Regional Assembly Repeal

Hersfold

Hersfold

TNPer
One of the many problems with our current government, as I'm sure you'll all agree, is that we've got way too much bureaucracy clogging things up. If we're to get anywhere in NationStates, we need to make like plumbers and remove the clogs. Starting with the very people I'm speaking to.

The Regional Assembly serves no purpose that could not be served by a simple RV. We discuss and vote on laws, but there are no special requirements for RA membership other than that you must be an RV first. You can even apply for the two posts at the same time. All this means is a load of unneccessary paperwork for the MoIIA. The RA also adds another Cabinet Position, that of Speaker. I've heard people complain about having too much government - might as well start there. Legislation can be run by the Court Justices. (Sorry, wizard, I'm not sure how attached you are to your job).

So, I propose this amendment to the RA, as hopefully a final vote:

Constitutional Amendment relating to removal of the Regional Assembly

The following sections of The North Pacific Constitution are hereby repealed:

Article II, Section 2, Clause 3:

In addition, a registered voter who wishes to exercise their right to be a member of the Regional Assembly upon applying as a Registered Voter at the time of their application for registered voter status, or at any subsequent time may request membership in the Regional Assembly by sending the following request to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.

“I, (Forum Name), as Leader of (Official Full National Name), and as a Registered Voter in The North Pacific, request membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific.”
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Article IV, Section 1 (Click link for text)

The following sections of The North Pacific Constitution are hereby amended to read the following:

Article II, Section 3, Clause 3:

3) No government official shall have the authority to change the designated off-site forum for regional governance without approval of a majority of the members of the Regional Assembly. Registered Voters
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Article III, Section 1, Clauses A - B:

A - Procedures for the election of the UN Delegate, the UN Vice Delegate, the Prime Minister, the other Ministers of the Cabinet, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council shall be as provided by this Constitution and by law in The North Pacific Legal Code.
B - Elections and referendums shall take place on The North Pacific Regional off-site forum. Elections for the UN Delegate, the UN Vice Delegate, the Prime Minister, the other elected Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council, ...
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Clauses E - G:

E - Nations that register to vote after a voting period commences shall not be able to vote in the election of offices or positions under this Constitution, or on referenda as to any other matter subject to a vote of registered voters or of the Regional Assembly as provided in this Constitution, or The North Pacific Legal Code, until the next election or referendum that occurs after that Nation's registration is validated and accepted.
F - The quorum requirement for registered voters in referenda on motions to approve, ratify or confirm actions, nominations or appointments, and on bills to enact laws, do not apply to the elections of the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council for a full term, or for any necessary runoff elections.
G - Candidates must adhere to the provisions on term limitations provided in Article III, Section 3, of this Constitution. If and when elected, candidates automatically resign any office they may then hold, other than as a member of the Regional Assembly, unless they have been elected to a consecutive term in that same office.
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Article IV, Sections 3 - 6:

Section 3. Legislation.

A - Any registered voter of The North Pacific may submit a bill to the Regional Assembly as a proposed law or submit a proposal for a constitutional amendment. Proposals shall be submitted to the Speaker Court Justices.
B - The Speaker Court Justices shall select the proposals to be voted on by the registered voters. Bills and proposals that are selected for consideration shall not be frivolous. The subject matter of bills selected for consideration shall have as its object the implementation of this Constitution, the adoption, amendment, or repeal of provisions of The North Pacific Legal Code, or involve any other actions that are necessary and proper and that are authorized by this Constitution, The North Pacific Legal Code, or the other laws of The North Pacific. The Speaker Court Justices shall not exercise the authority conferred in this provision in an arbitrary or capricious manner. The Speaker Court Justices may confer with the Prime Minister, or the Ministers of the Cabinet, or with the Chief Justice, for comment on a submitted bill or proposal.
C - During the 21 day period following submission, the registered voter who submitted a proposal may revise or withdraw the proposed bill. Any proposed bill not selected for a referendum vote of the Regional Assembly Registered Voters within 21 days of submission shall be declared a dead bill.

Section 4. Adoption of Laws by Regional Assembly Referendum.

A - Bills and proposals selected by the Speaker Court Justices will be voted on in a referendum of the registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly.
B - A legislative bill is adopted as a law if, at a referendum in which a quorum of the Regional Assembly Registered Voters participate, the bill garners no less than 60 per cent approval of the votes cast during the voting period of one week.
C- The Speaker Court Justices shall provide a notice of the referendum on the bill which shall include the date on which voting shall commence after a notice and comment period on the bill (in its final form) of at least 24 hours, but not to exceed seven days.

Section 5. Quorum.

A - In order for any action to be adopted, a quorum of registered voters (or of registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) must participate in the referendum. Should a quorum not be achieved for any proposed action by the registered voters (or by registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) at the end of the voting period for a referendum, the proposed action will fail and not be adopted.
B - Quorum shall consist either a total of 20 legitimate votes cast by registered voters or be that number of legitimate votes cast by registered voters that is equal to six per cent of the total number of registered voters (or registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, as applicable) at the time the referendum commences, whichever is greater.

Section 6. Procedure for Certain Legislative Bills.

A - If, at a referendum, a bill receives more than 50 per cent, but less than 60 per cent, support of the vote, with the participation of a quorum, then consideration of the proposed bill will move to a debate thread at the Regional off-site forum where members of the Regional Assembly the Registered Voters may further debate the bill for one week.
B - At the end of that week, a second referendum vote will then be held and, if the bill receives 60 per cent approval of the vote of the registered voters with a quorum participating, the bill shall be adopted as a law. If the bill fails to receive 60 per cent approval after the second vote, it will be declared a dead bill.
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Article IV, Section 8, Clause A:

Section 8. Roles of Officials.

A - The Speaker, with assistance of the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs and the Prime Minister, shall be responsible for supervising referendum voting of any bill or proposal for a constitutional amendment selected for a vote of the members of the Regional Assembly, or of any other matters submitted to a referendum of all registered voters.
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Article IV, Section 9:

Section 9. Security Council.

A - The registered voters shall elect a Security Council. The Speaker Candidate garnering the most votes shall serve as the presiding officer of the Council. The Council shall have authority to endorse or otherwise approve such actions of an urgent or emergency nature that involve regional security other than the adoption of legislative bills and constitutional amendments as are specified in this Constitution and The North Pacific Legal Code. Any action by the Council does not supercede any requirement for approval by a referendum within the Regional Assembly or of the registered voters, but serves as approval for action prior to such a referendum.
B - The Security Council shall be composed of not fewer than five registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, elected for three month terms at the same time as the Cabinet, Speaker, and the UN Delegate. The total number of Council members shall be determined by law, but shall not be less than five nor more than that whole number which equals ten percent of the total number of registered voters at the time the nomination period for elections commence. The members of the Council shall be elected by plurality vote of the registered voters in the manner prescribed by law.
C - Registered Voters elected to serve on the Security Council shall arrange their affairs during their term of office on the Council so that they may participate in any matter brought to the Council upon notice not to exceed 24 hours. A quorum for the actions of the Security Council shall be not fewer than three registered voters as determined by law. The Speaker shall not have a vote in Security Council matters except in the case of a tie, but the Speaker shall count to the establishment of a quorum for a particular matter.
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Please let me know if I missed anything containing the words "Regional Assembly" or "Speaker".
 
