Just out of curiosity . . .

B

Byardkuria

TNPer
In SWA's election thread, you stated . . .

2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend. The Lexicon does no represent either belief and will accept a military mission on its on merits.
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May I enquire as to what, precisely, the merits of "not invading" Stars earlier this week were? And, if it was, indeed, not invading, what term would you use for the motion of your UN into the region, along with a handful of other UNs who immediately endorsed your UN only, all within the span of two hours?

EDIT - from the same thread -

Fulhead Land:
1)fedele isnt a member of The Lexicon really, he is a close friend of many there and a very valued ally but he isnt "Lexicon" (we like our "the" aswell BTW, thanks).
2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend. The Lexicon does no represent either belief and will accept a military mission on its on merits.

...

2)You have made it abundantly clear on many occasions you dont approve of The Lexicon. As 2 of its founders are RA members will you find being impartial hard, should these 2 people be involved in court cases?
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SO, basically, the duality thing just goes out the window when inconvenient, huh?
 
First of all, thanks for asking, I am always open to questions. why you feel the need to enquire publically and not via PM or similar I dont know but fine.

In SWA's election thread, you stated . . .


QUOTE 
2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend. The Lexicon does no represent either belief and will accept a military mission on its on merits.




May I enquire as to what, precisely, the merits of "not invading" Stars earlier this week were? And, if it was, indeed, not invading, what term would you use for the motion of your UN into the region, along with a handful of other UNs who immediately endorsed your UN only, all within the span of two hours?
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I said that The Lexicon neither invades nor defends soley. We do either. the TLA represents The Lexicon and its people, it isnt a defender army or an invader org, its just The Lexicon Army. And thats a fairly unique postition for any region to take!
As for stars, i would call that an invasion yes. but similaraly if a region we were frienldy with was invaded by raiders we might just run in and defend them. Not invader, not defender, just The Lexicon.

2)
EDIT - from the same thread -


QUOTE (Fulhead Land @ Jun 2 2006, 10:24 AM)


1)fedele isnt a member of The Lexicon really, he is a close friend of many there and a very valued ally but he isnt "Lexicon" (we like our "the" aswell BTW, thanks).
2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend. The Lexicon does no represent either belief and will accept a military mission on its on merits.

...

2)You have made it abundantly clear on many occasions you dont approve of The Lexicon. As 2 of its founders are RA members will you find being impartial hard, should these 2 people be involved in court cases? 



SO, basically, the duality thing just goes out the window when inconvenient, huh?
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Erm no it doesnt. a) fedele, or any of his aliases, is not a sworn citizen of The Lexicon (I dont think, fed will correct me if i'm wrong i'm sure :lol: ). There is no issue of duality in my statement there, i am mearly clarifying that Fed isnt a Lexiconian (and as such it would be very hard to find our souls or our "invader profits" :P)
b)As for me and Caths duality, i was asking whether he would, if made a judge, find it hard to judge us impartialy, as RAs, given his apparant dislike of our region. If there is a legal case to answer if a nation uses a puppet nation other than its TNP one to commit any act wasnt the point of my question, neither was dual citizenship!
 
Thank you for your reply - as far as the public vs. PM issue, I'm sure you are aware of the antiLexiconian sentiments in the region, and thought you might like an opportunity to assuage the populace.

If I may rebut in turn -

I said that The Lexicon neither invades nor defends soley.
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,

I apologize. When I read
2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend.
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,
I thought it said that the Lexicon doesn't invade or defend.

Also, I notice a distinct lack of response to my request for the merits of the Stars invasion, if I may now call it that. I'm pretty sure we had all figured out it counted as such, but your justifications (the aforementioned "merits") are much more interesting to me. Is it part of that regional sovereignty thing we keep hearing about? I'm fairly certain that neither the delegate or elected officials requested your aid - Leland, correct me if I'm wrong - so I would like to know how your overruning of the region intermeshes with your views on regional self-determination.

And I do apologize for the confusion regarding Fedele - his appearance was just incidental to the concerns that while you will proudly proclaim your role and activites in the Lexicon, those go out the window once actual consequences related to those actions pop up.

And while dual citizenship may not have been the point of your question, it certainly was the point of mine. But may I quote you on the matter that the Lexicon is your and Cathyy's region, Fulhead Land?

Edit - Byard's tags are broken. Also, too many R's.
 
sshhh Fedele :lol:

Thank you for your reply - as far as the public vs. PM issue, I'm sure you are aware of the antiLexiconian sentiments in the region, and thought you might like an opportunity to assuage the populace.
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Like i said, it isnt a problem, was just wondering and there lies my answer.

