NPIA/RLA discussion

Tresville

Tresville

TNPer
I'm sorry that this is posted here...but I could not find a Important Discussions forum anywhere...since this is an Internal matter...i figured i'd post it here. Please move this to a more appropriate place if necessary.


Quotes come fromTaking a Stance Thread


Quoting Fedele
Now, in light of what I have seen, I think NPIA should take a personal stance on the matter of forum crashing. Given my dual roles I don't think I should be one to write up a rough draft (or any draft, for that matter) but I do think that we should have a piece of legislature proposed in which the NPIA's ability to crash a forum is either taken away or limited.
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The NPIA is not connected to the Army. It is not a defender intel agency like the RLA may have. Their is no reason for an agent to crash and destroy an invader forum. While I ran the Agency....spy missions were simple info gathering missions, during the NPD....no NPIA member was sent in to Destroy S4. The Agency's objectives are regional security...a simple addition to the NPIA rules that forum "destroying is illegal" should ease people's minds....just a suggestion.

Quoting Haor Chall
Personally I would like to see TNP rescind the Lion-Star Pact as a result of the RLA's actions, rather than add something to the legal code to cover this sort of thing.
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Actions that were commited by 1 or 2 people does not mean that the whole group should suffer. They released a statement and made it clear that that mission was not authorized. Investigation is pending...in my opinion....their is no reason for this pact to be effected.
 
I've been thinking on this for some time now and though what the RLA did was terrible, I think its pretty unnecessary to drag out legistlation for the NPIA. Intelligence gatherers do not burn their bridges by exposing themselves. Seems a bit counter productive to the agency to do things like that.

As for the RLA specifically? I must admit I'm still pissed about it, but still on the fence about the pact. I'd really hate to hurt the group for the actions of a few rogues.

That's my :2cents: .
 
WishyWashyWonder:
I'd really hate to hurt the group for the actions of a few rogues.
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Do you not recall that they did the same thing (with permanent effects) to DEN and The Black Hawks? When RLA does this repeatedly, can it really be considered to be the actions of a few?

RLA Press Release:
In addition to changing the board description to RLA property, the elusive agents with access to the administrator CP declared that the boards had been taken over by defenders from the Red Liberty Alliance and the Alliance Defense Network
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Interesting... not just RLA...

RLA Press Release:
a member of The Central Soviet qualified this as a an appropriate correction for their insolence.
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A high ranking member of the government supporting it...

RLA Press Release:
Defenders and allies of the Red Liberty Alliance will continue to stage ceaseless psychological operations of all sorts against invaders and will use any means necessary to eliminate this so-called “threat” to the sovereignty and system of the Red Liberty Alliance, its friends and allies!
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Doesn't sound like they plan on stopping any time soon, either.


(The emphasis shown through bolding and italicising the text in the quotes is not mine but the emphasis placed by the writer)
 
The point is, is that the NPIA has a completely different function to the AIA or RLAI.

The NPIA is not involved in any infiltration or spying for the NPA, it is an organisation that's solely responsible is the defence of TNP.

It's more MI5 than MI6.


I'd be happy if the NPIA would consider adding a rule against destruction to their guidelines, but I don't feel we should be compairing our agency to the others out there.
 
I tend to think that there is no need for any addition to legislation regarding the NPIA to specifically cover forum vandalism!!

I do think that the Lion Star agreement needs to be seriously looked at as I do not want TNP dragged through the mud by the RLA if they decided to do it a fourth time!!

In my personal opinion, it was not the rogue actions of a few and the RLA's past record of similar attacks is proof enough for me that this was a planned attack by the RLA in full knowledge of the hierachy!!
 
From what I heard, the ADN denied involvement...

Also, I've understood the NPIA as more an organization that serves TNP interests by gathering information, not one that actively tries to cause changes (covertly or not) in NS regional politics. Is that impression correct? It's not quite like the CIA, is it? :ph43r:
 
Ermarian:
From what I heard, the ADN denied involvement...