This would achieve the result I hoped but the wrong way around!!

I'd prefer the RA was retained and was filled by RV's!! I believe we need a coordinated body for legislative processes!!

I'd also prefer that the Speker was retained as having Court Justices running legislative process would merge the judiciatry and the government which I'd prefer to avoid!!

I don't have the time to go through the constitution sections you cited but I agree with your changes in principle!! we do need to reduce the bureacracy and having an RV list only rather than RA and RV is a step in the right direction!! I just don't want the "Regional Assembly" level of government to lose its identity!!
 
Poltsamaa:
This would achieve the result I hoped but the wrong way around!!

I'd prefer the RA was retained and was filled by RV's!! I believe we need a coordinated body for legislative processes!!

I'd also prefer that the Speker was retained as having Court Justices running legislative process would merge the judiciatry and the government which I'd prefer to avoid!!

I don't have the time to go through the constitution sections you cited but I agree with your changes in principle!! we do need to reduce the bureacracy and having an RV list only rather than RA and RV is a step in the right direction!! I just don't want the "Regional Assembly" level of government to lose its identity!!
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I absolutely agree. The proposal as written would essentially cause an overlap of the judicial and legislative branch.

The RA is neccessary as it is the legislative branch. Essentially, we need to keep the RA by simply eliminating the 'Registered Voter' classification. Anyone who wants to partake in the governance of the regions can take the time to become a member of the Regional Assembly and then partake in general elections/legislation under the classification of 'Regional Assembly'.

The Registered Voter classification may be prone to sudden influxes of voters who only show up in the region to vote (loading of RV roles) and then vanish. If everyone who wishes to vote was required to be a member of the RA and to maintain a certain level of activity, then it would go a long way in making the region even more secure. It would do this by having voters (RA) actively participating over a period of time instead of just showing up to vote in a general election and then evaporating.


Roman
 
I agree to the idea. However, I am currently undecided on whether it should be the RV's dissolved or the RA itself. However, I do agree with Polts that it should not be the Justices presiding over the votes. Either have the Speaker do it or else a minister.

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Edit: Sorry Roman, didn't see your post. I agree with you on that.

Also, does it specifically have to be called the Regional Assembly? Perhaps a new name could happen. If not, then ok.
 
I would not favor the abolition of the Speaker's office with the abolition of the Regional Assembly as proposed in its current form. The Speaker could still oversee and serve as moderator of the legislative process through the registered voter direct legislative system, and remain as the chair of the Security Council.

The Registered Voter direct legislativ system worked very effectively (with a high proportion of turnout) prior to the creation of regional assembly by the constitutional convention. The primary reason for the Speaker;s position was not the Regional Assembly, but rather to make possible for the constitutional convention to establish an independent judiciary at that time. My pre-convention draft in fact called for the creation of a Speaker's Office without the creation of a regional assembly or similar body.

I am of the opinion that a much higher level of participation will occur if the direct legislative system is restored in place of the regional assembly, but with the retention of the Speaker's office as the moderator of the legislative process. However, language may need to be added to make clear that the Speaker is the administrative head of the legislative system, as the Chief Justice is for the Court, and the Prime Minister is for th Cabinet. Such language could then re-inforce the separation of executive/administrative, legislative, and judicial responsibilities in our system of governance.
 
The name Regional Assembly is not vital, but a body of its ilk is, in my opinion!! Roman's mentioning of the activity requirement for members of the RA further illustrates the advantage of converting RV status into membership of the RA or whatever it ends up being called!!
 
If they want to be part of the process then they should be active like the rest of us and actually be part of it.
 
GoalVA:
When I said "I'll get my machete", I was joking ;)
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It came up the other day in IRC, and I was never fond of having a separate body to begin with, for this very reason. The RV's will effectively all become RA members, even if they haven't applied, and everyone will just lose the title "Regional Assembly", while doing the same functions they once did. (Debating laws, etc.)

I don't mind keeping the Speaker, because what you brought up, Polts, does make sense - we should keep all branches of government separate. So would he then become the Speaker of the Registered Voters?

Roman:
The Registered Voter classification may be prone to sudden influxes of voters who only show up in the region to vote (loading of RV roles) and then vanish. If everyone who wishes to vote was required to be a member of the RA and to maintain a certain level of activity, then it would go a long way in making the region even more secure. It would do this by having voters (RA) actively participating over a period of time instead of just showing up to vote in a general election and then evaporating.
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That's going back to the Activity Clauses thing... right now, I think we just need to "machete" out the bureaucracy to make things easier to look at before we start dealing with that.
 
Personaly the name "assembly" sounds better, but that's only semantics. Getting rig of one sounds perfect.


The speaker I think should remain since, isn't it in charge of maintaining activty and is reponsable with the threads and votes?
 
I must admit to being confused as to why I had to apply to the two different positions. I thought I just missed something, guess not. So Im in favour of getting rid of one as well.
 
I see that a lot has been going on since I last signed on. I've been gone a few days due to sickness..

If the "RV" classification is to be removed, then I wonder what we would do about quorum for bills and the like. We would surely have to develop new rules given that membership on this forum = membership in any sort of legislative process.

As far as abolishing the RA goes, I think that's somewhat of a radical suggestion. The RA as it is currently constituted requires more participants, but at the very least there is a core group of people interested in the legislative process. And even with such a limited group there has been problems obtaining quorum. If there is only "member" and "non-member" then that has the potential to simply degenerate into chaos. Will more people care about legislation? Will more people vote? I doubt it.. Instead, you would have the same people who participate regularly in the RA becoming frustrated because the pool has just expanded. That is to say, instead of being one voice in 40, they are now one voice in a few hundred.
 
wizardofoz01:
As far as abolishing the RA goes, I think that's somewhat of a radical suggestion. The RA as it is currently constituted requires more participants, but at the very least there is a core group of people interested in the legislative process. And even with such a limited group there has been problems obtaining quorum. If there is only "member" and "non-member" then that has the potential to simply degenerate into chaos. Will more people care about legislation? Will more people vote? I doubt it.. Instead, you would have the same people who participate regularly in the RA becoming frustrated because the pool has just expanded. That is to say, instead of being one voice in 40, they are now one voice in a few hundred.
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Whichever way you do it, it achieves the same result. Yes, we'll have to re-write certain parts to make sure all the terms match up, but that won't be that difficult to manage.

The quorums may have to be lowered somewhat, but I don't think it will make much of a difference. As long as the MoIIA regularly checks for expired and inactive nations as they are obligated to do, it shouldn't be that difficult. My admin records show that there aren't too many RV's that aren't in the RA anyway. And if that activity clause thing ever gets passed, that should clear up even more of the problems.
 
Poltsamaa:
The name Regional Assembly is not vital, but a body of its ilk is, in my opinion!! Roman's mentioning of the activity requirement for members of the RA further illustrates the advantage of converting RV status into membership of the RA or whatever it ends up being called!!
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While it might take a fairly tedious re-wording of the constitutional terms/definitions (which is not a real propblem) we could do, as has been essentially suggested, merge the RV and RA roles into a 'new' body. We could still call it the "Regional Assembly" (out of editorial convenience as per the Constitution) if we were lazy about editing, or we could call the new combined RA/RV the "Senate".
 
