Formal Discussion, RA Merger/Repeal

wizardofoz01

wizardofoz01

TNPer
From Hers, for formal discussion:
Constitutional Amendment concerning the merging of the Regional Assembly and the Registered Voters.

The following changes shall be made to The Constitution of The North Pacific:

Article II, Section 2 shall be edited to the following:

In the interest of Regional security, member Nations shall be required to register with the Regional Assembly prior to voting in Regional elections or referenda, as prescribed by the following procedures:
1) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall oversee the process of voter registration, aided by the Prime Minister and the Regional off-site forum administrators.
2) Nations that reside in The North Pacific and who agree to abide by the requirements outlined in Article II, Section 1, of this Constitution will request registered voter status Regional Assembly membership at the Regional off-site forum by posting a request in a thread for that exclusive purpose, created by the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.
3) In their request, registered voters Nations will be required to post a link to their TNP member Nation and their UN member Nation at NationStates.net, and in doing so, verify that they have taken the following oath:

“I, (Forum Name), as the leader of the (Official Full National Name), pledge to obey the Constitution and Laws of The North Pacific Region, and to act as a responsible member of its society.  I understand that if my Nation leaves The North Pacific region for reasons other than participation in North Pacific Army deployments that I may be stripped of my right to vote and required to reapply.  I pledge to only register one Nation to vote in The North Pacific.  I understand that my registration of, or attempt to register, multiple Nations to vote in The North Pacific shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. In this manner, I petition the Regional Government of The North Pacific region for acceptance as a duly registered voter. membership in the Regional Assembly”
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In addition, a registered voter who wishes to exercise their right to be a member of the Regional Assembly upon applying as a Registered Voter at the time of their application for registered voter status, or at any subsequent time may request membership in the Regional Assembly by sending the following request to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.

“I, (Forum Name), as Leader of (Official Full National Name), and as a Registered Voter in The North Pacific, request membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific.”
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4) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs, the Prime Minister, the Regional off-site forum administrators, and any other support personnel of the Regional Government deemed necessary are empowered to conduct investigations and make inquiries deemed necessary for the enforcement of The North Pacific voter registration provisions outlined in this Constitution, The North Pacific Legal Code, or other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution.
5) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall expeditiously process each such voter registration request, and shall place any Nation accepted as a registered voter member of the Regional Assembly in a public listing of currently registered voters current members maintained for that purpose at the Regional off-site forum.
6) At any time, should sufficient evidence be brought to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs that proves that a registered voter Regional Assembly Member fails to meet the requirements for membership due to the deletion of a Nation from NationStates through inactivity or NationStates Moderator intervention, that Nation's name may be purged from the list of registered voters members. Should a Nation, whose voter registration membership has been purged, later be found to have been resurrected in NationStates, or that the Nation become a member of the Region once again, they may re-apply for voting rights according to the procedures in the preceding clauses of this Section. The act of expulsion or banning of a Nation from the Region prior to a trial or a referendum does not affect its status as a registered voter member until and unless a final judgment is entered in a judicial proceeding or a final certification is entered in a referendum, whichever is applicable to the given situation. The North Pacific Legal Code may provide authority to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs for the periodic purging of the names of registered voters members who are no longer eligible to vote in the Region, upon due notice because they no longer meet the requirements of this Section.
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Article II, Section 3, Clause 2 shall be edited to the following:

2) The UN Delegate for The North Pacific, the Prime Minister, any Cabinet Minister, any deputy Cabinet minister, and the Attorney General shall act only in the best interests of the Region. Should any registered voter Regional Assembly member believe that the actions of the Delegate, the Prime Minister, or any other official in the Regional Government are inappropriate, or would serve the Region better if enacted as permanent law, that Nation may draft a petition, describing the action taken, to be signed by at least one other registered voter member, and then posted in a appropriate thread in the Regional off-site forum for the Prime Minister's office. The Cabinet shall review all such petitions. After deciding on the proper action to be taken, whether it is to overturn that action or to adopt that action as permanent law, the Cabinet shall put its decision up for a referendum of the registered voters Regional Assembly. If a majority vote is cast by the registered voters Regional Assembly (with a quorum of voters participating) in favor of ratification of the Cabinet's decision, it shall be carried out immediately.
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Article II, Section 4, Clauses B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - Political, diplomatic, or military relationships shall only be established by agreement or treaty. Either the Minister of External Affairs or the Prime Minister has the power to submit a proposal to accede to or withdraw from any agreement or treaty relationship with another region, or multi-regional organization, to the Speaker for approval of such proposed action by a majority of the registered voters Regional Assembly in a referendum with a quorum participating. The voting period for the referendum shall be for five consecutive days. Should the action be approved, action to implement the proposal shall be taken by the Prime Minister, the Minister of External Affairs, or the Cabinet of the Regional Government, as appropriate in the circumstances.
C - Provisions for the establishment of a commonwealth relationship, a protectorate relationship, a colony relationship or other political relationships with other regions by treaty or agreement shall be established in the North Pacific Legal Code. A treaty or agreement that provides for establishment of a commonwealth relationship shall expressly provide for the rights of nations of the other region to acquire full and equal citizenship and registered voter status Regional Assembly Membership in The North Pacific under the provisions of this Constitution.
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Article III, Section 1, Clauses C through F shall be edited to the following:

