Renegade Islands Alliance forums destroyed!

King Durk the Awesome

King Durk the Awesome

TNPer
Yesterday, members of the Renegade Islands Alliance logged into RIA forums to find the following message:

New Marsala:
Dear RIA, due to the aggressive and unprovoked actions of Shiz throughout his time as founder and member of this region all Senate, Special Forces, Grand Jury, Grand Council and other select threads have been destroyed. Unlike your defender counterparts we don't destroy fun threads or mass delete accounts. We have acted with a reason and we have taken ips.

Signed
Jargongrad, DEN Field Marshal
Meridianland, 4 Star General of Lone Wolves United

P.S. Defenders should think twice about their intelligence actions throughout Nation States as this is not a one off, this is further proof that whatever Fendas can do, Raiders can do it better.
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The RIA, nearly two years old, has seen large sections of its forums, particularly in-character content, dismantled by Meridianland of Lone Wolved United and Jargongrad of the DEN. Both gained Admin powers legally without the use of hacking; however, their actions remain in question. Meridianland and Jargongrad both called the RIA home before turning to the invader cause, and in fact knew each other before Nationstates. Also of note is that Meridianland, originally sent to LWU as a spy, had a falling out with the RIA and a change of loyalties.

Throughout the controversy, Meridianland and Jargongrad have maintained that their actions were taken on behalf of LWU and the DEN, respectively. Meridianland holds the position of General in LWU while Jargongrad is the Field Marshal of the DEN. Both state that these positions allow themselves to sanction their own actions on behalf of their organisations; however, other ranking officials of Lone Wolves United disagree. The Wire has caught up with Evil Wolf, another LWU General, to explain his point of view.

The Wire: To the best of your knowledge, how did Meridianland and Jargongrad gain admin status on the RIA forums?
Evil Wolf: As far as I know, the RIA willingly gave Meri, also known as Nosultan, admin status and from there she gave Jarg, also known as Newmarsala, an admin mask as well.

The Wire: Was this destruction sanctioned by Lone Wolves United in any way?
Evil Wolf: Not only was it not sanctioned but the other two generals in the LWU high command, Scardino and myself, were not even informed of it until it was done and over with. Hell, I didn't even know Meri was originally sent into LWU as a spy by RIA until yesterday.

The Wire: So she was originally sent to LWU as a spy.  Do you know when her loyalties actually switched against the RIA?
Evil Wolf: No, I don't.  I only know she was sent in to be exposed as a spy by another RIA sent operative so he could advance in our ranks. I don't know why that plan didn't work out for them.

The Wire: Well that's interesting.  Do you anticipate that LWU will take actions to punish Meridianland for spying on LWU and/or destroying the RIA forums?
Evil Wolf: Because she was an RIA member we don't consider what happen to RIA to be LWU's problem, but rather an incident that occurred within RIA involving their own disgruntled member. We were concidering taking action against Meri for being a RIA spy but since she did come forward its up to debate.

The Wire: So there is a real possibility that Meridianland may be able to continue her career as a Wolf?
Evil Wolf: Yes, a very good possibility

The Wire: All right, thanks for your time.
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If Meridianland is indeed allowed to continue her career in LWU, it, along with the DEN, could face sanctions from the Signatories of the Nationstates Convention on Espionage and Warfare. According to the Convention, those who signed the Convention must take the following actions against those who sanction forum destruction:

(i) the termination of all alliances, pacts, or the like,
(ii) the deletion or removal of embassies, consulates, interest sections, or the like, and
(iii) the cessation of any cooperation or collaboration with that region or organisation on any level.
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Clause (iii) could be of concern to the region Invaders, who saw their own forums vandalized by the Red Liberty Alliance six months ago. Invaders, who often work with LWU and the DEN under the banner of "Raider Unity", were Signatories to the Convention and thus could be obligated to cease all cooperation with the two organisations.

The actions taken over the days and weeks ahead will likely have far reaching effects on much of Nationstates and will be monitored by the Wire carefully.


