! So using that as a reason to deny Israel's right to exist emans you must also deny Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon's right to exist!! Afterall, they were all created in the carve up of Ottoman Turkey's former land that was taken in conquest!! You can't condemn one artificial entity and support the others without a large dose of hypocrisy!!

In 1926, the borders were redrawn and Lebanon was separated from Syria.
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Does this mean Lebanon should not exist?! I mean, the state of Lebanon was an addition at the expense of "Syrian" land after the initial creation of the arab states in 1922!! When was the officially decreed date as to when new states that were drawn up were suddenly unworthy of existance in your eyes?! Do you feel that East Timor has no right to exist being a newly created Christian state surrounded by Muslim Indonesia?!

Or is it just that Israel is a Jewish state that is the major sticking point with you?! If Israel, created in 1948, was another Arab state (just as Lebanon was when created at a later date) rather than a Jewish state, would you still deny its right to existance?!
 
Poltsamaa:
Or is it just that Israel is a Jewish state that is the major sticking point with you?! If Israel, created in 1948, was another Arab state (just as Lebanon was when created at a later date) rather than a Jewish state, would you still deny its right to existance?!
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Nice. 2 + 2 = 5.

I deny Israel's right to exist, I am anti-Jew.

Brilliant.

I would deny their right to exist if they had a history of being unprovoked aggressors in wars that will never end until their selfish desires for more land are met.
 
OPArsenal:
Poltsamaa:
Or is it just that Israel is a Jewish state that is the major sticking point with you?! If Israel, created in 1948, was another Arab state (just as Lebanon was when created at a later date) rather than a Jewish state, would you still deny its right to existance?!
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Nice. 2 + 2 = 5.

I deny Israel's right to exist, I am anti-Jew.

Brilliant.

I would deny their right to exist if they had a history of being unprovoked aggressors in wars that will never end until their selfish desires for more land are met.
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Unprovoked?! So suicide bombers are not provokation?! Rockets fired from Southern Lebanon and Gaza is not provokation?! Declarations from leaders of Islamic nations pledging to wipe Israel off the map is not provokation?! Oh yes, thats right, they should just ignore all that and grin and bear it because any response is unprovoked aggression by the US-backed Zionist regime!! It all becaomes so much clearer when you ignore everything that does not fit your argument!! I see how you do it now!!

Selfish desires for more land?! Israel has a peace of sorts with Egypt and Jordan!! Israel handed back the Sinai which they took during the 6 day war under UN resolution and in the interests of peace with Egypt!! They recently handed back Gaza and were thanked with volleys of rockets fired into their nation!! Hardly the actions of a land hungry nation!! But again, ignoring what doesn't fit your argument makes it easier I suppose!!

I under no illusions that Israel alqways does what is right!! Likewise, a conflict does not simmer for 50+ years unless both sides of the conflict act in ways that continue the conflict!! However, Israel has a right to defend itself!! Lebanon was ordered by the UN to disarm Hezbollah 6 years ago!! Guess what, they did nothing about it and the UN just shrugged its shoulders as they usually do!!

I suggest you log on to something other tha Al Jazeera and read up on things and try and see the conflict from both sides of the fence!!
 
:clap:

Poltsy is my long lost twin brother - he must be, because he said exactly what I would have said, almost to the exact word.



:winner:
 
NYT_Warsaw_uprising_editors.gif


And before any of you cry, it is a joke...a bloody funny one at that because it has an element of truth to it!! :rofl:
 
Polts, I love you.
I had a post that I finished under fast reply, but it was erased earlier on in the thread...so I quit it.

Thanks for sticking it to OPA's anti-semitic I am not an anti-semite talk...not that he wants to be, but he is acting the part.

For example, China persecuted Tibetans, and they have done various human rights violations against various people. THEY ALSO HAVE BILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND MANY NUCLEAR BOMBS! But the UN has not many resolutions against them nor does OPA Arsenal and his cronies on the left find them that bad. I mean if you go into many leftist NS regions; they have many Chinese flags.

Also, what about crazy Arab, African and Latin American regimes that have created bloody coups w/o the majorities consent. Maybe a small here and there when it has to do with the association the US had, but the idea of trashing minorities for injustices, unthinkable. I also love the mention of the millions of Jews forced out of their homes in Arab and Muslim countries with no compensation. Ya, that was great. I mean Jews were in Iraq before Arabs were. Where did they go? O ya they have repressive laws, and had to emigrate...and for the most only a few places would except them...like Israel. Those facists!