C - All Nations who have registered to vote joined the Regional Assembly under the provisions of Article II, Section 2, of this Constitution and who reside in The North Pacific, or are active members of The North Pacific Army or The North Pacific Intelligence Agency, shall be entitled to submit a single vote for each election regardless of UN status. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations.
D - Only Nations who are registered to vote members of the Regional Assembly when the voting period commences shall be entitled to vote, which shall take place exclusively at the Regional off-site forum.
E - Nations that register to vote join the Regional Assembly after a voting period commences shall not be able to vote in the election of offices or positions under this Constitution, or on referenda as to any other matter subject to a vote of registered voters or of the Regional Assembly as provided in this Constitution, or The North Pacific Legal Code, until the next election or referendum that occurs after that Nation's registration is validated and accepted.
F - The quorum requirement for registered voters Regional Assembly members in referenda on motions to approve, ratify or confirm actions, nominations or appointments, and on bills to enact laws, do not apply to the elections of the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council for a full term, or for any necessary runoff elections.
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Article III, Section 2, Clause 2, Paragraphs B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - In the event of a vacancy in the Office of Prime Minister, the Cabinet shall nominate a new Prime Minister, from among any of the Nations that meet the eligibility requirements for election, within seven days. The designation of the Nation nominated by the Cabinet is to be confirmed in a referendum of registered voters the Regional Assembly, in which a quorum participates, through a motion of confirmation. The nomination and referendum election shall be conducted as expeditiously as practicable. The Nation nominated for Prime Minister shall meet all qualifications for the office, and the nominated Nation is subject to any and all limitations for service provided in this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code. During the interim period between the creation of the vacancy in the office of Prime Minister and the confirmation and installation of a successor to the office of Prime Minister, the Cabinet shall collectively have the authority to exercise the duties and responsibilities of the office.
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there may be disclosure of confidential information in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceeding. The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the registered voters Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
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Article III, Section 2, Clause 3, Paragraph C shall be edited to the following:

C - The Minister shall be responsible for overseeing the voter Regional Assembly registration process and procedures in conjunction and with the support of, the Prime Minister, the Regional off-site forum administrators, and other support personnel within the Regional Government, as designated by either the Prime Minister and/or the Cabinet of the North Pacific Regional Government.
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Article III, Section 5, Clause 3 shall be edited to the following:

3) Where a vacancy occurs in any Cabinet Ministry and no Deputy for that Minister is then installed in office, the Prime Minister shall appoint a Deputy Minister who is qualified to serve as a Cabinet Minister, subject to a confirmation referendum of the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly. In that instance, the appointee shall serve as Minister on an acting basis until the referendum election is completed. If confirmed as a result of the referendum, that appointee shall thereupon assume the position of Minister and Cabinet member for the interim until the next election for that office. A vote of the registered voters Regional Assembly is required to approve a motion for confirmation of such an appointment by the Prime Minister. If, after seven days, a quorum of the registered voters Regional Assembly has participated and at least 50 per cent of those voting approve of the motion to confirm the appointment, the appointee shall remain in office to serve on an interim basis until the next election. If the motion for confirmation fails to receive such approval, then the appointee is not confirmed to serve as that Cabinet Minister, and the Prime Minister shall promptly propose another nominee for Deputy Minister, who shall act then as minister, subject to approval of a motion for confirmation in a referendum by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly.
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Article IV, Section 1, Clauses A through C shall be edited to the following:

A - There shall be a Regional Assembly, composed of those Registered Voters who elect to participate as members. The right of registered voters to become members and participate in the business of the Regional Assembly may not be impaired or denied, except to the extent that is imposed as a term of punishment by the Court of the North Pacific.
B A - The registered voters who elect membership in the Regional Assembly shall have the authority to adopt all laws, amendments to this Constitution, or other motions and proposals, except as otherwise expressly delegated in this Constitution to another governmental authority. Registered voters who hold other offices in the government may participate and vote as members of the Regional Assembly.
C B - The Regional Assembly shall be chaired by a Speaker, who is chosen by the registered voters Regional Assembly in an election for a three month term at the same time as elections for the Cabinet and Delegate.
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*Note: All other clauses in the section referenced above are to be re-lettered to correspond with their new positions.

Article IV, Section 3 shall be edited to the following:

A - Any registered voter of The North Pacific member of the Regional Assembly may submit a bill to the Regional Assembly as a proposed law or submit a proposal for a constitutional amendment. Proposals shall be submitted to the Speaker.
B - The Speaker shall select the proposals to be voted on by the registered voters Regional Assembly. Bills and proposals that are selected for consideration shall not be frivolous. The subject matter of bills selected for consideration shall have as its object the implementation of this Constitution, the adoption, amendment, or repeal of provisions of The North Pacific Legal Code, or involve any other actions that are necessary and proper and that are authorized by this Constitution, The North Pacific Legal Code, or the other laws of The North Pacific. The Speaker shall not exercise the authority conferred in this provision in an arbitrary or capricious manner. The Speaker may confer with the Prime Minister, the Ministers of the Cabinet, or with the Chief Justice, for comment on a submitted bill or proposal.
C - During the 21 day period following submission, the registered voter Nation who submitted a proposal may revise or withdraw the proposed bill. Any proposed bill not selected for a referendum vote of the Regional Assembly within 21 days of submission shall be declared a dead bill.
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Article IV, Section 4, Clause A shall be edited to the following:

A - Bills and proposals selected by the Speaker will be voted on in a referendum of the registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly.
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Article IV, Section 5 shall be edited to the following:

A - In order for any action to be adopted, a quorum of registered voters (or of registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) must participate in the referendum. Should a quorum not be achieved for any proposed action by the registered voters (or by registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) at the end of the voting period for a referendum, the proposed action will fail and not be adopted.
B - Quorum shall consist either a total of 20 legitimate votes cast by registered voters Regional Assembly members or be that number of legitimate votes cast by registered voters Regional Assembly Members that is equal to six per cent of the total number of registered voters (or registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, as applicable) at the time the referendum commences, whichever is greater.
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Article IV, Section 6, Clause B shall be edited to the following:

B - At the end of that week, a second referendum vote will then be held and, if the bill receives 60 per cent approval of the vote of the registered voters with a quorum participating, the bill shall be adopted as a law. If the bill fails to receive 60 per cent approval after the second vote, it will be declared a dead bill.
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Article IV, Section 8, Clause A shall be edited to the following:

A - The Speaker, with assistance of the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs and the Prime Minister, shall be responsible for supervising referendum voting of any bill or proposal for a constitutional amendment selected for a vote of the members of the Regional Assembly, or of any other matters submitted to a referendum of all registered voters.
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Article IV, Section 9 shall be edited to the following:

A - The registered voters Regional Assembly shall elect a Security Council. The Speaker shall serve as the presiding officer of the Council. The Council shall have authority to endorse or otherwise approve such actions of an urgent or emergency nature that involve regional security other than the adoption of legislative bills and constitutional amendments as are specified in this Constitution and The North Pacific Legal Code. Any action by the Council does not supercede any requirement for approval by a referendum within the Regional Assembly or of the registered voters, but serves as approval for action prior to such a referendum.
B - The Security Council shall be composed of not fewer than five registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, elected for three month terms at the same time as the Cabinet, Speaker, and the UN Delegate. The total number of Council members shall be determined by law, but shall not be less than five nor more than that whole number which equals ten percent of the total number of registered voters Regional Assembly Members at the time the nomination period for elections commence. The members of the Council shall be elected by plurality vote of the registered voters Regional Assembly in the manner prescribed by law.
C - Registered Voters Regional Assembly Members elected to serve on the Security Council shall arrange their affairs during their term of office on the Council so that they may participate in any matter brought to the Council upon notice not to exceed 24 hours. A quorum for the actions of the Security Council shall be not fewer than three registered voters Regional Assembly members as determined by law. The Speaker shall not have a vote in Security Council matters except in the case of a tie, but the Speaker shall count to the establishment of a quorum for a particular matter.
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Article V, Section 2, Clause B shall be edited to the following:

B - The Chief Justice and the Associate Justices shall serve a term of six months. The Chief Justice and the Associate Justices shall be registered voters Members of the Regional Assembly who shall hold no other office during their tenure as judges.
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Article V, Section 2, Clause D shall be edited to the following:

D - The appointment must thereafter be approved at a referendum, which shall extend for seven days, of the registered voters of The North Pacific Regional Assembly, with the participation of a quorum, by at least a 50 per cent vote in favor of a motion for confirmation. The nomination and referendum election shall be conducted as expeditiously as practicable. If the motion for confirmation fails to receive such approval, then the appointee is not confirmed to serve as a judicial officer, and the Prime Minister shall promptly propose another nominee, with the advice and consent of the Cabinet, who shall act as a judicial officer, subject to approval of a motion for confirmation in a referendum by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly.
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Article V, Section 4, Clauses B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - All criminal trials shall include a randomly selected trial jury of five registered voters Regional Assembly Members drawn from the list of registered voters Regional Assembly Members.
C - A jury shall have the power to recommend a proportionate punishment to any conviction to the judicial officer, who shall impose such recommendation as the sentence of the Court provided that the sentence is proportionate to the offense in scope and duration. Any sentence may include the suspension of any or all of a registered voter Regional Assembly member's rights to participate in the government as a registered voter Regional Assembly, to hold office, to participate in the North Pacific Army, to participate in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency, or otherwise, as deemed appropriate to the circumstances.
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Article V, Section 5, Clause D shall be edited to the following:

D - Failure of a Nation to Observe Its Oath of Office or its Oath as a Registered Voter Regional Assembly Member.
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Article V, Section 7, Clauses A and B shall be edited to the following:

A - Any registered voter Regional Assembly Member may bring charges against a Cabinet-level position if they believe the officeholder has violated this Constitution or partaken in other gross misconduct. The registered voter Nation must provide enough evidence to a Grand Jury to warrant a trial.
B - A panel of five registered voters Regional Assembly members who are not holding a Cabinet-level position and who are randomly selected from a jury pool shall be selected by the Chief Justice to review the evidence given. If the Chief Justice is being impeached, the Prime Minister will randomly select the Grand Jury. If any jury member expresses a clear bias, they shall be excluded from the Grand Jury and replaced with another juror. The Grand Jury shall have not more than 96 hours to review and weigh the evidence cited in the complaint, and determine whether a trial is warranted.
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Article VI, Section 2, Clauses 2 through 4 shall be edited to the following:

2) The Judicial Branch or the Prime Minister can call a referendum vote of the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly for the purpose of approving a motion for immediate expulsion by the posting of the case and evidence of needed action in a thread within the Regional off-site Forum and a notification of the motion and referendum on the Regional message board at Nationstates.net at any time.
3) If more than half of the registered voters Regional Assembly Members who cast a vote in that thread, with a quorum participating, vote in favor of an ejection within a 24 hour period, then the Nation will be ejected by the Delegate.
4) In the event of explicit spamming of the Regional offsite forum or the Regional civil headquarters message board at Nationstates.net, a Nation may be ejected by the Delegate without a prior referendum vote if the action is countersigned by the Prime Minister upon the posting of the offense by a registered voter Regional Assembly Member, and a second to the immediate expulsion motion by another registered voter Regional Assembly Member. However, the subject Nation of the expulsion action shall have the right to a post-ejection referendum vote by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly on a motion to ratify the ejection. The vote shall be to ratify the action to expel, and the expulsion shall be ratified if within seven days, at least 50 per cent of the registered voters Regional Assembly with a quorum participating, approve the motion in a referendum.
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Article VII, Section 1 shall be edited to the following:

This Constitution may be amended as necessary. Amendments may be proposed by any registered voter Regional Assembly member to the Speaker, in the manner described in Article III.
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Article VII, Section 2, Clause 1, Paragraph B shall be edited to the following:

B - Appoval by the Regional Assembly. A proposal for a constitutional amendment is adopted and ratified as part of this Constitution if, at a referendum of the Regional Assembly in which a quorum of registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly participate, the proposal garners approval by no less than two-thirds of the votes cast during the voting period.
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In view of the proposed change in the first oath, the second oath would be unnecessary and should also be marked with strikethrough.
 