-Written by John Ashcroft Land; a production of the North Pacific Wire

UPDATE:

The region Invaders has reacted. The Senate of the Invaders passed the following statement:

"The Senate of Invaders wish to express their shock and outrage at the sabotage of the Renegade Island Alliance forum committed by Jargongrad and Meridianland of DEN. As a victim of such atrocities the stance of Invaders has always, and will always be against acts of sabotage to a forum. As signatories of the Convention of Espionage and Warfare we as a region intend to uphold the spirit of said Convention. The Senate of Invaders wish to make it known that we officially condemn the actions of Jargongrad and Meridianland in their desctruction of vital components of the Renegade Islands Alliance forum.

The Senate of Invaders wish to also make it known that they will act upon the sanctions described in Section Three of the Convention for Espionage and Warfare. The Senate wishes to make it clear to the wider NationStates community that the forum accounts of Jargongrad and Meridianland will be deleted from the Invaders forum and that all Invaders co-operation with these two individuals will cease immediately for a period of between 3-12 months to be decided by the Senate at a later date.

The Senate also calls for the expulsion of Meridianland from the DEN organisation and for the resignation of Field Marshall Jargongrad for the shame and embarrassment that these atrocities have brought upon the DEN organisation. However the Senate also wish to make it clear that they will not take any diplomatic actions against the DEN as an organisation, nor against LWU as the Senate have decided these actions do not constitute the sanctions described in Section Four of the Convention.

The Senate urges all other regions in the wider NationStates community to imitate the actions of this organisation and cease co-operation and communication with Jargongrad and Meridianland."
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Several, including Commander Domination6, resigned shortly after. However, Domination soon came back on the request of several Invaders, dissolved the Senate, and issued the following statement:

After the resignation of Heights from the position of Commander in Invaders, the organisation has immediately undergone some changes. For the first time in the history of Invaders it is being led by a sole Commander, with the support of military officers. For the first time in the history of the organisation, Invaders has become a full military state.

This has also led to the dissolving of the Senate and the Magistratus, eliminating the “red tape” many saw inside Invaders. With the dissolving of the Senate and the Magistratus, thus eliminating the political aspect of the organisation, it is with great joy that I announce the command of Invaders has decided to annul the Convention on Espionage and Warfare, including any sanctions imposed by this treaty that have an effect on the well being of Invaders or any of her allies.

Signed
General Domination
Colonel Pompey
Colonel Evil and All Bad
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How is that anyone can post that they have taken IP addresses and maintain that it was all and IC event in nature. IP addresses are OOC.
 
I don't know why that plan didn't work out for them.
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:noangel:


Also, do note that this was in the anti-forum griefing convention:
Section II - Proscribed Activities

(1) The activities listed in this section are Proscribed Activities for the purpose of this Convention.

(2) The use of hacking, cracking, phishing, or any other activity considered illegal by international convention, although the use of scripts legal under NationStates, national, and international laws and policies shall not be prohibited.

(3) The destruction of any material on any forum connected to NationStates unless
(i) that destruction is carried out by the account used to create the forum AND by the person who created that account, or
(ii) that destruction is part of the normal administrative functions of the forum or any governmental activity.
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Seeing as NoSultan was a legitimate member of the administration team and government and seeing as political turmoil is government activity, I don't see that the convention is much of an issue. This was pointed out to me by Domination6 of Invaders. It was pointed out to him by The Heights.
 
Fedele:
Also, do note that this was in the anti-forum griefing convention:
Section II - Proscribed Activities

(1) The activities listed in this section are Proscribed Activities for the purpose of this Convention.

(2) The use of hacking, cracking, phishing, or any other activity considered illegal by international convention, although the use of scripts legal under NationStates, national, and international laws and policies shall not be prohibited.

(3) The destruction of any material on any forum connected to NationStates unless
(i) that destruction is carried out by the account used to create the forum AND by the person who created that account, or
(ii) that destruction is part of the normal administrative functions of the forum or any governmental activity.
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Seeing as NoSultan was a legitimate member of the administration team and government and seeing as political turmoil is government activity, I don't see that the convention is much of an issue. This was pointed out to me by Domination6 of Invaders. It was pointed out to him by The Heights.
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Wow... that's a beautiful way to sneak out of something. In fact, it renders the whole agreement null and void then. Because there's no other way to destroy a forum then by being admin. But if you're admin, then deleting all gov't threads is "normal" business?