Also, I've understood the NPIA as more an organization that serves TNP interests by gathering information, not one that actively tries to cause changes (covertly or not) in NS regional politics. Is that impression correct? It's not quite like the CIA, is it? :ph43r:
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As far as I know, NPIA is strictly concerned with internal security rather than actual James Bond-esque spying.
 
To mods/admins: I agree this to be an internal matter, and do not request this be moved.

The NPIA has proven themselves a responsible and upstanding organization to this point. I see no need for legislation that could possibly inhibit them. The atrocity of the actions regarding the forum crashing is atrocious, and I do not believe, given such stringent qualifications for entry, that any NPIA member would consider such a tactic appropriate to any situation. And even if they were to, the reprocussions of any agents acting in such a manner would be incredible.

If the NPIA wishes to so limit themselves on this matter, they may do so, but I do not believe we have any cause or justification to pass a law regarding it, for the possible exception of giving the NPIA ability to internally punish any agent that might go about doing such a thing.
 
Actions that were commited by 1 or 2 people does not mean that the whole group should suffer. They released a statement and made it clear that that mission was not authorized. Investigation is pending...in my opinion....their is no reason for this pact to be effected.
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IMO, there is every reason for the pact to be effected.

As for whether this was the action of a small group of "rogues" or not.... Personally I sincerely doubt it was. Not only that but numerous people came out after the event on the RLA forum, supporting and praising the action. However if it is the case that it was an action carried out by a handful of "rogues" without offical support, than it would appear the RLA is unable to control its members and I think we should be hesitant about co-operating with a group which is either incompetent, or it is culpible.
 
OPArsenal:
Ermarian:
From what I heard, the ADN denied involvement...
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The Defense Network will always deny this sort of thing. They are quite adept at alienating members that partake in actions that may make the ADN look bad.
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Sorry to interject...

Although I know nothing about the intelligence secrets of the ADN, I trust the statement of disinvolvement to be accurate. RLA leadership has come out and said that the ADN had nothing to do with anything, and given the current state of relations between the ADN and RLA, that says a lot. ;)

Alright...*fades into shadows*
~friendly neighborhood ADN bum chum
 
To assert that this action was undertaken by "rogue" agents without the knowledge or complicity of the upper echelon of the RLA and its intelligence service is disingenuous, at best.

Blackbird, director of the RLAI, edited and approved Red Faction's article prior to its release. He not only didn't disavow the actions chronicled within, he apparently made no attempt to temper its more inflammatory passages.

Xha'dam, the General Secretary of the Executive Committee of the RLA, initially supported this action and in an interview with Soigacas of the Meritocracy seems to still be trying to justify it. Others on the RLA forum are on record stating their approval.

It is only after an unprecedented backlash from across the NS political spectrum that we saw some backpedaling from the RLA. It is only after the fact that we heard talk of "internal investigations" and the public distancing between the RLA leadership and the agents involved.

The time to take action was before the publication of the officially approved press release. However, as this is not the first time the RLA has been involved in such an effort, I believe their pattern of behavior speaks more eloquently on the culture of the RLA than any after-the-fact explanations ever can.

I personally disapprove of our continued relationship with such a group.
 
Err, OPA, I'm not sure what all you're referring to, but I can personally [ADN hat] assure you the ADN had nothing to do this. If it turns out any individual did, they will be thrown out on their arses with only the golden goose they stole from you and the magical beans used to procure it obtained last year by blackmailing aliens. There is no need for a cult-style suicide (unless it is old skool ectoplasm kool-aid in which case you should at least still consider it first). Long before this happend I even had a conversation with LWU folks about this kind of activity and how I have no qualms working with any in-game rival to stop it.

In that same conversation Fedele developed Anarcho-Fascism but at the time I was watching Law & Order and therefore played no direct role in its inception. :B):

While I don't think legislation is necessary, I do believe that this event has set a precedent (it's already happened again), and therefore simply including some kind of warning against nefarious intelligence gathering of any kind (hacking, cracking, phishing, terrorizing, greifing) in NPIA training materials (I assume there is such a thing) could be a good idea.