So, it would seem...
  • Everyone's OK with smushing the RA/RV together.
  • The Speaker should be kept to make sure everything runs smoothly and the judicial is kept separate.
  • Quorums may have to be lowered to compensate for the increased number of legislative voters.
So, draft number 2:

Constitutional Amendment concerning the merging of the Regional Assembly and the Registered Voters.

The following changes shall be made to The Constitution of The North Pacific:

Article II, Section 2 shall be edited to the following:

In the interest of Regional security, member Nations shall be required to register with the Regional Assembly prior to voting in Regional elections or referenda, as prescribed by the following procedures:
1) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall oversee the process of voter registration, aided by the Prime Minister and the Regional off-site forum administrators.
2) Nations that reside in The North Pacific and who agree to abide by the requirements outlined in Article II, Section 1, of this Constitution will request registered voter status Regional Assembly membership at the Regional off-site forum by posting a request in a thread for that exclusive purpose, created by the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.
3) In their request, registered voters Nations will be required to post a link to their TNP member Nation and their UN member Nation at NationStates.net, and in doing so, verify that they have taken the following oath:

“I, (Forum Name), as the leader of the (Official Full National Name), pledge to obey the Constitution and Laws of The North Pacific Region, and to act as a responsible member of its society.  I understand that if my Nation leaves The North Pacific region for reasons other than participation in North Pacific Army deployments that I may be stripped of my right to vote and required to reapply.  I pledge to only register one Nation to vote in The North Pacific.  I understand that my registration of, or attempt to register, multiple Nations to vote in The North Pacific shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. In this manner, I petition the Regional Government of The North Pacific region for acceptance as a duly registered voter. membership in the Regional Assembly”
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In addition, a registered voter who wishes to exercise their right to be a member of the Regional Assembly upon applying as a Registered Voter at the time of their application for registered voter status, or at any subsequent time may request membership in the Regional Assembly by sending the following request to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.
“I, (Forum Name), as Leader of (Official Full National Name), and as a Registered Voter in The North Pacific, request membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific.”
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4) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs, the Prime Minister, the Regional off-site forum administrators, and any other support personnel of the Regional Government deemed necessary are empowered to conduct investigations and make inquiries deemed necessary for the enforcement of The North Pacific voter registration provisions outlined in this Constitution, The North Pacific Legal Code, or other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution.
5) The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall expeditiously process each such voter registration request, and shall place any Nation accepted as a registered voter member of the Regional Assembly in a public listing of currently registered voters current members maintained for that purpose at the Regional off-site forum.
6) At any time, should sufficient evidence be brought to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs that proves that a registered voter Regional Assembly Member fails to meet the requirements for membership due to the deletion of a Nation from NationStates through inactivity or NationStates Moderator intervention, that Nation's name may be purged from the list of registered voters members. Should a Nation, whose voter registration membership has been purged, later be found to have been resurrected in NationStates, or that the Nation become a member of the Region once again, they may re-apply for voting rights according to the procedures in the preceding clauses of this Section. The act of expulsion or banning of a Nation from the Region prior to a trial or a referendum does not affect its status as a registered voter member until and unless a final judgment is entered in a judicial proceeding or a final certification is entered in a referendum, whichever is applicable to the given situation. The North Pacific Legal Code may provide authority to the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs for the periodic purging of the names of registered voters members who are no longer eligible to vote in the Region, upon due notice because they no longer meet the requirements of this Section.
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Article II, Section 3, Clause 2 shall be edited to the following:

2) The UN Delegate for The North Pacific, the Prime Minister, any Cabinet Minister, any deputy Cabinet minister, and the Attorney General shall act only in the best interests of the Region. Should any registered voter Regional Assembly member believe that the actions of the Delegate, the Prime Minister, or any other official in the Regional Government are inappropriate, or would serve the Region better if enacted as permanent law, that Nation may draft a petition, describing the action taken, to be signed by at least one other registered voter member, and then posted in a appropriate thread in the Regional off-site forum for the Prime Minister's office. The Cabinet shall review all such petitions. After deciding on the proper action to be taken, whether it is to overturn that action or to adopt that action as permanent law, the Cabinet shall put its decision up for a referendum of the registered voters Regional Assembly. If a majority vote is cast by the registered voters Regional Assembly (with a quorum of voters participating) in favor of ratification of the Cabinet's decision, it shall be carried out immediately.
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Article II, Section 4, Clauses B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - Political, diplomatic, or military relationships shall only be established by agreement or treaty. Either the Minister of External Affairs or the Prime Minister has the power to submit a proposal to accede to or withdraw from any agreement or treaty relationship with another region, or multi-regional organization, to the Speaker for approval of such proposed action by a majority of the registered voters Regional Assembly in a referendum with a quorum participating. The voting period for the referendum shall be for five consecutive days. Should the action be approved, action to implement the proposal shall be taken by the Prime Minister, the Minister of External Affairs, or the Cabinet of the Regional Government, as appropriate in the circumstances.
C - Provisions for the establishment of a commonwealth relationship, a protectorate relationship, a colony relationship or other political relationships with other regions by treaty or agreement shall be established in the North Pacific Legal Code. A treaty or agreement that provides for establishment of a commonwealth relationship shall expressly provide for the rights of nations of the other region to acquire full and equal citizenship and registered voter status Regional Assembly Membership in The North Pacific under the provisions of this Constitution.
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Article III, Section 1, Clauses C through F shall be edited to the following:

C - All Nations who have registered to vote joined the Regional Assembly under the provisions of Article II, Section 2, of this Constitution and who reside in The North Pacific, or are active members of The North Pacific Army or The North Pacific Intelligence Agency, shall be entitled to submit a single vote for each election regardless of UN status. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations.
D - Only Nations who are registered to vote members of the Regional Assembly when the voting period commences shall be entitled to vote, which shall take place exclusively at the Regional off-site forum.
E - Nations that register to vote join the Regional Assembly after a voting period commences shall not be able to vote in the election of offices or positions under this Constitution, or on referenda as to any other matter subject to a vote of registered voters or of the Regional Assembly as provided in this Constitution, or The North Pacific Legal Code, until the next election or referendum that occurs after that Nation's registration is validated and accepted.
F - The quorum requirement for registered voters Regional Assembly members in referenda on motions to approve, ratify or confirm actions, nominations or appointments, and on bills to enact laws, do not apply to the elections of the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council for a full term, or for any necessary runoff elections.
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Article III, Section 2, Clause 2, Paragraphs B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - In the event of a vacancy in the Office of Prime Minister, the Cabinet shall nominate a new Prime Minister, from among any of the Nations that meet the eligibility requirements for election, within seven days. The designation of the Nation nominated by the Cabinet is to be confirmed in a referendum of registered voters the Regional Assembly, in which a quorum participates, through a motion of confirmation. The nomination and referendum election shall be conducted as expeditiously as practicable. The Nation nominated for Prime Minister shall meet all qualifications for the office, and the nominated Nation is subject to any and all limitations for service provided in this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code. During the interim period between the creation of the vacancy in the office of Prime Minister and the confirmation and installation of a successor to the office of Prime Minister, the Cabinet shall collectively have the authority to exercise the duties and responsibilities of the office.
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there may be disclosure of confidential information in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceeding. The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the registered voters Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
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Article III, Section 2, Clause 3, Paragraph C shall be edited to the following:

C - The Minister shall be responsible for overseeing the voter Regional Assembly registration process and procedures in conjunction and with the support of, the Prime Minister, the Regional off-site forum administrators, and other support personnel within the Regional Government, as designated by either the Prime Minister and/or the Cabinet of the North Pacific Regional Government.
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Article III, Section 5, Clause 3 shall be edited to the following:

3) Where a vacancy occurs in any Cabinet Ministry and no Deputy for that Minister is then installed in office, the Prime Minister shall appoint a Deputy Minister who is qualified to serve as a Cabinet Minister, subject to a confirmation referendum of the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly. In that instance, the appointee shall serve as Minister on an acting basis until the referendum election is completed. If confirmed as a result of the referendum, that appointee shall thereupon assume the position of Minister and Cabinet member for the interim until the next election for that office. A vote of the registered voters Regional Assembly is required to approve a motion for confirmation of such an appointment by the Prime Minister. If, after seven days, a quorum of the registered voters Regional Assembly has participated and at least 50 per cent of those voting approve of the motion to confirm the appointment, the appointee shall remain in office to serve on an interim basis until the next election. If the motion for confirmation fails to receive such approval, then the appointee is not confirmed to serve as that Cabinet Minister, and the Prime Minister shall promptly propose another nominee for Deputy Minister, who shall act then as minister, subject to approval of a motion for confirmation in a referendum by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly.
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Article IV, Section 1, Clauses A through C shall be edited to the following:

A - There shall be a Regional Assembly, composed of those Registered Voters who elect to participate as members. The right of registered voters to become members and participate in the business of the Regional Assembly may not be impaired or denied, except to the extent that is imposed as a term of punishment by the Court of the North Pacific.
B A - The registered voters who elect membership in the Regional Assembly shall have the authority to adopt all laws, amendments to this Constitution, or other motions and proposals, except as otherwise expressly delegated in this Constitution to another governmental authority. Registered voters who hold other offices in the government may participate and vote as members of the Regional Assembly.
C B - The Regional Assembly shall be chaired by a Speaker, who is chosen by the registered voters Regional Assembly in an election for a three month term at the same time as elections for the Cabinet and Delegate.
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*Note: All other clauses in the section referenced above are to be re-lettered to correspond with their new positions.

Article IV, Section 3 shall be edited to the following:

A - Any registered voter of The North Pacific member of the Regional Assembly may submit a bill to the Regional Assembly as a proposed law or submit a proposal for a constitutional amendment. Proposals shall be submitted to the Speaker.
B - The Speaker shall select the proposals to be voted on by the registered voters Regional Assembly. Bills and proposals that are selected for consideration shall not be frivolous. The subject matter of bills selected for consideration shall have as its object the implementation of this Constitution, the adoption, amendment, or repeal of provisions of The North Pacific Legal Code, or involve any other actions that are necessary and proper and that are authorized by this Constitution, The North Pacific Legal Code, or the other laws of The North Pacific. The Speaker shall not exercise the authority conferred in this provision in an arbitrary or capricious manner. The Speaker may confer with the Prime Minister, the Ministers of the Cabinet, or with the Chief Justice, for comment on a submitted bill or proposal.
C - During the 21 day period following submission, the registered voter Nation who submitted a proposal may revise or withdraw the proposed bill. Any proposed bill not selected for a referendum vote of the Regional Assembly within 21 days of submission shall be declared a dead bill.
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Article IV, Section 4, Clause A shall be edited to the following:

A - Bills and proposals selected by the Speaker will be voted on in a referendum of the registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly.
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Article IV, Section 5 shall be edited to the following:

A - In order for any action to be adopted, a quorum of registered voters (or of registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) must participate in the referendum. Should a quorum not be achieved for any proposed action by the registered voters (or by registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly) at the end of the voting period for a referendum, the proposed action will fail and not be adopted.
B - Quorum shall consist either a total of 20 legitimate votes cast by registered voters Regional Assembly members or be that number of legitimate votes cast by registered voters Regional Assembly Members that is equal to six per cent of the total number of registered voters (or registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, as applicable) at the time the referendum commences, whichever is greater.
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Article IV, Section 6, Clause B shall be edited to the following:

B - At the end of that week, a second referendum vote will then be held and, if the bill receives 60 per cent approval of the vote of the registered voters with a quorum participating, the bill shall be adopted as a law. If the bill fails to receive 60 per cent approval after the second vote, it will be declared a dead bill.
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Article IV, Section 8, Clause A shall be edited to the following:

A - The Speaker, with assistance of the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs and the Prime Minister, shall be responsible for supervising referendum voting of any bill or proposal for a constitutional amendment selected for a vote of the members of the Regional Assembly, or of any other matters submitted to a referendum of all registered voters.
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Article IV, Section 9 shall be edited to the following:

A - The registered voters Regional Assembly shall elect a Security Council. The Speaker shall serve as the presiding officer of the Council. The Council shall have authority to endorse or otherwise approve such actions of an urgent or emergency nature that involve regional security other than the adoption of legislative bills and constitutional amendments as are specified in this Constitution and The North Pacific Legal Code. Any action by the Council does not supercede any requirement for approval by a referendum within the Regional Assembly or of the registered voters, but serves as approval for action prior to such a referendum.
B - The Security Council shall be composed of not fewer than five registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, elected for three month terms at the same time as the Cabinet, Speaker, and the UN Delegate. The total number of Council members shall be determined by law, but shall not be less than five nor more than that whole number which equals ten percent of the total number of registered voters Regional Assembly Members at the time the nomination period for elections commence. The members of the Council shall be elected by plurality vote of the registered voters Regional Assembly in the manner prescribed by law.
C - Registered Voters Regional Assembly Members elected to serve on the Security Council shall arrange their affairs during their term of office on the Council so that they may participate in any matter brought to the Council upon notice not to exceed 24 hours. A quorum for the actions of the Security Council shall be not fewer than three registered voters Regional Assembly members as determined by law. The Speaker shall not have a vote in Security Council matters except in the case of a tie, but the Speaker shall count to the establishment of a quorum for a particular matter.
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Article V, Section 2, Clause B shall be edited to the following:

B - The Chief Justice and the Associate Justices shall serve a term of six months. The Chief Justice and the Associate Justices shall be registered voters Members of the Regional Assembly who shall hold no other office during their tenure as judges.
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Article V, Section 2, Clause D shall be edited to the following:

D - The appointment must thereafter be approved at a referendum, which shall extend for seven days, of the registered voters of The North Pacific Regional Assembly, with the participation of a quorum, by at least a 50 per cent vote in favor of a motion for confirmation. The nomination and referendum election shall be conducted as expeditiously as practicable. If the motion for confirmation fails to receive such approval, then the appointee is not confirmed to serve as a judicial officer, and the Prime Minister shall promptly propose another nominee, with the advice and consent of the Cabinet, who shall act as a judicial officer, subject to approval of a motion for confirmation in a referendum by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly.
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Article V, Section 4, Clauses B and C shall be edited to the following:

B - All criminal trials shall include a randomly selected trial jury of five registered voters Regional Assembly Members drawn from the list of registered voters Regional Assembly Members.
C - A jury shall have the power to recommend a proportionate punishment to any conviction to the judicial officer, who shall impose such recommendation as the sentence of the Court provided that the sentence is proportionate to the offense in scope and duration. Any sentence may include the suspension of any or all of a registered voter Regional Assembly member's rights to participate in the government as a registered voter Regional Assembly, to hold office, to participate in the North Pacific Army, to participate in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency, or otherwise, as deemed appropriate to the circumstances.
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Article V, Section 5, Clause D shall be edited to the following:

D - Failure of a Nation to Observe Its Oath of Office or its Oath as a Registered Voter Regional Assembly Member.
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Article V, Section 7, Clauses A and B shall be edited to the following:

A - Any registered voter Regional Assembly Member may bring charges against a Cabinet-level position if they believe the officeholder has violated this Constitution or partaken in other gross misconduct. The registered voter Nation must provide enough evidence to a Grand Jury to warrant a trial.
B - A panel of five registered voters Regional Assembly members who are not holding a Cabinet-level position and who are randomly selected from a jury pool shall be selected by the Chief Justice to review the evidence given. If the Chief Justice is being impeached, the Prime Minister will randomly select the Grand Jury. If any jury member expresses a clear bias, they shall be excluded from the Grand Jury and replaced with another juror. The Grand Jury shall have not more than 96 hours to review and weigh the evidence cited in the complaint, and determine whether a trial is warranted.
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Article VI, Section 2, Clauses 2 through 4 shall be edited to the following:

2) The Judicial Branch or the Prime Minister can call a referendum vote of the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly for the purpose of approving a motion for immediate expulsion by the posting of the case and evidence of needed action in a thread within the Regional off-site Forum and a notification of the motion and referendum on the Regional message board at Nationstates.net at any time.
3) If more than half of the registered voters Regional Assembly Members who cast a vote in that thread, with a quorum participating, vote in favor of an ejection within a 24 hour period, then the Nation will be ejected by the Delegate.
4) In the event of explicit spamming of the Regional offsite forum or the Regional civil headquarters message board at Nationstates.net, a Nation may be ejected by the Delegate without a prior referendum vote if the action is countersigned by the Prime Minister upon the posting of the offense by a registered voter Regional Assembly Member, and a second to the immediate expulsion motion by another registered voter Regional Assembly Member. However, the subject Nation of the expulsion action shall have the right to a post-ejection referendum vote by the registered voters of the Region Regional Assembly on a motion to ratify the ejection. The vote shall be to ratify the action to expel, and the expulsion shall be ratified if within seven days, at least 50 per cent of the registered voters Regional Assembly with a quorum participating, approve the motion in a referendum.
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Article VII, Section 1 shall be edited to the following:

This Constitution may be amended as necessary. Amendments may be proposed by any registered voter Regional Assembly member to the Speaker, in the manner described in Article III.
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Article VII, Section 2, Clause 1, Paragraph B shall be edited to the following:

B - Appoval by the Regional Assembly. A proposal for a constitutional amendment is adopted and ratified as part of this Constitution if, at a referendum of the Regional Assembly in which a quorum of registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly participate, the proposal garners approval by no less than two-thirds of the votes cast during the voting period.
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I think it'll be easier to just re-write the whole damn thing. That only took a bloody hour and a half.... <_<
 
In my humble opinion the seperate list of registered voters and RA members is actually a good thing in that it helps keep dead weight out of the RA and prevents inflation of quorums while still allowing for those who only want to be active on the level of voting for regional officials.

To abolish the RV and RA distinction will be to weigh down the RA in such a way as to make it virtually ineffective. The RA is already a fairly quiet, inactive body. Can it take yet another blow such as this?

If we are to energise the Regional Assembly, then we will need mfar more intense reforms than the abolition of the RA or the RV status.
 
Here's the solution to the quorum issue:

Abolish the quorum requirements on legislative votes (a simple majority of votes cast will pass a legislative item) and give the Prime Minister an executive veto on legislative items which can be over-ridden by 2/3rds of total votes cast in the RA.

Keep the quorum requirements on constitutional amendments as a safeguard.

This would prevent stagnation by unintentional or intentional lack of participation on legislative items and give the Prime Minister a little more executive authority for checks and balances purposes.

R
 
Quorums are an essential safeguard to prevent a temporary majority that is actually a minority from enacting legislation, constitutional amendments, or other actions.

Without a quorum requirement, then one vote, alone, could theoretically enact anything if that is the only vote cast.

Quocums are a device to protect the rights of the citizens against oppression by a minority acting for their own self-serving benefit.

The problem with quorum reflects upon the failure to communicate with the eligible voters about current activity. It is not enough to merely post something in a thread, and assume everyone is going to see it.

During my tenure as Minister of Justice, prior to the creation of the regional assembly, either I or the Prime Minister sent PMs to all listed voters concerning matters at hand, and well as announcement and notices that were linked from the top of the forum page ("latest news"). We went out of our way to assure voters knew what was going on, and made sure they knew, if needed, with a follow-up mailing. If I have any criticism of the current Speaker and Cabinet Ministers, it is their lack of willingness to use these devices to remind people of activity going on within the government, and promote participation in a positive way.

This is why I am highly critical of the idea of imposing activity clauses, because it has not been demonstrated that such devices for communication are not working to promote participation. What it does reflect is a lack of entusiasm to use the legitimate methods that already exist and have worked under past administrations to promote participation. (As another for instance, I would point out the entire absence of public disclosure of any Cabinet meeting transcripts or other deliberations throughout this term of office.)

I would strongly oppose any form of veto for the Prime Minister. He is not the sole source or recipient of executive power in the government; if there is be such a power crated, it should be vested in the entire Cabinet (since the entire Cabinet, collecitvely constitutes the executive power within the government.)

The quorum issue would also resolve itself with a more assertive effort to recruit new nations to participate in the government. The quorum requirement is 20 or 6 per cent, which ever is greater. (In other words, the number of quorum begins to rise once there are 320 or more members. And obtaining 20 votes out of 50 is easier than 20 out of 20, and 20 of 100 is easier than 20 of 50.)

No legislative vote failed reach quorum during the direct legislative system period prior to the regional assembly's existence. This is one argument in favor of dismantling the regional assembly and going back to the former system using direct legislation by voters. Participation levels were higher, and the absence of a formal chamber, I suspect, was less intimidating to new residents.

I do not believe quorum itself is the issue, or activity clauses. The real issue is the willingness of officeholders to use all of the authority at their disposal to bring in new participants and assure they know what is going on so they make the effort to participate. And that is the fault of the current incumbents, and no one else. Enacting legislation to deal with extended inactivity is a different issue, especially for officeholders, since their absence impedes governmental function. But that does not justify positively imposed "activity" requirements or weakening qourum requirements.