That argument is complete bs. Such an act is not justifiable to a reasonable person and it should be condemned by everyone.
 
Thank you.

That's interesting that members of Invaders are actively looking for loopholes. Interesting to see what happens when the shoe is on the other foot.
 
Was the community destroyed? I thought they removed the IC things without touching the OOC threads. IMO the dicey part of this is that they took IPs. IP addresses are the RL/OOC link.
 
Immaterial, Darkesia. It is not so easy to distinguish what makes a community tick.

Fact is, persons representing DEN and LWU destroyed whatever they wanted to destroy, and left whatever they wanted to leave. It is destruction, and it is the exercising of power. Small wonder the community of RIA feel violated. If it happened here, I would feel the same.
 
I would feel as if we had been violated as well, if it happend here or in the NPO. But how people feel about it does not mean the community was destroyed. They are still around to be upset about it and hopefully will receive loads of help from the NS community at large to rebuild.

Don't get me wrong, it's an emotional issue and I understand everyone is upset. But let's be honest, we all knew it was a matter of time. IRL, No one wants Iran or North Korea to have nukes either, but they do.

I suggest that while people are ranting and feeling hurt by the actions they simultaneously be working on an archive system for thier forums.

I'm a realist and I'm practical. What I see is this: If the genie wasn't let out of the bottle a year ago when this type of thing was an unspoken secret tactic nor did it escape when the RLA got screamed at for it 6 ish months ago, then certainly it is well out now. No amount of conferencing or shouting or placing of guilt will put it back. The next step is for a feeder or major region to go down. I strongly suggest we be ready to defend ourselves.
 
Fact is, persons representing DEN and LWU destroyed whatever they wanted to destroy, and left whatever they wanted to leave.
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Point 1: DEN and RIA
Point 2: The RIA member was very unhappy with RIA, obviously, and wanted to destroy all of it but knew it would be of very poor spirit to do so. Instead, NoSultan only deleted the government and military sections knowing that government and military are, as history both in NationStates and out has decided time and time again, are legitimate strike targets in battle. The community was spared.

That is one reason why Lone Wolves United streamlined itself so much. It has a dictatorial triumvirite that makes decisions quickly with no parliament that could be disrupted by such simple tactics. If a general went rogue and cleared LWU's forum, every bit of it, the biggest issue would be who the next general would be. A new forum that looked just like it would be up the next day and would be operating normally. They did it before when Hellfire was exposed as a spy. RIA suffered from internal strife and their own inefficiencies.

All this aside, LWU does not even see a member of RIA clearing RIA's forum as a matter of their concern. They feel it is an issue of member loyalty, security and inefficiency within RIA itself. The only thing they see as concerning them is the fact that RIA had sent multiple spies into LWU. The fact that it backfired is irrelevent.
 
Ah excuse me. LWU now has (and has had) extremely high in its ranks a former RIA member who found it necessary to destroy a regional forum and sign it *as* an LWU member. Of course, that makes *all* the difference. :eyeroll:

Is there any real difference between the OOC and the IC threads on a forum in terms of community? They're both areas that have had a lot of work put into them. I'm sure a lot of thought too (even in the OOC). Both of them are valuable to a group of people as a repository of history.

Wiping out portions of a forum as a tactic to hurt the people of that community is reprehensible. Whoever participates in such an act should be refused participation in the offsite gameplay of NS. There is *no* justification for it that is acceptable.
 
Even if they were legitimate targets, it doesn't accomplish anything. It was an act of spite and should be treated as such, not as a strategic military move. RIA's government and military will (and should already be) functioning relatively normally. The community wasn't destroyed, and nothing except what could be seen as historical archives were.

That doesn't make the act better, it just makes it pointless. The taking of IP Addresses was a mistake, though.

But thank you for proving that the forum convention was a waste of time, at least.
 