I thought it said that the Lexicon doesn't invade or defend.
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I'm sorry byard prehaps it wasnt clear enough for everyone here. I will state again.
The Lexicon is neither invader nor defender, its army acts for The Lexicon
Clear? peachy!

Is it part of that regional sovereignty thing we keep hearing about?
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Sorry your going to have to enlighten me on that part mate!

Also, I notice a distinct lack of response to my request for the merits of the Stars invasion, if I may now call it that. I'm pretty sure we had all figured out it counted as such, but your justifications (the aforementioned "merits") are much more interesting to me.
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I dont know, maybe its my rabid need for destruction, maybe i'm cruel and vindictive and i dont have any better ways to spend my time....or maybe that it was a good target, if you will, for training and such like. Who knows? sorry I pissed you off byard, but such is life! Maybe living in a feeder and an ADN region you've forgotten that invasion is a risk of life in NS!

so I would like to know how your overruning of the region intermeshes with your views on regional self-determination
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A region has a right to self detirmination. But everyone has a right to exist and play the game as they wish! As i said above, Invasion is a fact of life outside ofteh feeders, especially now the new influence laws have come in! deal with it!
while you will proudly proclaim your role and activites in the Lexicon, those go out the window once actual consequences related to those actions pop up.
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Pardon me! I am always proud of what myself and The Lexicon has accomplished. If you are discussing the recent charges taht were attempted against me, you will find that I broke no laws and taht the AG agrees with me. So exactly what consequences you are on about I have no idea!!!!!
But may I quote you on the matter that the Lexicon is your and Cathyy's region, Fulhead Land?
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No. The Lexicon started as the dream of the 5 founders, me and Cathyy included. But its now so much more than that. Having one of the games biggest regions and ecrtainly the most active forums in NS, its now the communitys region. The Lexicon is no longer about us. the Lexicon is about the players.

Anything else?
 
Byardkuria:
I said that The Lexicon neither invades nor defends soley.
Click to expand...
,

I apologize. When I read
2)The Lexicon doesnt invade or defend.
Click to expand...
,
I thought it said that the Lexicon doesn't invade or defend.
Click to expand...
Fulhead's choice of words may have led you to your confusion. And I'm sure it was not Fulhead's intention to mislead.

The Lexicon is neither invader or defender, in the historical manner in which it has been understood in NS. Many in TNP regard TNP as a 'defender' region. Organisations and regions often define themself as invader/raider or defender.

The Lexicon accepts neither label. The Lexicon Army is neither an invader or defender army. If it invades a region this week, it may just as easily be defending a region next. The Lexicon Army exists to serve The Lexicon, not to fit others' stereotypes.

Also, I notice a distinct lack of response to my request for the merits of the Stars invasion, if I may now call it that.  I'm pretty sure we had all figured out it counted as such, but your justifications (the aforementioned "merits") are much more interesting to me.  Is it part of that regional sovereignty thing we keep hearing about?  I'm fairly certain that neither the delegate or elected officials requested your aid - Leland, correct me if I'm wrong - so I would like to know how your overruning of the region intermeshes with your views on regional self-determination. 
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I'm not sure what you are referring to with 'regional sovereignty' that you keep hearing about. I am not going to comment in detail on any of The TLA's operations. Whether the intent was to invade Stars, or to pass through or any other reason is a matter for the senior members of the TLA, the Founders and the High Council, not the Prime Minister of Stars (apologies if I got your position in Stars wrong...?President)
 
I apologize. I could have sworn I once saw something about how you would fight to the last to remove the tyranny of another organization, whom you accused of removing the sovereignty of other regions in the guise of defense (by way of example of their underhanded tactics). A little memetic crossmojination, I suppose. And I won't even do that whole "so you DON'T particularly care about regional sovereignty" thing.

I do have to admit that I'm a bit intrigued to hear about some regions you have defended, although that may be a matter for the senior members of the TLA, the Founders, and the High Council only. And I also apologize if you thought I was casting you as a region interested only in invading, because, frankly, what you do elsewhere in NS matters not a whit to me. But, the fact remains that you invaded Stars. This may not make you (the Lexicon) an "invader" in the classic and NS-specific sense, but it does make you an invader in the literal sense, which is what I was aiming for.

And, in retrospect, you are correct that your intent in the invasion isn't germane. The fact that the invasion failed is all that matters.

Sorry - I do have to touch on this one -

Fulhead Land:
A region has a right to self detirmination. But everyone has a right to exist and play the game as they wish!
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That sounds suspiciously like "Regions have rights up to the point where they conflict with what we want to do." Might not be a bad idea to remember that both parties have those rights to exist and play as they wish, hmm?