Oops. Thanks, Schnauzer, I'll fix that.

Ack - I just realized I mod-edited Wizard's post. Sorry about that.

And I suppose a short summary would be in order for those who weren't following the initial drafting....

What this amendment will do is effectively merge the Registered Voters and Regional Assembly into a single body. Members in this new RA would be able to participate in the duties of an RV and an RA - vote in elections, propose/vote on laws, serve on juries, etc. The reason behind it is that it creates too much hassle for newcomers to have to apply to both positions, and for the MoIIA to keep two separate records - most RV's are in the RA anyway, so this shouldn't create too much of an impact, other than lightening the load on an already overburdened Internal Affairs Ministry (Having served there once, I know this all too well).

Concerns about this included the possibility of increased inactivity and the inflated membership count. It was mentioned that due to the sudden influx of people able to vote on laws, the legislative system might become bogged down with "dead weight." Solutions to this could be to change the quorum requirements, to prevent minorities from taking over the system, and activity clauses (which had been brought up before), in order to encourage participation in the system.

I personally do not believe either of these measures are needed at this time. The current quorum is set at 20 votes, or 5% of all RA members. This proposal would make all government officials RA members, and their votes alone would count for a quorum. We would need at least 400 RA members in order for the quorum to be higher than 20 votes - a number which I think I can safely say we're never going to reach. As for the activity clauses, concerns were raised about possible infringements against the Declaration of Rights, so that particular line of thought was dropped until a later time.

If anyone has any questions, concerns or comments, that's what this topic is for. I think you've got about a week to post 'em.
 
Sounds good to me in principle. I'll give a thorough going-over and then decide if I support the measure as written.

R
 
I think we all know of my opinion that this is an overwhelmingly drastic, knee-jerk solution to what is in truth a minor problem that should be solved by in-depth constitutional analysis and tweaking rather than simply bashing away central portions of the democratic system of TNP.
 
Russo-Princepolis:
I think we all know of my opinion that this is an overwhelmingly drastic, knee-jerk solution to what is in truth a minor problem that should be solved by in-depth constitutional analysis and tweaking rather than simply bashing away central portions of the democratic system of TNP.
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It's not really bashing away, though - the only thing we're really removing is that extra list of people, and that short little copy-and-paste bit. We've worked fine without a separate Regional Assembly before - I don't see why we can't again.
 
I simply believe that all that is in order is a great deal of refinement of the Constitution rather than simply cutting out segments of the government. In the short-term this, I'm sure will serve TNP just fine, but in the long-run, we will have lost a valuable opportunity to better the regional government.
 
The only difference between what Hersfold has proposed and what I prefer is that his proposal keeps the class of registered voters with automatic membership in the regional assembly and I prefer returning the system to where there are registered voters without a regional assembly (--which was the way the system was structured prior to the s11 constitutional convention).

It's a matter of having a framework of registered voters or of having a regional assembly. Some people seem to have this strong need to have the formality of a formal legislative-sounding organ; a need that I do not share.
 
Well, what I want to say right now is I don't want to hear anyone supporting this proposal later saying that there is a problem with activity in the RA.

Many people including myself have bemoaned RA participation; however I hope that supporters of this proposal realize that adding more people into the RA will fundamentally result in some of these added people not participating. Therefore, everyone should at least anticipate that there won't suddenly be massive participation as a result of this proposal.

Secondly, I have an issue about the people who, in theory, want to be RV but not RA members. The original logic of why these two groups were separate was as follows: some people may be interested enough in the region to participate in votes and such but who may not be interested in legislative wrangling. Now I know that in practice there aren't many RV's that are NOT in the RA, but this does not mean we should take AWAY this option without careful consideration. My only concern is that, if we are to truly encourage participation and inclusiveness, merging the RV and RA "status" will essentially DISCOURAGE anyone out there who is not interested in legislative debate.

This problem would be compounded if we passed any activity clauses in addition to this proposal. That would be tantamount to saying there is no room on this board for those who wish to participate on a basic level (the old RV status) but not on a more involved level (the old RA status).
 
Just a technical note here.. Since there are 21 days for this formal discussion and we are nearing elections, I'm leaning towards not counting the actual election days as part of the 21. My reasoning is that most people might not be very focused on this issue.

