Dual-Citizenship/Behaviour

Inconsistant?

Okay, I'll break it down for you:

• You are PopeHope of Nasicournia.
• We don't want Nasicournia interfering with our affairs.
• You have a nation in TNP, with which you claim enough duality to apply as a citizen.

Therefore:
The Nation that is in the RA is not the Nation that is in Nasicournia.

If you want to be an official Nasicournian, you have one hat:


If you want to be a TNPer, you have another:


Unfortunately, you cannot wear both at the same time.

The perceived inconsistency is that others are not treated with the same sternness pertaining to their hats, even though I've openly said that I RP the same leader of all Hopian territories. For instance (not to single him out because there are certainly others), Fedele speaks of his involvement in LWU--because he is a participant there he has insight to offer on LWU activities and invading in general. One of the reasons I supported his TNP citizenship was because he came here openly as himself.

I think if I am speaking on behalf of Nasicournia, that should be noted, but if I am simply talking about the Nasi or offering insight from my own background just as others with multi-regional involvements do, I don't see the problem. And yes, I do believe that most people who RP different nations have their own amount of experienced-based insight to offer and a slant to their beliefs as well--the difference is simply that folks such as Fedele, Dalimbar, myself, etc, come here openly with our backgrounds. I don't think those of us who keep our namesake/same leaders should be treated differently just because we didn't register under new names and claim duality.

While the varying backgrounds certainly play a part in the views of dual residents in terms of the governing of regions and international events, this doesn't mean any of us or the others involved in other regions have some agenda to fulfill. When it's pointed out to me constantly and to seemingly to no one else, that is where the confusion comes from. Please don't get defensive, it's just a bit frustrating. I did know when I decided to finally apply for citizenship that even though others from dual regions had been accepted that I would probably get a hard time from some people given history and the paranoia of even inaccurately being called an ADN puppet ever again.

I want to know what law I am breaking by playing the same leader, and after that clarification has been made, ask only that the same standard apply to everyone else as applies to me. It's almost as if transparency is being discouraged.

Okay, before you think I'm about to jump down your throat, let me just state that I am only interested in making sure that those residents we have here have TNP's best interests at heart. This is not personal in any way, shape or form, I would speak equally harshly to anyone who forgets who can decide what region they are from when they are here.

So, can I ask you a serious question? When you wish to deal with TNP affairs, do you wish to do so as PopeHope leader of Nasicournia?

Fedele never makes official statments in regards to LWU, and he rarely mentions them anymore. At most he has made a couple of recruitment advertisements in that area (and for the record, I would have less of an issue with you doing that than making official statements or what have you). I also mention my Meritocracy connection at times, but I do not make official statements for them, nor do I speak as a senator when I am here -- this is for the simple reason that when I am in TNP, I am a TNP citizen, not a Senator with a vested interest in TNP or a dual-citizen.

There are no laws as such, but the constitution does seem to be pretty clear cut about the matter:

Article II - Section 2:

Nations that reside in The North Pacific and who agree to abide by the requirements outlined in Article II, Section 1, of this Constitution will request registered voter status at the Regional off-site forum by posting a request in a thread for that exclusive purpose, created by the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.

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RV Oath:

I, (Forum Name), as the leader of the (Official Full National Name), pledge to obey the Constitution and Laws of The North Pacific Region, and to act as a responsible member of its society. I understand that if my Nation leaves The North Pacific region for reasons other than participation in North Pacific Army deployments that I may be stripped of my right to vote and required to reapply. I pledge to only register one Nation to vote in The North Pacific. I understand that my registration of, or attempt to register, multiple Nations to vote in The North Pacific shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. In this manner, I petition the Regional Government of The North Pacific region for acceptance as a duly registered voter.

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Both the constitution and the oath you take point to you having a Nation in this region. That nation (one would assume) is not the same nation as is in Nasicournia.