OPA earlier in this thread stated that he'd rather live in a country where he is persecuted than one that "supports terrorism" (ie Israel.) This is so ridiculous, so utterly nonsensical, I was literally blown away. No one who has ever been (thankfully this applies to me) harassed and threatened for their religious beliefs (ie beaten up, treated unfairly) would ever say such crap.

Israel isn't perfect. Zionism is not perfect. The war v. Lebanon is far from perfect...but perfection is not in the card with governments. Rather, Israel has been one of the most democratic, pro-western, open societies in world history. It is still in its founding revolution. Those who obcess over its every ways and mishandles are taking part in the thousands of year old practice of blaming the Jews.
 
Well you mentions, why people in this thread are not yelling at China and other countries, is because this thread is about Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. I do not support China's actions on Tibet, and I never will. Now again, is it really fair that the Jews, get the Holy Land, when it is holy to Muslims, Catholics, and Jews, and all of the religions had control of the area, to me, Israel does not have the right to that land. Now I can support a Jewish state, but for it to me in possibly the most desired land in the world, it ridiculous. Saying that the Arabs who were kick out of their homes had it coming, and more so saying that Israel had the right to kick them out, that is saying that you value, Jews over Arabs to me.

OPA's statement on terrorism was in my eyes also correct, for us to define terrorist is not easy. I'd say most of us picture the Radical Muslims holding an AK-47 and burning flags, but if you define it as a group or state that causes terror, you might be a bit better off. Israel, had detained thousands of Lebanese people over the course of its occupation. Israel's occupation of Lebanon has been going on longer then I have been born. The have killed countless more civilians more then Hezbollah, captured, and detained more people then Hezbollah, and yet still it is safe to say that Israel is right. Israel has destroyed Lebanon infrastructure, over and over again, denying them an economy. Now if Israel captured 2 Hezbollah troopers, would you be as pissed off at Israel, I personally doubt it.

Never Calling anyone Anti-Semitic that does not support Israel is a tired argument, when any one uses it and it is not true at all. Saying I'm just blaming Jews I find rather offensive. As I do not support Hezbollah, but I find them easier to support then Israel.

But Id rather not get persecuted.
:P
 
Well you mentions, why people in this thread are not yelling at China and other countries, is because this thread is about Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. I do not support China's actions on Tibet, and I never will. Now again, is it really fair that the Jews, get the Holy Land, when it is holy to Muslims, Catholics, and Jews, and all of the religions had control of the area, to me, Israel does not have the right to that land. Now I can support a Jewish state, but for it to me in possibly the most desired land in the world, it ridiculous. Saying that the Arabs who were kick out of their homes had it coming, and more so saying that Israel had the right to kick them out, that is saying that you value, Jews over Arabs to me.
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I am aware that the thread has nothing to do with China, but that's not my point. My point is many focus a lot on Israel (see News, UN, human rights organizations etc.) not as much as others. It is very Jewish-centric, which is a little disconcerning.

As for Jewish controlled Jerusalem, firstly there is no religionist that cannot go to Jerusalem (obliviously other than those that have broken Israeli law ie terrorism). The Dome of The Rock is visited freely by many Muslims as well as many Christians visit the Holy city too (in fact during the intifada, Christian tourists kept the industry afloat according to what I have heard from people.) When the Muslims and/or Christians had control of Jerusalem, the other religions were quite limited in access. As for an international city, well that' a great idea that has failed. The original split of an Arab and Jewish country next to the other half of the Transjordan had the West Bank for Arab (the West Bank was including Jerusalem) and Jerusalem under international control. When the plan was okayed by the UN, the Arabs showed their support of the plan (9 countries in all) by sending troops to attack Israel. Thus, you can mumbojumbo all you want about the holiness of the site for 3 religions, and I am with you. But I don't see how it is under a Jewish state that allows for freedom of religion and open access to Jerusalem (in fact the only major parts w/ limited access are the under Muslim control, so much so that the Israeli PM Sharon visiting them was so blatantly offensive to the Palestineans that they had to blow up Israeli civilian and themselves for multiple years) is such a bad thing. Now, pretend you are speaking to a Jewish person, and tell him that a Palestinean/Muslim gov't controlling Jerusalem will not limit his or her access to her holy city. It'd get a laugh.