These discussions about changing quorum and imposing activity requirements might have some meaning if it could be demonstrated that the current powers of government officials do not work. But that means there has to at least been an sustained effort to use every means of communication beforehand. That clearly has not been the case lately, and so, I am unpersuaded that changing the quorum or adopting activity clauses are appropriate or necessary.
 
Schnauzer, you're doing it again.

Short version of Schnauzer's post:

Schnauzer (Sort of):
We need quorums. If we don't have them, one person could pass a bill if he's the only one to vote. A minority could pass a bill for their own gains if not enough other people voted.

As MoJ, I [Schnauzer] sent out PM's to people telling them to vote. There's no proof that didn't work. The current government should be doing that to increase participation. If they did, we wouldn't need activity clauses.

Veto power for the PM is bad. If we have it, it should be for the whole Cabinet.

With more people registered to vote, quorums solve themselves. "Obtaining 20 votes out of 50 is easier than 20 out of 20, and 20 of 100 is easier than 20 of 50."

If it can be proven that the current government powers are ineffective for increasing voting activity, then, and only then, should we consider changing quorums and activity requirements.
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All of which I agree with.
 
I agree with Schnauz, but the problem with quorums isn't so much to do with the number of RAs, but with the number of RVs. Essentially, when it comes time for general elections, the RA roles magically jump in numbers, and then those nations that vote in the general elections seem to vanish just as magically as they appear. This leads me to belive that there is a flaw in the system that results in inflated RV roles at election time with nations that have no interest in sticking around or participating. Their sudden appearance might be, under certain cirumstances, nefarious to say the least.

This is why, as in another thread, the issue of activity clauses is being discussed.

The issue of transient majorities in the RA is indeed a cause for concern, but if people join the RA and then choose not to actually participate then they are voting by default in their voluntary inactivity. The potential for transient majorities in the body politic tends to induce people to step forward to actually participate instead of sitting on their duffs and letting other do the deciding for them.

[editorial addendum]

If we establish a legislative environment that permits the possibility of transient majorities, then it will serve to encourage us all to work for more participation via recruitment so that a more representative cross-section of voters/RA members is acquired. So, my suggested measures concerning quorums and combining the RV/RA into the RA roles would require the recruitement of more RA members in order to get more accurate representation. The level of democracy would then be tied directly to the level of participation - as is the case in any instance - but with only a slight kick in the arse to us all to go out and recruite more people to participate.

You can't make democracy mandatory, but you can make the desire to have a more inclusive level of participation a matter of enlightened self-interest to all involved.



R
 
While Roman makes very good points, Schnauzer's remain of overriding importance to me.

Granted, the RA isn't perfect. As I said above, though, with far-reaching reforms it can become a more effective and more secure area of government. To simply abolish the RA is to take the easy way out.

Instead of such rash action, might I propose, if consitutionally allowable a small committee made of RA members and led by the Minister of Justice to look into the possibility of extreme reforms to the RA charged with the creation of such reform legislation?
 
Because in theory would it not be the Minister of Justice who is best informed of every nuance of the Constitution and who also should be most capable of retaining a high level of neutrality politically speaking?

If there's a better option, then by all means, let it be him/her. The MoJ was simply my initial thought.
 
Russo-Princepolis:
Because in theory would it not be the Minister of Justice who is best informed of every nuance of the Constitution and who also should be most capable of retaining a high level of neutrality politically speaking?

If there's a better option, then by all means, let it be him/her. The MoJ was simply my initial thought.
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I don't see any minister as being more "neutral" than another based primarily on the office they hold!!

Theoretically, the MoJ should know more about the constitution that others by way of their office but I'm not sure that can be taken as fact!!

The discussion of amendments to the constitution is something that the RA was designed for and I see no reason for an exclusive group to be sanctioned to discuss any such changes at the exclusion of others in the RA and/or Cabinet!!

I think people have expressed their ideas on the future of the RA and eventually something acceptable to most will be proposed!!

I do not support the abolition of the RA, I do support the migration of RV's to become members of the RA with the RV title being removed!!

As I see it, we have two options with regards to making sure our processes are not strangled by inactive nations creating unreachable quorum!! Some here profess that such an event will never happen, but seeing as we have not had a long term, stable government system in place long enough for such an event to happen I fail to see how claims hold any water!!

We can scrap the quorum requirement and implement the PM veto as per Roman's suggestion!! It would work well and urge people to participate provided we had a PM that was realistic with the use of the veto!! This would prevent the "one vote passing legislative change" as a diligent PM would veto such a result in the unlikely event it occurred!!

The second alternative is to apply activity requirements for members of the RA to remove inactives from the RA rolls allowing a more realistic quorum requirement to be calculated based on truly active members of the RA!!

Either option is fine with me and allows for a more efficient and less bureaucratic process for legislative change!!
 
I believe that the RA is simply too large and clumsy to handle the intricacies that would be required in hammering out such an amendment as one that would be necessary to appropriately reform the RA and RV situation, so either one person must do it all, a committee of several members can do it, or it can not be done at all and we can take the "bash away" approach and simply cut out pieces of the governmental fabric. A committee of several members will be at least somewhat more likely to have a balanced approach to the revisions and will introduce a broader spectrum of ideas while still being capable of operating quickly and efficiently to introduce a quality piece of legislation capable of being passed should the Regional Assembly approve.
 
There is nothing to stop people getting together to hash out some ideas, I merely stated that, in my opinion, officially setting up an exclusive group to do so would be a little too exclusionary for my liking!!

It is a common practise, at least in my experience, for people to bounce their ideas off others before making a proposal for legislative change public!!

The problem with such a complex issue that has many areas on which people differ in opinion is that a small group will most likely not come up with something that the majority will accept, but it may come up with something from which to start working with!!

Perhaps splitting the issue into its components may be easier for the RA to work with before combining the components for a final proposal?!

We have a couple of obvious issues, those being the existance of the RV and/or RA label and also the manner in which the activity of the legislative body will be monitored if at all!! A person who agrees with one part of a proposal may disagree the other!!

Ordinarily, I'd prefer issues like this be proposed as separate bills but as they are intertwined this would make things more difficult!!
 
My personal problem with RA is that there's not enough members to truly represent all of the North Pacific. Now this is a complex issue without much common ground but the issue I am personally against is the idea that we need to RA to hammer out the details for the RV. In turn relegating most of those who do participate within the system to spectators. Since the RA is not elected to represent others in the NP, a small group of people chooses the issues in which the people (who are the foundation of this great region) only has the power to consent.

Now some are ok with that. we only come from differing political values and the same love for the NP. But I find that activity clauses, separation of the RA and the RV, and the like to be a hindrance to actualizing greater participation within our great democracy.
 
mr_sniffles:
My personal problem with RA is that there's not enough members to truly represent all of the North Pacific. Now this is a complex issue without much common ground but the issue I am personally against is the idea that we need to RA to hammer out the details for the RV. In turn relegating most of those who do participate within the system to spectators. Since the RA is not elected to represent others in the NP, a small group of people chooses the issues in which the people (who are the foundation of this great region) only has the power to consent.