I don't understand why you are making such a fuss over this, PH. Either you are a TNP citizen when you are here, or you are a Nasicournian citizen. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Just to make my point a bit clearer:

If you were to become a Diplomat, would you be an Ambassador from TNP or an Ambassador for Nasicournia?

If you were to run as a Minister, would you be running as a TNP citizen or a Nasicournian citizen?

When you vote on legislature, do you vote in the best interests of Nasicournia, or in the best interests of TNP?

If you can't decide, then we can't decide and that is very worrying indeed.

**Edit -- Grammar, Toning down and general self editing.

I never forget what region I am from. I have two homes, and TNP is the only region I've ever taken a vested interest in--and this was long before any alphabet soup controversies. I've wanted to take part here as a citizen for ages, and only restrained myself previously because I personally didn't want to cause any stratched propaganda from being hurled at the previous Cabinets at the time(s).

I make a differentiation when speaking on behalf of my other region versus speaking as a citizen here. In fact, Nasicournia for the most part is spoken for by the various departments there; not me. However, if I see my region being attacked, I am able to offer insight from the perspective of dual residency there.

I'm not trying to "make a fuss" or be combative. Other people pointed out the inconsistency to me before I stated my concern publicly. I'm generally interested in hearing your response and the opinions of other people here. I think duality is a serious issue, especially in a region like TNP in which the concept has been repeatedly taken advantage of in the past.

As to the Constitution: my nation resides in the North Pacific, and it is not leaving. The only time it has left was in the past when I was not as involved here for periods of time and I accidentally let it CTE. If it weren't for that it would be much larger, because my love for this region goes back a long way in time.

While the nations I have in TNP and Nasi are indeed different, they are part of the same empire (what I RP as the "Hopian Empire"), and maintained by the same Cabinet and traditional leader. I am open about my dual involvement. Not everyone is, but regardless of whether they are or not, they are allowed to speak from their experience in their other regions. I ask only that the same rights be accorded to me. I do feel somewhat persecuted, but I'm not "up in arms" over it--like I told you, I understand the concern and indeed expected it. I just desire some further clarification, because I don't feel that I should be threatened with legal action or censure for openly responding in regards to my insight on my other home.

I'm no stranger to this concept. Nasicournia itself has become a sort of melting pot of international leaders along with our purely Nasicournian-only citizenship. As long as our citizens come to us openly about their other involvements, as I've said before, even invaders are welcome to participate in our region. We have residents who were TNP first and then came to us requesting citizenship--their input and insight into the goings on in their other regions is just seen as natural and a welcome addition; perhaps the cultural difference in my regions is why I am feeling the way I am about this issue here.

I've seen Fedele and others mention their other regions frequently when an issue involving those regions comes up; most recently in the RLA Invader forum griefing, in which both invaders and RLA members had things to say from their perspective as citizens of affiliated regions. I personally see nothing wrong with that; all I'm saying is that I would like to be afforded the same right to offer my perspective as a Nasicournian if my other home comes up.

As for having our cake and eating it too, that's a rather harsh way to put it, but isn't that what all dual citizens of any regions are doing? They remain citizens of their original regions, but for whatever reason they have grown to feel as though TNP is home as well. For the most part when I am here I am thinking only of TNP, but I feel if the subject of Nasicournia comes up, or if a discussion is occuring in which I feel my experience as a Nasicournian applies/could help me demonstrate a point or offer some insight, I should be allowed to do so.

I am here openly as a dual citizen; I have no alternative agenda and have been completely transparent about my involvement in Nasi. I remain loyal to TNP and my involvement in Nasicournia does not change that. I go to lengths to try and make sure that anything I say is not perceived as such, because I know I'm being watched by some people who do not yet trust me for any kind of statement that could be perceived as an attempt to influence something on behalf of my other citizenship. I think other people tow the line daily in that regard, which isn't unexpected, but that is not what I am here to do. I've loved TNP for a very long time and my interest here is purely out of that love for this region. However, I do love Nasicournia as well. As a citizen of TNP I would take part in discussions if this region came up over there; I see it the same way here, and just wanted to know where in the law I am prohibited from doing so, so I may better respect the regional law.