OPA's statement on terrorism was in my eyes also correct, for us to define terrorist is not easy. I'd say most of us picture the Radical Muslims holding an AK-47 and burning flags, but if you define it as a group or state that causes terror, you might be a bit better off. Israel, had detained thousands of Lebanese people over the course of its occupation. Israel's occupation of Lebanon has been going on longer then I have been born. The have killed countless more civilians more then Hezbollah, captured, and detained more people then Hezbollah, and yet still it is safe to say that Israel is right. Israel has destroyed Lebanon infrastructure, over and over again, denying them an economy. Now if Israel captured 2 Hezbollah troopers, would you be as pissed off at Israel, I personally doubt it.
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Terrorism can be defined loosely as those that instill terror. When you suicide bomb a wedding, that is terrorism. When you are trying to destroy an organization shooting missles at you (even if you cause "terror" in their ranks), that is not terrorism. Gov't sponsered terrorism would be like bombing things just to scare people or do acts to freak out the people to change gov'ts. Not put smart bombs on site you think are shooting at you. I also don't think Hezbollah and Israeli troops are the same entity. Hezbollah is an organization that has been asked to be disarmed by the UN, and has continously been harassing Israel since Israel left Lebanon. When Hezbollah took two troops, it was to trade solidiers and to take a jab at Israel. When Israel usually takes Hezbollah or Hamas people, they are usually due to that person or persons being involved in killing Israelis (or plotting to do so). If you don't see the difference, then well that's sort of sad.
Never Calling anyone Anti-Semitic that does not support Israel is a tired argument, when any one uses it and it is not true at all. Saying I'm just blaming Jews I find rather offensive. As I do not support Hezbollah, but I find them easier to support then Israel.

But Id rather not get persecuted.
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I first don't think OPA wants to be anti-semite nor would consider himself as is. Also, if he just had petty pacifist liberal hogwash about Israel, then I would just call him a petty pacifist. But he also denounced the religion (stupid book ie the other books that give Christians and Muslims connection were suprisingly left out of the old and fake catergory) and handled the holocaust lightly... This is not just Israel is too agressive, Israel needs to be more careful. No, its spouting the same thing that people do as they burn Israeli flags in the Arab street, and chant Death to Israel, Death to the Jews. I hate using the phrase, Don't Pick Me Up, because first it is very strong and judgmental and is a bad argument (people use get turned off by such phrasology)...but OPA needs to understand that he has a thing about Jews that is very unsettling not just Israel.
 
I have to say good point about a Jewish controled Jerusalem, Im not really educated on how the other religions handled it, but none the less it would be a conflict.

Terrorism can be defined loosely as those that instill terror. When you suicide bomb a wedding, that is terrorism. When you are trying to destroy an organization shooting missles at you (even if you cause "terror" in their ranks), that is not terrorism. Gov't sponsered terrorism would be like bombing things just to scare people or do acts to freak out the people to change gov'ts. Not put smart bombs on site you think are shooting at you. I also don't think Hezbollah and Israeli troops are the same entity. Hezbollah is an organization that has been asked to be disarmed by the UN, and has continously been harassing Israel since Israel left Lebanon. When Hezbollah took two troops, it was to trade solidiers and to take a jab at Israel. When Israel usually takes Hezbollah or Hamas people, they are usually due to that person or persons being involved in killing Israelis (or plotting to do so). If you don't see the difference, then well that's sort of sad.
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This is what I am talking about, bigger nations can get away with crap, because they are a nation. Lets switch the sides around, what is a country that invades, and occupies the southern portion of a country for over 20 years. Lets for a second remember more then this last month of conflict. The UN called for a complete withdrawl of Isreali troopers and Israel complied to a bit, but still occupied I belive an area called Golan Heights. So both groups have broken UN resolutions. At this point in time I can not say who started the conflict, just that ever action by both can be seen as retalitory strikes, and this is part of the reason division over who is right, and who is wrong is so much durring this conflit. Both sides have good reason to be pissed at the other, and really as long as the UN doesnt want to piss off the US, and the oil owners in Arabia, they probally wont take any action. Already Hez, and Israel both dont want cease fires, and that shows to me, that fighting will continue. Hex will continue to get wepons from Iran, and Israel will get them from the US. I wish there was just away for the fighting to stop.
 
dont pick it up:
I wish there was just away for the fighting to stop.
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We all do.