The real issue here with LWU, and I think its been largely ignored, is the fact we have not punished Meri/ Sultie for her actions. Other than that, LWU was not involved in anyway, no a single one of our members (other then the one already mentioned) was aware of this until it had already hit the fan. Even Fedele and I were never told.

If you want to yell at LWU for something, that is your only legitimate gripe.
 
Ok, my thoughts...
One, forum destruction is to me not a line of definitiveness. It can be either wrong on all accounts or the line of where it is wrong and right is blurry. The RLA was definitely in the wrong, and two of these forum terrorists are at best questionably legitmate. Nonetheless, it makes no sense to have a blurry line as an accepted policy of NS. It must be resolute and definitive thus I see no respect for forum terrorism as a wise idea.
Two, thus I don't think that the LWU and DEN can so easily dodge this. It must be addressed fully. I am talking every forum destructor should have his IP publicized to forum admins across NS and never be allowed into one again. I am talking fully diplomatic ignorance, and no accceptance of any region or alliance that allows forum terrorists harbor into any diplomatic or military community. If the LWU and DEN want to play the calm down card, I can see a lot of non-defenders, in fact those who strongly dislike the RLA and ADN like me and have much sympathy and agreeance with the invader community, getting very pissed off at them. I know the raiders aren't afraid of anyone, but dammit this is going to takedown the game as we know it.
Three, let me explain my tone. I am fine with spies; they are legitmate. I am even fine with IP finding if it is used to stop spies. No public posting of them but amongst a small group that is legitmate too. My beef is in the destruction part. The taking of off-site work and destroying it. This is a pandora's box. What next viruses? Erasing software? Hacking in general. If one is going to take work and delete, where to stop? I think the invaders and defenders are so absolutely boneheaded and blinded by their idealogies that they seem to not know when to stop. I fear for us all. The moment someone steps over the line of RL computer damage; I fail to see how NS can go on.

Ok...I might post more. Again, good article on JAL's part. I'd suggest reading some of the interviews on the Met's site (probably in their embassy in TNP.) I also wish the LWU and DEN represenative to speak internationally discuss how they are fixing the problem not ignoring it.
 
It was an act of spite and should be treated as such, not as a strategic military move.
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Agreed. NoSultan cleared RIA's government and military forums out of frustration with RIA as a whole and, specifically, Shiz. There was no military planning or strategy involved. However, had it been a military action, those sections of the forum would have been perfectly legitimate targets, in my opinion.

That said, if LWU punished every defender who turned to LWU and connected it with IP addresses or other steady streams of valuable information LWU would have a very long list of very interesting names on a very long statement to the press.
 
Fedele:
NoSultan is quite the 'neat-freak'. Perhaps she was just cleaning up.
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Did your parents abuse you when you were little? No? They should have.

To the best of my knowledge, DEN does not see it as a problem at all except the possibility of some diplomatic tension.

I see the forum destruction as a problem with order within RIA's ranks as it was their own member who was sent to spy on LWU that did it; not a legitimate member of Lone Wolves United. I tend to take little interest in the internal affairs of regions like RIA. I feels the only decision LWU has to make is whether or not we should punish Meridianland/NoSultan for spying on us but it seems at the moment everyone is trusting that she has placed her loyalties firmly with the wolves.
 
//This post has been edited by Fedele on Jun 25 2006, 07:34 PM//
...
 
Fedele:
I don't know why that plan didn't work out for them.
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:noangel:


Also, do note that this was in the anti-forum griefing convention:
Section II - Proscribed Activities

(1) The activities listed in this section are Proscribed Activities for the purpose of this Convention.

(2) The use of hacking, cracking, phishing, or any other activity considered illegal by international convention, although the use of scripts legal under NationStates, national, and international laws and policies shall not be prohibited.

(3) The destruction of any material on any forum connected to NationStates unless
(i) that destruction is carried out by the account used to create the forum AND by the person who created that account, or
(ii) that destruction is part of the normal administrative functions of the forum or any governmental activity.
Click to expand...

Seeing as NoSultan was a legitimate member of the administration team and government and seeing as political turmoil is government activity, I don't see that the convention is much of an issue. This was pointed out to me by Domination6 of Invaders. It was pointed out to him by The Heights.
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Here's the problem with your little attempt at nullifying the convention - you've read it wrong.