Specifically, since this was started on Jan 16, 21 days later would be Feb 6. Since voting occurs from Feb 1-8, then I would be willing to extend the deadline until Feb 13th IF people still want to have their say on this.
 
Wizard, keep in mind you have 21 days to formally "select" the proposal, not that it has to be submitted to the Cabinet on the same you select iy. That provides the author/sponsor a chance to make any final fixes within the 20 days they get for that purpose, and make sure there is a consensus about those fixes.

As it stands, how quickly the new Cabinet would be in office would also depend on whether any runoff elections would be required or not. So not even February 8th can be a given until it is knowm whether any runoffs will or will not be required.

Finally, I would suggest to Hersfold that he double-check the grammar for each change (especially since registered voters are a plural noun, and regional assembly is a collective singular noun -- verbs may need to be tinkered with.
 
Yes, it does depend in part on where debate is headed. I would set a date but at the same time I would be loathe to set a date that turns out to be too soon.
 
Russo-Princepolis:
I simply believe that all that is in order is a great deal of refinement of the Constitution rather than simply cutting out segments of the government. In the short-term this, I'm sure will serve TNP just fine, but in the long-run, we will have lost a valuable opportunity to better the regional government.
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We're not really going to be able to refine the Constitution and our government without cutting some major parts out. We might as well start with the most obvious bits of unneeded bureaucracy.

Schnauzer, your argument is basically just wordplay - either way, the combined body this would create would do the same thing. More people seem to prefer the more official term "Regional Assembly", so that's what it was changed to.

And wizard, I don't really mind when this gets voted on - whatever you think is best.
 
The trick is to do it in a way that doesn't do too much cutting. Changes have repercussions that may be unforseen. But that's true of any changes.

As far as I can see, if there is to be a merger of the RA/RV, it's a matter of language and editing terms, not a wholesale overhaul.

R
 
Apart from the technical details, I'd still like to raise the issue again of what happens to that category of people who want limited participation in TNP.

This category of people currently have a "home" -- that is Rv without being RA. In my mind, it is moot that this designation is not used by more people -- it is there because it protects the rights of those who wish to regulate their participation levels.

Personally, when I refer to participation on these boards, I am saying that I wish we had more people contributing to the debate of legislation. A merger would make things easier technically (for the MIIA, for example), but I am still worried it takes away the current designation that we have.

We want participation but at the same time I think we should be leery of saying that newcomers need to be "all or nothing" participants.
 
I'd like to thank Hersfold for his efforts in developing this proposal. It has my full support, with the caveat that should it be passed into law, I will vehemently oppose any RA activity requirements that may be contemplated.

A good government makes it easy for nations to participate. I see this proposal as a measure that makes it easier for nations to engage in legislative discussions if they wish to.
 
Great Bights Mum:
A good government makes it easy for nations to participate. I see this proposal as a measure that makes it easier for nations to engage in legislative discussions if they wish to.
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And if they don't want to, then they don't really have to. The good thing about where the quorums are currently set is that those people won't really need to vote on the bills. True, we will have some "dead weight" that's not doing anything, but our system is set up so that we won't have to drag it around with us for every vote.

And this way, if they get hit with the idea for the perfect proposal, they can submit it and participate in the debate without having to worry about paperwork.
 
After some thought, I would probably support this bill but as GBM said, I do know that this bill plus an activity clauses proposal would wreak some havoc.
 
The two issues should be addressed separately.

There is far more of a consensus about the merging of the RA/RV than there is about acttivity cluases.

While I expect to support Hersfold's proposal, and while I would support inactivity provisions, I'm not in favor of activity clauses and I would likely oppose a wider bill that includes them.
 
Thanks for the support. :D

Activity clauses should definitely be held separate. Although I do admit this would create massive problems should they ever be enforced against the RA... but I don't want this thread to go off on a tangent, so I'll just stop there. Hopefully it won't have to come up.
 
On an administrative note, I have decided for now to schedule the vote for this resolution on February 21.

This gives almost a full two weeks after elections for any additional comments to be made.
 
Taking the role of devil's advocate - what will merging the RA and RV accomplish?

Will it simplify things and/or will it do anything to increase activity/participation?


Granted - I favor the merger, but will an activity clause be considered compulsive democracy (which cannot be be enforced) resulting in exclusivity?
 
I was commenting upon the earlier comments made by others pertaining to activity clauses.
 