However, the problem right now isn't religious tension, as far as I see it. Both Israel and Lebanon are very pro-capitalistic, pro-modernizing countries. I doubt that the typical Israeli gives a flying crap about Allah, or that the typical Lebanese cares too much for the destruction of the infidels. What is wrong right now is that neither side trusts each other, and half a century of invasions, fluctuating borders, and displaced refugees have made them both stubborn enough that neither will back down before the other does first. In short, any "peace plan" will have to be brokered in a culture of mistrust, where concessions are begrudgingly given and quick to be rescinded at any violation. If we add in the general lawlessness and lack of central control in nations like Lebanon, we have a peace process that is all but doomed to failure.

As for the question of why Hezzbollah has general support from the public, it's probably because the average Lebanese citizen doesn't know or particularly care that some random Hezzbollah dude 25 miles east of him fired some rockets onto some Israeli farms. However, when an Israeli helicopter flies over his apartment building and fires some missiles that destroy part of the next block, his first impression is that he is in danger and that Lebanon is under attack. Hezzbollah would then retaliate, which would probably give off the impression that they are defending Lebanon. In fact, since the Lebanese military is just about as lame as a two-legged llama, Hezzbollah will be the only ones that seem to be doing anything to defend the homeland. Now, I'm not saying that this is right. However, human perceptions are often irrational or built upon incomplete evidence. Plus, if you walked in on a group of other people beating on a bunch of your friends, what are you gonna do? You're gonna jump in and try to help your friends fight back. You don't know who started the fight or who's at fault, but that's what you do.

Personally, I also think that the whole "religious war" thing is just religious leaders in Iran exploiting a situation for their own political gain. When Israel bombs stuff, we wind up with angry, homeless Islamic youth. Some religious head honcho tells them, "Hey, the Israelis did this because they want to kill Muslims," and the cycle continues.

And no, I don't have a solution. Sometimes, I think that a free-for-all battle royale would be the best solution for the region. Peace will be won some way or another. Maybe.
 
Monte Ozarka:
And no, I don't have a solution. Sometimes, I think that a free-for-all battle royale would be the best solution for the region. Peace will be won some way or another. Maybe.
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:rofl:

Coming in 2008: Israel with a lot more beachfront property.

I'm not mocking you, I just think it would work out that way.
 
Democratic Donkeys:
Monte Ozarka:
And no, I don't have a solution. Sometimes, I think that a free-for-all battle royale would be the best solution for the region. Peace will be won some way or another. Maybe.
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:rofl:

Coming in 2008: Israel with a lot more beachfront property.

I'm not mocking you, I just think it would work out that way.
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At least it would make for more entertaining "reality" TV. ;)

Also, I feel that the following lyrics are appropriate for our world and society (and us internet warriors) right now:

Well, the sun is shining, and it's almost 85 degrees.
All the girls on the beach cooling off in the ocean breeze.
Nothing beats this California scene when I'm
Staring down at my computer screen because I'm
Web surfing--surfing on the web all day. (on the web all day)

Yeah, I know that waves are breakin', and the surf's up in Malibu.
'Cause a cybercam is showing me a constantly updated preview.
I always use the web to check the weather,
Forget the window, this is so much better when I'm
Web surfing--surfing on the web all day. (on the web all day)

(Oh yeah I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Oh baby I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Yeah I'm gon--) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfinnngggg!
Gonna ride the wave down the information superhighway!

I got an email address that I check twenty times a day,
And my very own homepage with absolutely nothing to say.
I slept through classes almost every morning
'Cause I'm up all night watching cyber porno, yeah.
Web surfing--surfing on the web all day. (on the web all day)

In the chat room yesterday, I thought I'd met the girl of my dreams.
Yeah, the picture she sent me was the cutest thing that I'd ever seen.
She asked me over for a one-night stand, and then I
Found out my girl was a dirty old man, but I'm still
Web surfing--surfing on the web all day. (on the web all day)

(Oh yeah I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Oh baby I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Yeah I'm gon--) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfinnngggg!
Gonna ride the wave down the information superhighway!

Just dial up with your modem,
And baby then you'll see
On AOL they call me "CyberPunk",
So don't you try and mess around with me!