Now some are ok with that. we only come from differing political values and the same love for the NP. But I find that activity clauses, separation of the RA and the RV, and the like to be a hindrance to actualizing greater participation within our great democracy.
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People who choose not to participate ARE spectators by choice!! If people want to be involved, they can be, if they do not, that is also their choice!! But having those who do not wish to be involved complain that they are not involved or that those who wish to be involved are making decions on their behalf is ludicrous!!
 
I have a serious philosophical reservation about the issue being framed in terms that there has to be either a veto or an activity clause adopted, with no other options presented.

The Prime Minister totally failed to address the fact that the current incumbents have not done as much as they could have to promote participation by nations by a more assertive policy of communication with the registered voters and regional assembly members of the region, a policy that does not require the adoption of either legislation or further amendment of the constitution. If this were done with more energy and less complaining by the current incumbents they might discover that participation levels would increase considerably.

As I noted before, the only legislative need I can see besides the restoration of full legislative authority to the registered voters as a group with the dissolution of the regional assembly, is legislation defining the abandonment of elective office when an officeholder fails to exercise or participate in the affairs of the office that they were duly elected to after a stated period of time. Anything further than that I strongly suspect would violate the Declaration of Rights contained in Article I of the Constitution.

I think the current topic should be limited to the consolidation of the RV and RA. The other issues are secondary to that one, and can be dealt with separately and later.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I have a serious philosophical reservation about the issue being framed in terms that there has to be either a veto or an activity clause adopted, with no other options presented.
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That is your opinion and you are entitled to it!! I did not say there were no other options, just that these were the two that had been raised so far!!

The Prime Minister totally failed to address the fact that the current incumbents have not done as much as they could have to promote participation by nations by a more assertive policy of communication with the registered voters and regional assembly members of the region, a policy that does not require the adoption of either legislation or further amendment of the constitution. If this were done with more energy and less complaining by the current incumbents they might discover that participation levels would increase considerably.
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Why should the cabinet have to spend their time badgering people to vote?! When people sign on as members of the Regional Assembly they take on a responsibility!! If they do not fulfil that responsibility why shouldn't that status be removed until such time as they resume that responsibility?! The cabinet is here to work for the people of the region in the capacity they were elected, not to wipe everyone's backside!! What people are proposing is a system that will encourage activity and best serve our region by not allowing those that are inactive to bring our regional processes to a halt!!
If you view proposing alternatives to the current system as "complaining" then you have a low opinion of anyone who dares propose a change to your precious Constitution!! I haven't seen anyone complaining, what I have seen is people who forsee a problem with the current system and are working to prevent the problems arising rather than waiting for them to happen!!

As I noted before, the only legislative need I can see besides the restoration of full legislative authority to the registered voters as a group with the dissolution of the regional assembly, is legislation defining the abandonment of elective office when an officeholder fails to exercise or participate in the affairs of the office that they were duly elected to after a stated period of time. Anything further than that I strongly suspect would violate the Declaration of Rights contained in Article I of the Constitution.
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So when the members of Cabinet commit to the office they were elected to, you say they should be held accountable to the responsibility they took on, but when the same is asked of the members of the Regional Assembly you see things completely opposite!! We do have mechanisms to remove inactive members of government but at present we do not have similar mechanisms to remove inactive members of the RA who can bring the legislative process to a halt by inflating RV numbers and moving the quorum out of reach!! There is nothing in the Declaration of Rights thats states people can hold the region to ransom with inactivity!!

I think the current topic should be limited to the consolidation of the RV and RA. The other issues are secondary to that one, and can be dealt with separately and later.
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Again you opinion and one you are entitled to!! Others have expressed their opinions as is their right, something you seem unable to accept!!
 
mr_sniffles:
My personal problem with RA is that there's not enough members to truly represent all of the North Pacific.
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Well, with a region of almost 8,000 nations, that's simply impossible. Invisonfree would probably have to put us on our own separate server if we had even half that many active people running around these forums.

Like Polts said, they have the option to participate. The forum is in the WFE, and we advertize it a bit on the RMB. If they don't wanna come, we can't force 'em to.

Poltsamaa:
Why should the cabinet have to spend their time badgering people to vote?!
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Well....
Constitution:
C- The Speaker shall provide a notice of the referendum on the bill which shall include the date on which voting shall commence after a notice and comment period on the bill (in its final form) of at least 24 hours, but not to exceed seven days.
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Now I admit, it doesn't say he has to PM everybody, but PMing everyone would fill that requirement. I'm pretty sure that if you went around and told people every now and then, "Hey, you need to come say something over here," we'd get quite a bit more activity. With the Carbon-copy feature the Ministers have (which I can expand if the need arises (HINT HINT)), it probably won't even take that long.

The Regional Assembly isn't an office like being a Cabinet Minister is. If this bill passes, it won't be any more than the right to vote. And some of the less active ones may need a little reminding. And if they prove to be really inactive, to the point their nation CTE's, we do have a mechanism to remove them.

Again, I say we let it go for a while, see how it works, and then impose activity clauses if needed.
 
Why should the cabinet have to spend their time badgering people to vote?!
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They shouldn't have to. It's ridiculous that they do. However, strong leaders very often must take on duties which rightfully they should not have to perform. They are charged with making sure government runs smoothly, ensuring the safety of TNP, and building up TNP. All of these things require activity, therefore, they are charged, indirectly, with maintaining activity.
 
Hersfold:
Well....
Constitution:
C- The Speaker shall provide a notice of the referendum on the bill which shall include the date on which voting shall commence after a notice and comment period on the bill (in its final form) of at least 24 hours, but not to exceed seven days.
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Now I admit, it doesn't say he has to PM everybody, but PMing everyone would fill that requirement. I'm pretty sure that if you went around and told people every now and then, "Hey, you need to come say something over here," we'd get quite a bit more activity. With the Carbon-copy feature the Ministers have (which I can expand if the need arises (HINT HINT)), it probably won't even take that long.

The Regional Assembly isn't an office like being a Cabinet Minister is. If this bill passes, it won't be any more than the right to vote. And some of the less active ones may need a little reminding. And if they prove to be really inactive, to the point their nation CTE's, we do have a mechanism to remove them.

Again, I say we let it go for a while, see how it works, and then impose activity clauses if needed.
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That does not state that the Speaker must PM every member of the RA to notify them of a vote!! It is the responsibility of each member of the RA to check in regularly and vote and discuss issues as they arise!! The Speaker posting notification in the RA forum is more than enough notice for anyone interested in taking part!! as I said, the Cabinet is not here to spoonfeed the citizens of the region nor wipe their backsides for them!! If you take the oath to join the RA then you are committing to a certain level of responsibility!!

As for the activity clauses, what happens if we cannot enact the activity clauses down the track due to the inactivity we are trying to avoid now?! It may not happen for a while, but it will eventually as people come and go from the RA!! It has happened to an extent in the Merit as they have no way of removing Senators unless they CTE!! If they wanted to add activity clauses as I believe they had discussed, they cannot as the inactive members of the Senate will prevent the quorum requirement being met!! While we have the mechanism to remove nations that have CTEd, we do not have anything to remove inactive nations that still exist!! In the future that can prevent quorum being met and grind our system to a halt!! I still have seen no reason why we cannot enact an activity requirement in the RA whereby an inactive nation that misses 2 votes without prior notification of an absense to the Speaker and/or PM is removed from the RA list!! Upon their return they can assume their role in the RA by reposting the oath!!