I do admit I am impressed though - it must be a lot easier to invade when you only have to interface with the invadees by sounding tough on the RMB, rather than trying to justify yourselves in front of an entire feeder.
 
Byardkuria:
I apologize. I could have sworn I once saw something about how you would fight to the last to remove the tyranny of another organization, whom you accused of removing the sovereignty of other regions in the guise of defense (by way of example of their underhanded tactics). A little memetic crossmojination, I suppose. And I won't even do that whole "so you DON'T particularly care about regional sovereignty" thing.
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One of the fundamental aims of The Lexicon is to give players the right to run their nation as they see fit.

They don't have to be democratic to be Lexiconian but they can be if they wish. A region doesn't have to be democratic to be part of The Lexicon Confederacy, but they can be if they wish.

We believe the game encompasses far more than the 'defender is right' cliche. We support those who wish to take part in legal invading as much as we suppor those who wish to play a completely different role.

The ADN on the other hand seeks to impose its 'world view' on the game. Furthermore it seeks to do so from a completely hypocritical stance, since its own organisation and modus operandi is very far from the 'democracy' it claims.

I do have to admit that I'm a bit intrigued to hear about some regions you have defended, although that may be a matter for the senior members of the TLA, the Founders, and the High Council only.  And I also apologize if you thought I was casting you as a region interested only in invading, because, frankly, what you do elsewhere in NS matters not a whit to me.  But, the fact remains that you invaded Stars.  This may not make you (the Lexicon) an "invader" in the classic and NS-specific sense, but it does make you an invader in the literal sense, which is what I was aiming for.
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Forgive my frankness but as you are not party to any of the bodies I have mentioned you can have no real idea of the aims of The Lexicon or its army in taking up positions in Stars.

Of course as its President you are affronted by our presence there.

Whether our goal was to reduce the Delegate's influence or to simply say 'hi we're here' or whether the TLA was en-route somewhere else is as I've said a matter for The Lexicon only.

A region has a right to self detirmination. But everyone has a right to exist and play the game as they wish!
Click to expand...

That sounds suspiciously like "Regions have rights up to the point where they conflict with what we want to do." Might not be a bad idea to remember that both parties have those rights to exist and play as they wish, hmm?
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Who are you quoting there?

I do admit I am impressed though - it must be a lot easier to invade when you only have to interface with the invadees by sounding tough on the RMB, rather than trying to justify yourselves in front of an entire feeder.
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The Lexicon has no need to justify itself to anyone. I could as easily ask who are the invaders in Camelot?

I checked earlier to look for native UN's and found that of all the nations in that region the first UN (in terms of length of time in the region) is Haor Chall.

So, may I ask the NPA purpose in that region?
 
Who said anything about the ADN?

And I would dare say that, if I weren't affronted when invaders move into our region, I would have no business being the President.

My quote was from your honoured first Delegate, a few posts back. Sorry, I thought I had set the tag. I'll go do that now.

As far as what the NPA was doing in Camelot, I believe we were (successfully) repelling your invasion. As to what HC is doing there, you'd have to ask him.
 
Cathyy:
We believe the game encompasses far more than the 'defender is right' cliche. We support those who wish to take part in legal invading as much as we suppor those who wish to play a completely different role.
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Which set of laws refers to the rules of invasion? Seriously. I would like to know so that I can start suing nations and regions for illegal invasions. ;)
 
Well my understanding is that the rules have been seriously streamlined with the change to 'Regional Influence' and 'Regional Power'.

Prior to that there were a whole slew of rules governing invasions, which by NS' own admission were difficult to apply and difficult to moderate.
 
So wait, I'm confused. At what point does the right of one region to play as it wishes (re: invaders) conflict with the rights of regions that don't want to participate (re: people who made the regions for fun) if the first group interferes with the second? How can you support regional sovereignty and yet actively help invasions at the same time?
 
Many invader regions invade for some cause or something to equal effect such as The Lexicon, the NPA, TITO, DEN, Invaders, CotG and ADN. However, a cause is not really necessary and it can really all be done simply for the sake of recreation. The Lexicon likes to take control of regions and build them up, when possible, whereas ADN likes to invade those they see as being illegitimate delegates and replace them with one that they like better.

You say a native is ejected or relocated? Excuse me while I wipe a tear. While many regions like the AC invade regions and destroy the entire region, you criticize The Lexicon for coming in and often times taking them under their wing when it is obvious that The Lexicon has no surplus of domestic issues and has much to offer other regions. So they violate the sovereignty of the region... that's a great buzzword but other than that it means nothing.
 