P.S. Could you possibly split this thread? Thank ye muchly if you will.

Pope Hope:

I never forget what region I am from.  I have two homes, and TNP is the only region I've ever taken a vested interest in--and this was long before any alphabet soup controversies.  I've wanted to take part here as a citizen for ages, and only restrained myself previously because I personally didn't want to cause any stratched propaganda from being hurled at the previous Cabinets at the time(s).

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I am in no way trying to prevent you from being a citizen here, just to get that straight.

I make a differentiation when speaking on behalf of my other region versus speaking as a citizen here.  In fact, Nasicournia for the most part is spoken for by the various departments there; not me.  However, if I see my region being attacked, I am able to offer insight from the perspective of dual residency there.

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I haven't seen Nasi attacked here yet, and this mess started when I asked you to differentiate. I am not so stupid as to think that you wouldn't speak out for a region you live in, what I am asking you to do is to ensure that you are clear on where your loyalities lie when you are here.

I'm not trying to "make a fuss" or be combative.  Other people pointed out the inconsistency to me before I stated my concern publicly.  I'm generally interested in hearing your response and the opinions of other people here.  I think duality is a serious issue, especially in a region like TNP in which the concept has been repeatedly taken advantage of in the past.

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What 'inconsistencies'? The only time I personally have seen one was Gaspo posting the stuff from Biyah. I shut that thread down pretty quickly, if you'll recall.

Duality is a serious issue and it is precisely because of that I am raising this point with you.

As to the Constitution: my nation resides in the North Pacific, and it is not leaving.  The only time it has left was in the past when I was not as involved here for periods of time and I accidentally let it CTE.  If it weren't for that it would be much larger, because my love for this region goes back a long way in time.

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If your nation resides in the North Pacific, then when you are on this forum are you also a resident of the North Pacific?

While the nations I have in TNP and Nasi are indeed different, they are part of the same empire (what I RP as the "Hopian Empire"), and maintained by the same Cabinet and traditional leader.  I am open about my dual involvement.  Not everyone is, but regardless of whether they are or not, they are allowed to speak from their experience in their other regions.  I ask only that the same rights be accorded to me.  I do feel somewhat persecuted, but I'm not "up in arms" over it--like I told you, I understand the concern and indeed expected it.  I just desire some further clarification, because I don't feel that I should be threatened with legal action or censure for openly responding in regards to my insight on my other home.

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I am not threatening you with legal action or censure for offering insight, if you wished to provide my ministry with valuable insight into dealing with Nasicournia I would be very thankful. The issue I do have is when you claim to be the ruler of the same nation, which makes it very hard to me to differentiate between your Nasicournian Citizenship and TNP citizenship, and where your primary interests lie.

I'm no stranger to this concept.  Nasicournia itself has become a sort of melting pot of international leaders along with our purely Nasicournian-only citizenship.  As long as our citizens come to us openly about their other involvements, as I've said before, even invaders are welcome to participate in our region.  We have residents who were TNP first and then came to us requesting citizenship--their input and insight into the goings on in their other regions is just seen as natural and a welcome addition; perhaps the cultural difference in my regions is why I am feeling the way I am about this issue here.

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Input and insight is welcome, a nation who makes play at being a citizen whilst actually acting in the interests of their home region is not; We have had issues with manipulation before. All I am asking is that if you are here as a Citizen, you should make sure to remember that.

I've seen Fedele and others mention their other regions frequently when an issue involving those regions comes up; most recently in the RLA Invader forum griefing, in which both invaders and RLA members had things to say from their perspective as citizens of affiliated regions.  I personally see nothing wrong with that; all I'm saying is that I would like to be afforded the same right to offer my perspective as a Nasicournian if my other home comes up.

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Let me rephrase: Mentioning Nasicournia is fine, talking about her, offering insight into her actions... I don't mind that, it is useful and rather nice but: Making official statements and using your citizenship here to futher Nasicournia's causes are not fine.