Nobody's rights are removed at all!! If you want to be involved, then be involved!! If you are not interested in the RA then do not sign up for it!! People have a choice, but our region should not be held to ransom by inactive nations!! Nor should it be expected to wait until the inactives sieze up our legislative process before it decides to do something about a problem identified much earlier in our history!!
 
Russo-Princepolis:
They shouldn't have to. It's ridiculous that they do. However, strong leaders very often must take on duties which rightfully they should not have to perform. They are charged with making sure government runs smoothly, ensuring the safety of TNP, and building up TNP. All of these things require activity, therefore, they are charged, indirectly, with maintaining activity.
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There is a difference between providing an environment that encourages activity and spending time online sending PMs to the RA asking them to check the forum and vote/discuss issues!! The Speaker's job is a busy one at the best of times without having to make sure the members of the RA have checked the forum once a week to vote or post their opinion on a proposed change!!

This government has provided activity, we have proposed numerous changes to make this region function better!! If people want to be part of it, then they have every opportunity to do so!! If they do not, they have that choice also!!

We cannot, however, let those that join then neglect the basic requirement of being a member of the RA hold back our region!! You will soon see a decline in activity if we cannot pass any proposals due to unattainable quorum requirements, but I guess the lack of means of removing the "deadwood" to facilitate a more active and vibrant legislative process will be the cabinet's fault too when we get to that bridge despite the fact we are proposing legislation that will prvent it happening at all!! Its called being proactive rather than reactive!!

I see no problem in legislating for a problem forseen rather than pretendin it won't ever happen to us and then finding it is too late when it does!!

What exactly does a nation who is removed from the RA for inactivity miss out on when they can rejoin once active again?! If someone can answer that perhaps we'd go closer to understanding the aversion to the activity requirements!!
 
Poltsamaa:
Nobody's rights are removed at all!! If you want to be involved, then be involved!! If you are not interested in the RA then do not sign up for it!! People have a choice, but our region should not be held to ransom by inactive nations!! Nor should it be expected to wait until the inactives sieze up our legislative process before it decides to do something about a problem identified much earlier in our history!!
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I don't think anyone said people's rights are being removed, so I don't quite know where that came from. We already have mechanisms for removing CTE'd nations. That takes a bit longer, yes, but it IS THERE. We only need 20 people to vote in order to reach a quorum. 20 people is not that hard to scrounge up, especially when you consider the current size of our government -
  • 1 Prime Minister
  • 1 UN Delegate
  • 1 Vice Delegate
  • 7 Cabinet Ministers
  • 7 Deputy Ministers
  • 2 Admins, who aren't in the gov't but are just as active
  • 5+ Security Council members, who may or may not hold another position listed
  • 3 Court Justices
If this passes, they will all be in the RA. That adds up to at least 22 people. That's over the quorum. The region's not going to be held for ransom as long as the government remains active. And if they don't, we impeach them and elect a new one. This is why we don't need activity clauses. The size of our government nullifies any need for them with the current quorum requirements.

And have you considered wat effect activity clauses might have on newcomers? "If you register, you MUST log in once a week or we'll kick you out." Oh, THAT sounds friendly. Then we have the problem of not having enough people to keep the government going. And the whole thing collapses anyway.

And have you considered how much work it would be to go through every week to see who has and who hasn't logged in? That's not something I can pull up on the Admin CP. Someone would have to go through every single profile of every single member to see who stays and who goes. Something which could probably take up to an hour of someone's time... every time.

Activity clauses are not only unneccessary, but impractical. We have no need for them at this time.
 
Hersfold:
I don't think anyone said people's rights are being removed, so I don't quite know where that came from. We already have mechanisms for removing CTE'd nations. That takes a bit longer, yes, but it IS THERE. We only need 20 people to vote in order to reach a quorum. 20 people is not that hard to scrounge up, especially when you consider the current size of our government -
  • 1 Prime Minister
  • 1 UN Delegate
  • 1 Vice Delegate
  • 7 Cabinet Ministers
  • 7 Deputy Ministers
  • 2 Admins, who aren't in the gov't but are just as active
  • 5+ Security Council members, who may or may not hold another position listed
  • 3 Court Justices
If this passes, they will all be in the RA. That adds up to at least 22 people. That's over the quorum. The region's not going to be held for ransom as long as the government remains active. And if they don't, we impeach them and elect a new one. This is why we don't need activity clauses. The size of our government nullifies any need for them with the current quorum requirements.
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I believe Grosseschnauzer mentioned it was a violation of the Declaration of Rights, hence that was why I mentioned it!!

If you read the constitution you will find the following (emphasis mine!!)!!

Constitution of TNP:
B - Quorum shall consist either a total of 20 legitimate votes cast by registered voters or be that number of legitimate votes cast by registered voters that is equal to six per cent of the total number of registered voters (or registered voters who are members of the Regional Assembly, as applicable) at the time the referendum commences, whichever is greater.
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This clearly shows that once our RV/RA population reaches a certain point, the quorum is raised in accordance with that population!! Therefore, inactive members of the RA can, in the furture, inflate the quorum requirement to a level not reachable!!

And have you considered wat effect activity clauses might have on newcomers? "If you register, you MUST log in once a week or we'll kick you out." Oh, THAT sounds friendly. Then we have the problem of not having enough people to keep the government going. And the whole thing collapses anyway.
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Yes, and I can see no problem with it!! If people want to be active (ie. log on once a week) then they should join the RA!! If that requirement is too much commitment for them to take then they shouldn't join the RA but are welcome to participate in the OOC and other aspects of the region as they wish!! Nobody is forced to join the RA, something lost on you obviously!! If they do not wish to carry out the role of a member of the RA, then they should not join in the first place!! With the acticity requirement we will have an active RA!! Smaller, yes, but active and able to process legislation under the constitution without the hinderance of inactives holding the system up!!

And have you considered how much work it would be to go through every week to see who has and who hasn't logged in? That's not something I can pull up on the Admin CP. Someone would have to go through every single profile of every single member to see who stays and who goes. Something which could probably take up to an hour of someone's time... every time.
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If the system is set up corectly such as in a manner I proposed (you'll note I said the requirement would be to not miss two consecutive votes without informing the Speaker or PM of your absence) then it will be easy to monitor by keeping records of who voted on each proposal as we currently do now!! The once a week logging on would be so as not to miss a vote or discussion rather than the activity criteria!!

Activity clauses are not only unneccessary, but impractical. We have no need for them at this time.
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Your last statement here proves my point!! You are looking at legislature as reactive whereas I am looking at it from a proactive point of view!! Right at this moment, we do not need the activity requirement, but in the future we probably will!! Rather than wait until we have a problem which by its very nature will prevent us from solving it, we can put measures in place to prevent it from happening!!

Again, you have not shown me any reason not to apply the activity requirement!! You said yourself it is not a violation of any nation's rights!!
 
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