Combining the two will eliminate a large amount of unneeded bureaucracy that we currently have clogging up the Constitiution and government system. As most RV's are RA members anyway, it makes very little sense to require them to fill out an extra bit of paperwork, and for the MoIIA to keep another list of nations, both of which only cause additional confusion and red tape.

As for increasing participation, I highly doubt it, but I suppose it is possible that removing this will make the whole thing seem less daunting to newbies, resulting in a slightly higher membership. You never know.

If activity clauses were to be enforced, it could create difficulties, yes. If such a measure were neccessary, however, I'm certain we could find some way to manage it that wouldn't violate the Declaration of Rights.

Hope that helps.
 
Far be it from me to point out controversial items but upon careful consideration, merging the RA/RV, or rather abolishing the RV status classifications would make us look quite a bit like another deceased regime I can think of.

R
 
Romanoffia:
Far be it from me to point out controversial items but upon careful consideration, merging the RA/RV, or rather abolishing the RV status classifications would make us look quite a bit like another deceased regime I can think of.

R
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:mad: Roman, keep in mind who you're speaking to. I would be the LAST person to destroy the democracy we've worked for in this region.
 
Hersfold:
Romanoffia:
Far be it from me to point out controversial items but upon careful consideration, merging the RA/RV, or rather abolishing the RV status classifications would make us look quite a bit like another deceased regime I can think of.

R
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:mad: Roman, keep in mind who you're speaking to. I would be the LAST person to destroy the democracy we've worked for in this region.
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I apologize if that is the impression you drew.

I was implying simply that I have reservations about altering the consitution to rearrange RA/RV status into such a fashion that it would no longer resemble the current arrangements.

One has to remember the two-tiered system was established for a purpose. It allows for different levels of voter involvement, one for those who wish to take and active and metered role, and another for those who wish to participate in general elections only.

By combining the RA/RV into one unit will most likely have the effect of reducing participation. Plus, it doesn't look very good to have a just one voter pool. Some people may choose not to participate at all because being in the RA does require a certain amout of attentiveness that simply being an RA doesn't.

Then there's the other effects on the arrangement of the constitution that might occur and will occur during editing.

Also, most importantly, what happens if some wise-acre comes along and succeeds in convincing the RA that the total number of people in the RA should be limited to a maximum number? Without a general pool of voters in the RV class to fall back on, the results would no doubt be disasterous and lead to destabilization of the government and the region.

The current arrangement has lead to a very stable situation that could be the contributing factor to the stability we are now enjoying. By combining RA and RV you will just shift the transients in the RV role to the RA role, which would then require further amendments to the Constitution to alter quorum rules, etc.

And yes, the essential abolition of the Registered Voter classification even by absorption into the Regional Assembly does have the outward and general appearance of an act of 'consolidation' - which combining the RA and RV would actually be by definition.

I just don't think it's a good idea.
 
Also, most importantly, what happens if some wise-acre comes along and succeeds in convincing the RA that the total number of people in the RA should be limited to a maximum number? Without a general pool of voters in the RV class to fall back on, the results would no doubt be disasterous and lead to destabilization of the government and the region.
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Not sure how that would make a difference... only the RA would be able to vote on it anyway.

And as for quorums, the government is large enough to cover any quorum... assuming of course that everyone voted, but if they're in office they should be active enough to do so.

Apology accepted. Sorry I took it that way.
 
Romanoffia:
One has to remember the two-tiered system was established for a purpose. It allows for different levels of voter involvement, one for those who wish to take and active and metered role, and another for those who wish to participate in general elections only.
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This is precisely the reason why I would be opposed to any "activity clauses" for the RA if this proposal passes.

In addition, in a preivous post, I believe I also raised the issue of where "non-debating" RV's could go. At the same time, I can see the other side -- non-debating RV's often apply to the RA right now ANYWAY.

If I recall correctly, quorum is 20 members or 6% of the RA, whichever is larger. Thus, we would have to have an RA of several hundred in order for establishing quorum to be a problem.

It might be a good idea to ascertain how many non-RA RV's are actually present right now, but I doubt we would reach several hundred RA members EVER. Even if there are boatloads of inactive RA members, those people should be purged from the list at least once every few Cabinet terms or so.
 
I doubt we could ever impose activity clauses on registered voters, or on regional assembly-registered voters under this proposal, with the protections given under the Declaration of Rights.
The possibility exists that something might be possible due to extended inactivity periods, but since that area is outside of this proposal as drafted by Hersfold, let's delay that discussion to another time.
 
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