As for having our cake and eating it too, that's a rather harsh way to put it, but isn't that what all dual citizens of any regions are doing?  They remain citizens of their original regions, but for whatever reason they have grown to feel as though TNP is home as well.  For the most part when I am here I am thinking only of TNP, but I feel if the subject of Nasicournia comes up, or if a discussion is occuring in which I feel my experience as a Nasicournian applies/could help me demonstrate a point or offer some insight, I should be allowed to do so.

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You are not a dual-citizen, we have no provisions for dual citizenry in our constitution. You are a citizen of both regions as different nations, yes. Dual-citizenry would suggest that one nation held a citizenship position in both.

P.S. Could you possibly split this thread?  Thank ye muchly if you will.

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Was about to suggest it Done anyway.

GVA:

Just to make my point a bit clearer:

If you were to become a Diplomat, would you be an Ambassador from TNP or an Ambassador for Nasicournia?

If you were to run as a Minister, would you be running as a TNP citizen or a Nasicournian citizen?

When you vote on legislature, do you vote in the best interests of Nasicournia, or in the best interests of TNP?

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Okay, to address your edits...if I were top become a diplomat from TNP, I would be an Ambassador from TNP. However, because I do RP the same leader and my name is associated in some circles with Nasicournia, I would probably refrain from taking up such a duty, unless the region in which I am serving as a diplomat does not already associate my name with Nasicournia.

If I were to run as a Minister, I would definitely be running as a TNP citizen. However, due to my affiliation with Nasicournia, I do not feel welcome to run for a Ministry position (and at this point in time I am still getting accustomed to being purely a citizen; to me it would require additional time and energy spent here in the capacity as a citizen before I considered such a thing).

I was first told that my application to join the NPA was denied because I was involved in too many other regions and wouldn't be able to devote my energy to the NPA. However, when I pointed out that I am only militarily active in one other region, Nasicournia, whereas many current NPA members are involved actively in the militaries of more than one other region, I was told that my application was denied because the North Pacific Cabinet didn't want TNP to be called an "ADN puppet" again. If I am expected to stictly wear the TNP hat while here and not mention my involvement in Nasi, then shouldn't the same tenant be applied to me? I accepted this judgement though I did remark that I was disappointed to see the application being denied due to the threat of possible propagana backlash.

Is this an isse then of my name? Do I need to change nations in order to be treated as an equal here? If I am considered, as you say, to be strictly a citizen of TNP when I am here, then why was my NPA application denied based on my involvement in Nasicournia, while others with dual citizenships in other regions are openly accepted? By this logic, even Fedele shouldn't be denied NPA membership were he to apply, as when he is here, he is a TNP citizen only, and his activity in LWU shouldn't count against him. However, he, like myself, has been open about his other involvements, and hence is being held accountable for his activities elsewhere. By this logic, the "you can't have your cake and eat it to" addage can be reversed and applied to regional standards--either we're expected to ditch all expressions and insight about extra-regional involvement while we're here and therefore should have all bias against us due to those other involvements dropped, or we are allowed to admit we have citizenship in other regions that does not affect our activity in TNP but should be okay to talk about, and accept that as a result we may be limited in our activity here based on that dual citizenship.

On your latest reply...I will respond when I return home later today.

For now I'll just clarify one thing: I'm not here to further any Nasi agenda. Nasicournia actually has no agenda here anyway, other than to continue our long-honored friendship and alliance with this region. If I speak officially for Nasicournia, I will say so, otherwise what I'm expressing is purely my personal insight from experience and/or my opinion. As I stated somewhere else around here, I rarely speak in an official capacity for Nasi nowadays anyway; most official statements come out of the respective departments depending on the situation.

A question as well...so because there is no official policy on dual-citizenship, that means it is assumed as non-existent or not allowed?