Let's look at it piece by piece.

(ii) that destruction is part of the normal administrative functions of the forum or any governmental activity.

"Normal administrative functions" would mean things such as deleting offensive posts or threads - while Sultie may have been pissed at RIA and therefore technically any thread could be deemed offensive by her, just by its very existence, that argument does not hold.

"Any governmental activity" would mean something that is sanctioned by the government as a whole. For example, deleting an old embassy because everyone has decided that there's no reason to keep it around. One renegade does not a government or consensus make.

In addition, the very fact that the destruction was done with malicious intent rules out any provided exception - a government does not destroy itself.
 
Though I'm sure this won't change the opinions of some of the more stubborn people here, I have spoken with Domino Domination of RIA and was told by them that they felt this was caused by disorder in their own ranks. The brief conversation was as follows:

Scardino:
If you can see this just go ahead and post here.
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Domino:
Sure can.

From the Lone Wolves United RMB, so it's not lost in the mess...
Evil Wolf,

You want an apology. I'm afraid this is not possible, but perhaps an explanation is in order before your lackey in the delegate's seat boots me.

Meridianland's espionage mission into your infrastructure was only supposed to go as far as to be rooted from your ranks by our own Shizensky's spy operation, thus advancing his trust and position. Due to RL circumstances, Shiz was unable to complete said operation, and his mission ended in failure.

Meridianland's operation then continued on, unchecked and without any guidance from any RIA official whatsoever, until Shiz's return shortly after my own. It was at this time that I was informed that we had an operative inside your ranks.

I have received two PM reports and one emailed document from said operative (Meridianland/Nosultan) from that point until the present. She failed to heed my advice, and refused to follow Shiz's orders.

From the time that Shiz left due to RL issues and the destruction of our government, Meridianland acted entirely independently of RIA leadership, and from what it sounds like, from LWU's leadership as well.

I do hope that I haven't already been ejected before I make this post, and seeing as we are all reasonable people, hopefully we can discuss this in a respectable manner in further detail in the near future.

I thank you for your time and I apologize to the citizens of this region for taking up at least four inches of your RMB.

Take care,
Domino
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Scardino:
Do you feel that this is in some way the fault of LWU? I don't mean to insinuate anything in that question, I simply mean to start off at the bottom so we can work our way up. Let us establish the simple things so we can move up from there.
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Domino:
I do believe that LWU, in their very existence, carries some fault. Had the organization never been founded, Meridianland would probably never have been sent in. Keyword: probably.

I carry a majority of the fault for the RIA forum vandalism. Around an hour after the deed, Meridianland sent me a PM with a quote from an old message I had sent her in which I shared some harsh words in regards to her failing to ever report her operation's findings. Immediately following the quote was some copy/paste emotional "I hope this doesn't ruin our friendship" junk that she had sent to numerous people at the same time.

For those words that I had shared with her regarding her operation, and for my apparent inability to properly discipline those under my service, as well as revenge for some previous operations of my own from when I was an active defender, both in intelligence and overt military.

Edit: I take all that back if LWU is willing to take responsibility ;)
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Scardino:
I do think that we, as well, failed to curb Merid's wilder urges like when she griefed whatever region she griefed. She knew that LWU is strongly against that but she did it anyway. She also knew LWU was against forum destruction but she credited us with it anyway. Now, as far as relations between invaders and defenders go, I hope this can ease some tensions over the matter.
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And, Fedele, do kindly shut the hell up. As far as your 'help' goes, we could do without it.

LINK
 
Loving the fed/scar duality. Really!

My 3 points:

1)If the shoe was again on the defender foot: would meris selective deletion be seen as so bad. Especially by those who ordered the original.

2)I dont care what anyones done. Personal details being sued is too far. Way too far.

3)What would cure much of this problem is simple precautions. taking more care in selecting admins means no real threat of attacks like this. And then if you dont know your admins, its your fault!

To use a unnecissary analogy, mainly Scars avtar insipred- Would the Don select just anyone to be his Capo?
 
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