Well, I wrote a little virus, and I sent it to the Pentagon.
I didn't mean any harm, must've written just a line or two wrong.
Now we're on the verge of World War III,
I'm watching it on MSNBC, and I'm still
Web surfing--surfing on the web all day. (on the web all day)

(Oh yeah I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Oh baby I'm) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfing, web surfing!
(Yeah I'm gon--) Surfing, web surfing!
Yes, I'm surfinnngggg!
Gonna ride the wave down the information superhighway!

*insert all the harmony stuff that I won't bother to transcribe*

*AOL sound*

--"Web Surfing" - Stanford Fleet Street Singers

It's a great a capella group on campus with some pretty funny songs. w00t. If anyone wants some of their music, I'll be happy to be your local :greatbight: .
 
OPArsenal, please refrain from Ad Hominem attacks, they have no place in formal debates. You could easily have left out that nasty last part.

*slaps wrist*

Continue.
 
But he also denounced the religion (stupid book ie the other books that give Christians and Muslims connection were suprisingly left out of the old and fake catergory)
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single out Judaism. Really I didn't. Remember me?

and handled the holocaust lightly
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I didn't draw the cartoon. And it DOES make a valid point. Peace cannot be won through war, just as freedom could not be won through work.


By the way, this Anti-Semite really admires the work of this man, who was THIS close to achieving a peace for his people and their neighbors:

rabin.gif


This anti-semite also dated a Jew for two years. He has a yarmukle and has been to temple numerous times.

And the whole time, I sat there, just hating Jews. Hating them with every fiber of my being. Right? :rolleyes:
 
It really amazes me that racism is ingrained so deeply in humanity that any criticism of a group of people is immediately redirected and spinned as an attack on their race or religion.

Being Christian does not give you a right to kill people.
Being Muslim does not give you a right to kill people.
Being Jewish does not give you a right to kill people.

It means just that - if you treat people outside your group as lesser humans, if you make them suffer for the well-being of your own people - you are voiding your group's moral ground.

--

It makes me nauseous.
 
Ermarian:
It really amazes me that racism is ingrained so deeply in humanity that any criticism of a group of people is immediately redirected and spinned as an attack on their race or religion.

Being Christian does not give you a right to kill people.
Being Muslim does not give you a right to kill people.
Being Jewish does not give you a right to kill people.

It means just that - if you treat people outside your group as lesser humans, if you make them suffer for the well-being of your own people - you are voiding your group's moral ground.

--

It makes me nauseous.
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QFT
 
OPArsenal:
Bump.

Gotta love those heroic Israelis.
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Errr..yeah!! An article containing no evidence and based on assumption!!

Who'd have guessed a military campaign would seek to destroy avenues of escape, fuel storages and power stations that the enemy may be using to sustain their attacks?! Who would have guessed that people would flee the fighting and become "displaced persons"?!

What an amazing revelation from Amnesty International!! They even state in their full report that:

"The briefing does not cover in any detail the broader implications of the bombing campaign. It does not evaluate the extent of the human rights impact, including violations of the rights to life or economic, social and cultural rights such as the right to food, health and housing, and does not address longer-term economic impact and the massive internal and cross-border displacement. Nor does it address the attacks by Hizbullah into Israel and their impact on civilians – these are being addressed elsewhere."

So what does it cover?!

Next you'll trot out the "Israelis deliberately attack Red Cross ambulance" story!!
 
*sigh*

The crapfest in the Middle East is not a game. There's no "good guys" nor "bad guys". Everything's a murky shade of grey. Unsubstantiated cheerleading and respouting of talking points make this issue so frustrating to discuss.

And to respond to your article, Poltsamaa: It's probably simply because the Middle East is a politically important area (OMGOIL), while no developed country gives a flying crap about Sri Lanka or Sudan (what do they have? Fruit? Sand?). Sorry, but that's pretty much how it is.

Plus, Darfur has had its good share of media coverage (at least in the US). Too bad the government doesn't care. Really, to expect a government to give aid purely out of the goodness of its heart is unreasonable (laudable, certainly, but not realistic). *shrug*
 
Monte Ozarka:
*sigh*

The crapfest in the Middle East is not a game. There's no "good guys" nor "bad guys". Everything's a murky shade of grey. Unsubstantiated cheerleading and respouting of talking points make this issue so frustrating to discuss.