I am really honestly not trying to stir up trouble of any sort, I'm just raising a concern. I do feel that this issue needs to be discussed not only in respect to me but as a whole, and want to make sure I'm completely aware of what separation is required of me in respect to my involvements.

NPA membership, like the Diplomatic Corps membership are at the whim of the Minister in charge.

We are in the business of rejecting those we believe to be a conflict of interest. Whether you like it or not, one of your personas is the head of Nasicournia/NasiCorps. One of my personas in a Lieutenant in the People's Militia, I would not expect to recieve access to the NPA because of that, regardless of my duality.


If you don't agree with me then maybe we can make a concession, could you, out of curtosy and to prevent confusion, make it very clear when you are posting as an official representative of Nasicournia? If you can do that, then I promise I'll shut the hell up about it.

:iagree:
Pope, I questioned your behaviour in the nasi embassy. I would guess that while there you act as a representative of nasi, being that your the founder and that is soverign turf, as it were.

make it very clear when you are posting as an official representative of Nasicournia?

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this seems like a good suggestion here.

I don't believe TNP has made a real decision on duality. Perhaps we should? I know that some people believe it is completely impossible to hold separate positions, and therefore see things more like the way PH runs her nations, while others believe that Fedele/Scardino can keep it separate. Personally, I think people should be allowed to have separate identities to some extent, but if those other identities could conflict with their TNP identity in such a way that is detrimental to TNP, special considerations should be made. (as in not allowing Fedele access to the NPA )

It's pretty much impossible to say that someone is acting in the best interests of TNP or not. As long as they're not actively plotting the downfall of the government, who is anyone to decry that one person's vision is better than anothers?

If you plan to hold citizenship in regions other than TNP and speak on behalf of those regions while you are a member of TNP, then I think you should make clear in those posts that you speak not as a member of TNP, but rather as a member of that region. (Or, you can create a separate account for the other region)

i agree with that

As long as they're not actively plotting the downfall of the government, who is anyone to decry that one person's vision is better than anothers?

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[size=-3]*cough* last terms security council! *cough*[/size]

I am moderately with Pope Hope on this, most of us reside both in TNP and elsewhere, even our Delegate has duality with Lemuria.

Some of us play by different names across NS to try and reduce this issue, others like myself and PH tend to use the same name across the game.

Back in the days when I was less known I had four Government positions in four different regions and herein lays the problem...NS notoriety... these days if I enter any region I get asked "IP from TNP?" Once a player reaches a certain level of fame in NS, they become synonomous with a region, because PH has a very successful region of her own and is a figurehead for the ADN, most players forget her seperate interest as a TNP member.

Where I disagree with her, is probably because of my own prejudices and thus rightly or wrongly I suspect that in her posts she is trying to subtlety pass ADN propoganda.

I am unsure of a perfect solution, perhaps that PH employs another Nasi representative to speak on behalf of her region here and that she reduces her involvement in TNP to simply her TNP half of her duality and posts purely as a TNP citizen... but I think that would be unfair on her, unless we forced all dual citizens to do that... although when I think about of it, most of us do... you do not hear me discus the regions I am the founder of, Eras hardly speaks of Lem and the master of Duality, Sarda... is totally capable of keeping all the boundaries in check!

But ultimately we are all individual and we must play in a way that suits each and everyone of us, TNP is a feeder and to that ends, we imho should be more accepting of duality, whatever we feel about the regions our citizens co-reside in.

Pope Hope, I explained to you the reasoning for your NPA application being rejected!! I did not make the decision but I support it!!

We are trying to forge our own identity as an army and therefore are not looking to inflate our numbers with nations that take their orders from elsewhere!! Each player is allowed only one UN member nation, so how can one player be a member of more than one army?! Whose orders will overrride the other?! Would you pull out of a NasiCorps mission if ordered to another mission by NPA Command?!

This is not specific to you, we have a few others collecting membership badges that need to decide which army they take orders from!!