Cathyy:
One of the fundamental aims of The Lexicon is to give players the right to run their nation as they see fit.
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Fulhead Land:
A region has a right to self detirmination. But everyone has a right to exist and play the game as they wish! As i said above, Invasion is a fact of life outside ofteh feeders, especially now the new influence laws have come in! deal with it!
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I see. So in essence, you don't care about helping out other regions, you just enjoy the thrill of either invading or defending. The true puropse of TLA is to do whatever its leaders want it to, other players be damned.

In a more interesting note, if I decided that the way I wanted to play were to create knockoff regions of The Lexicon (read, spelling, slight word changes) or to keep up a region dedicated solely to sending in people to claim that THE Lexicon sucks on your RMB, or to have regions sign an "anti-Lexiconian" pact, or to work towards your destruction, then by your own principles you'd allow that to happen, because it's how I'd want to play the game.

But I don't see how disrupting other regions is letting them "play the game as they wish."

I'm not suprised that you have so many nations in your region. Otherwise, you wouldn't let them do as they choose.

Well, you would, but not really.

Now, THE Lexicon might claim that it's neutral, but it seems to be a more imperialistic region to me.
 
When you sign up to join the UN, you do so with the understanding that you are ceding some of your Nation's Sovereignty and that decisions ultimately out of your control will directly affect your nation.

When you create a region (or join a founded region), you do so with the understanding that there is a possibility that other nations may attempt to seize control of the region, and that it is the responsibility of yourself (whether as a Founder, Delegate, or active member) to attempt to remain in control of the region.

Invasion is a part of the game. Play your role better than they play their's (which it appears Stars did) instead of complaining about evil Imperialists.
 
I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that their views on regional determination can't possibly work out with their actions with TLA.
 
In a more interesting note, if I decided that the way I wanted to play were to create knockoff regions of The Lexicon (read, spelling, slight word changes) or to keep up a region dedicated solely to sending in people to claim that THE Lexicon sucks on your RMB, or to have regions sign an "anti-Lexiconian" pact, or to work towards your destruction, then by your own principles you'd allow that to happen, because it's how I'd want to play the game.
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Of course you could do that. You wouldnt be making yourself any friends however and you could expect to see anyone you send in to take the piss be shown the door very quickly! But sure if you want to do that, if you want to try, just do it!

anyway :agree: with Heft, thats what i've been trying to say all along

I apologize. I could have sworn I once saw something about how you would fight to the last to remove the tyranny of another organization, whom you accused of removing the sovereignty of other regions in the guise of defense (by way of example of their underhanded tactics). A little memetic crossmojination, I suppose. And I won't even do that whole "so you DON'T particularly care about regional sovereignty" thing.
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Oh i see, it WAS a veiled comment about our views on the ADN!
Invaders have a right to invade regions, 'fendas have a right to defend. Thats the game that many enjoy. Regions have skirmishes for a couple of days and then they all move on. Yet with some people that doesnt happen and everything is more....sinister in motive!

I see. So in essence, you don't care about helping out other regions, you just enjoy the thrill of either invading or defending. The true puropse of TLA is to do whatever its leaders want it to, other players be damned.
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Now go up the thread and read what fedele wrote!

So wait, I'm confused. At what point does the right of one region to play as it wishes (re: invaders) conflict with the rights of regions that don't want to participate (re: people who made the regions for fun) if the first group interferes with the second? How can you support regional sovereignty and yet actively help invasions at the same time?
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It has always been widely accepted (I think its somewhere in the FAQs...) that says if you start your own region, unless you password it, you are at risk of being invaded. So, under game rules and accepted custom...
violate the sovereignty of the region... that's a great buzzword but other than that it means nothing.
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that links quite nicely doesnt it?
 
I hate to go off topic (lie) but why the hell is my name never capitalized?


Anyway, yea, imperialism is cool and stuff as long as it is done with a bit of class. Stars is a good hit and if you sit in a good hit you can expect to be hit (pardon the raiderspeak). You did a good job of defending it so... what is the point of this thread? You people take this whole invader/defender game a bit too seriously, methinks.
 
As I may have mentioned before, invader/defender (in the classic sense, which I believe is where Fed was going with that) doesn't exactly get my pressure up. But trampling my flowerbed, on the other hand (to make a strained metaphor) . . .

In any case, I think this has pretty much run its course and served its purpose. The defenders will continue to protest, the invaders will continue to claim divine right, and the people who hang out in the regions upon which their pissing contests occur will continue to fade into the background.
 
I don't think it is just the invaders claiming divine right!! Claiming moral high ground has always been the specialty of "defenders"!!

Invading/Defending is part of the game, quit whining and get on with the game!!
 
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