And to respond to your article, Poltsamaa: It's probably simply because the Middle East is a politically important area (OMGOIL), while no developed country gives a flying crap about Sri Lanka or Sudan (what do they have? Fruit? Sand?). Sorry, but that's pretty much how it is.

Plus, Darfur has had its good share of media coverage (at least in the US). Too bad the government doesn't care. Really, to expect a government to give aid purely out of the goodness of its heart is unreasonable (laudable, certainly, but not realistic). *shrug*
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I'm not talking about government response and neither was the article!! All the bleeding hearts who show up at all the protests against Israel and their dealings with the Palestinians are strangely silent when the other events occur!! Are you telling me these protestors are only interested in oil too?! I mean, if they truly were protesting because of human rights violations solely, then they'd be making a lot of noise about the events in Sri Lanka, Kuwait, Syria...but yeah, not a sound!!

I guess cheerleading is only proper when you cheer against the US or Israel!!
 
Monte Ozarka:
The crapfest in the Middle East is not a game. There's no "good guys" nor "bad guys". Everything's a murky shade of grey. Unsubstantiated cheerleading and respouting of talking points make this issue so frustrating to discuss.
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Monte, in my opinion, are not looking correctly at the idea of a good guy and a bad guy. The number of people who have been totally good and/or bad (esp. good) in history are few in number by any account. When analzing further those involved in war and conflict, the number is even less. Just because both sides are not perfect nor utterly and overwhelmingly right or wrong doesn't mean there is not a right and wrong side to be on (not that every situation has a definite right and wrong). Is Western Culture perfect? Hell no. Is America perfect? Hell no. Are many aspects of fundamentalist Islam positive and understandable? I understand (or at least I think I do) many of their ways. But, I choose America/the West over the Islamofascists though. Will this change if the US/West make further mistakes, kill people that after the fact proved "unnecessarily killed", etc. Likely no. You have to choose in life (especially when dealing with war and nuclear weapons etc.) often a darker or lighter gray other other grays. You can't just wait for a black or white option to appear. Just b/c the right side falters doesn't make them wrong.

Also, OPA you make a great argument <_< to prove you are not an anti-semite. You warranted a mod edit and stated to the effect that your dislike of certain things Jewish/Israel compare to other dislikes of yours.

To those who hold such negative feelings towards Judaism (often unintentionally) will many times state comments like "there is a Jew that agrees with me", or "I know a Jew", or that is not true ...you are --mod edit worthy comment--. These though are piss poor arguments. There are Jews that believe in every possible type of opinion. There are anti-semitic Jews; I mean really anti-semitic Jews. Many of the most violently anti-Israel groups have Jews in their ranks. There are Jews that have become leaders in every religion under the sun most noticiably secular humanism. You have yarmulke? You dated a Jew? You went to "Temple" a few times? Mazel Tov, now you can say whatever you want, and all will be forgiven. Ok, I never made the statement that you think anti-Jewish nor perceive yourself as such... If I think you were just a out loud anti-semite, I would not argue with you. But you have blinded yourself to anti-Jewish hatred... You listen to those who hate religion in its entirety but especially the Jews. You listen to those who hate conservatives/warmongers especially the Jewish ones. You listen to those who denounce those who make mistakes especially when a Jew makes one.
 
I see that you are all dsiputing this in depth, but I have to agree with Fergi! Go Israel! I know it is not a game, but that is where my preferance for winning lies.
 
At a risk of gravedigging...the destruction or for want of a better word, dismantling, of Hezbollah is a requirment of a UN sanctioned resolution that is the responsibility of the Lebanese government!! So in the scheme of good and bad, one is a nation fighting off an illegal militia that invaded it and killed and abducted its soldiers and the other is the illegal militia that was required to be disarmed via a UN Resolution!! Israel is the former, Hezbollah the latter!!

Trying to equate one side to the other with regards to right or wrong is ridiculous!! It is truly a sorry day when some people cannot see the difference between a democratic nation and a terrorist organisation!! Even sadder when a nation that is violated is vilified for trying to protect its citizens from those that seek to do it harm!!
 
Also, OPA you make a great argument  to prove you are not an anti-semite. You warranted a mod edit and stated to the effect that your dislike of certain things Jewish/Israel compare to other dislikes of yours.
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As I said before: I'm glad I have you around to tell me what I think.
 
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