As for the other discussion!! I believe that duality is a tricky situation, especially if you are RPing the same character across different regions!! I agree that when you post as a Nasicournian, you make that clear!! If that is not possible for you then please register another account so you can separate the nations which represent you here and in Nasicournia!!

Again, this is not specific to you as others have been doing the same thing!! TNP is trying to create its own identity, sure, we will always have people here who have interests in other regions and that is fine!! However, we need to ensure they are acting as TNP residents with TNP's interests at heart and not merely here to manipulate the region for their home region!!

I don;t think anyone is doing that to any great extent, but we do need to draw a line if we see someone heading in that direction!!

Poltsamaa:

Each player is allowed only one UN member nation, so how can one player be a member of more than one army?! Whose orders will overrride the other?! Would you pull out of a NasiCorps mission if ordered to another mission by NPA Command?!

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I knew there was something else I had wanted to say in my above post!

Far more than any other area of TNP, the NPA is a position that does not suit duality, for exactly the reason Polts has mentioned. Even if the NPA was working with the NasiCorps (or any ADN military) what would be the point of receiving the instruction twice or worse receiving opposing orders. Surely PH even you must agree there would be far too much possibility of conflict that you would have to settle for just one army. If you were to be allowed to join the NPA would you drop the NasiCorps? And how could you assure our military leaders of chinese walls?

Those hats are nice, may I get a third one for my Stars nation? :wacko:

I have one big nation in TNP, my UN one, Kitabo. TNP is the home of Kitabo and Kitabo will stay here hopefully for a long time.
I have one nation in Stars, created for the purpose of replacing Kitabo after the return to TNP. This nation, New Kitabo, is a Stars government member. Stars has given Kitabo a temporary friendly home, therefore I like Stars very much and like to contribute to the future of this region.
I have one nation in Nasicournia since a couple of days, a former puppet to play around with, Microstuff. A simple Nasi citizen. Nasicournia is friendly. we have great smilies on the forum and the political and behavioral approach is very different. A very interesting and funny region I am also starting to like quite much.

In all forums I am registered as Mr.Gaunt.
All nations are - somehow - lead by Leland Gaunt, even though they have different political systems.
TNP and Stars have an equal value, both in a totally different way. This may also apply to Nasi in the near future.

If this is causing trouble for anyone, I would be happy to receive some advice how to behave when things are discussed here concerning TNP-Stars, TNP-Nasi, or even TNP-Nasi-Stars issues. I would not be happy being forced to act as a TNP nation only or being forced to create double accounts to represent my different nations.

What about including the relevant hat at beginning of each post?
Easy to understand and really funny. Maybe the pic size should be reduced before.
:wink:

edit: additions, spelling

I'm really rather with PH on this one. Though lately I've divested myself of many of my titles and positions in other regions, when I had many positions, I always held them as the same leader. "Emperor Villiamus II" (though I rarely even bother with RPing enough to use the name) runs all of my nations. However, when acting as an elected or appointed official in or on behalf of a region, I understand that it is my duty to act in that region's best interests. I cannot say that I maintain complete duality. No one can, it's a psychological fact. Other outside knowledge can inadvertently affect decisions. However, I do my best to maintain focus on the best interests of the region in which I'm acting.

Pope Hope, in almost everything I've witnessed has seemed fairly successful in doing the same.

By this logic, even Fedele shouldn't be denied NPA membership were he to apply, as when he is here, he is a TNP citizen only, and his activity in LWU shouldn't count against him.

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I would hope that in such a circumstance I would be considered a spy...

Also, the fact that I have shizophrenia/multiple personality disorder helps with my duality although it can be a bit sporatic.

I'm relatively sure I could (as MoD) deny anyone acceptance into the NPA, for any or no reason at all. As could GoalVA with the Diplomatic Corps. It basically boils down to a personal judgement call on the part of the specific Minister.

Each applicant is considered individually. I made a decision that the negatives of admitting you, Pope Hope, outweighed the positives. Our two groups are already capable of working together, and forcing you to choose between conflicting orders didn't seem like it would be very productive.