It is notable that the most recent victims, The Stronghold, are claiming a TNP resident, Gordonel, is responsible for the recent griefing of their own forums:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/thepacific/inde...opic=2816&st=45

This, to me, brings the issue even closer to home, and therefore it does seem that some kind of posted disapproval against such actions may be advisible.
 
Gordy resigned from both the RA and RV rolls, so him being resident is contentious at best.

Oh, and OpA, Francoism doesn't give you free reign to blame the ADN for everything :p


[size=-1]Common sense does... *ducks*[/size]
 
Long before this happend I even had a conversation with LWU folks about this kind of activity and how I have no qualms working with any in-game rival to stop it.
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Now, because of the whole s2 ordeal and the fact that twoslit has banned me numerous times since we have changed forums ( :rofl: ) I don't have access to the private messages we exchanged but I distinctly remember you telling me that this was a legitimate tactic and if it happens to someone it is only their fault for being stupid enough to let it happen.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you said and only the latter part of the statement is what you meant but, unfortunately, I cannot go back and read it again to see. I only know what I remember and that is how I remember it.
 
Fortunately, I do have access to my s2 account. I also saved our entire correspondence, and it's still intact. Why are you both accusing me of lying and lying yourself? I thought we were on the same side in this kind of thing.

Furthermore, I initially contacted you with concern of the Nasi forum being hacked, not the other way around. The "we are so stupid for allowing this to happen we deserve it and it's a legitimate tactic" wouldn't really apply there, can it? We then discussed potential problems we were both having with hackers, quite amicably, I might add (I sent you a firewall link!).

This is my favorite bit:

Me:
Thank you.

You were too?  I have no problem telling you guys what happened, since this is OOC.  EW and I talked through that puppet for awhile, first IC and then some OOC, so I think we have a pretty good rapport for separating game events from OOC stuff like this.  I'd track a hacker to the end of the world for anyone, even my biggest in-game enemy, because they make me so mad.  lol

In fact, here's the PM I sent EW, in case you hear anything or anything similar happens to you:
Me:
About *****...I'm very confused.  He's a new Nasicournian who told me he moved a puppet to your region (*****) after he joined ours...but it was never an NIA mission.  He joined the NIA some time after that, but has never even posted in his NIA forum nor has he accepted his first mission yet.

Why am I telling you this?

Because I suspect a hacking, and that's OOC, not IC.  In-game I consider spying one of the most fun parts of the game...I've been doing it since I started playing NS, so spying and trying to catch spies is great, and all in good fun.  HOWEVER, since that kid only PMed two people about how he'd moved his puppet to your region, me being one of them, the only way I can think that *****'s "source" got the information is if the other person's account was hacked and PMs read.  For one thing, the "source" was wrong in saying that ****** was sent to your region as an NIA agent, because he wasn't.  I'm thinking maybe the "source" read one side of a two-sided conversation and that's how he got wrong and skewed information.

Anyway, if you hear anything about a hacking, please let me know.  I'd do the same for you or anyone else in a heartbeat--if you ask around, you'll find out that I've come down hard on both invaders and defenders in the past who've participated in those kind of activities--both in anger, in stopping interaction with them, and on occasion even reporting it to their ISP.  It spoils the fun of working your way up through actual espionage for the rest of us and is, of course, also illegal.  We won't even accept information we suspect has been hacked.

Anyway...I'd appreciate it if you do write me if you hear anything concerning cracked or hacked accounts. Everyone has changed their passwords now, but even if it's already been done, someone's getting it from moi.  In the meantime, the next time I let a Nasicournian move a puppet to one of your regions, I'll make sure it's a professional on the payroll.  ;)
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And yes, that last part was a playful IC-jab. :p I feel like the better rapport I have with invaders, the more fun it is going up against you guys in battles...then we can playfully make fun of each other and actually enjoy the game...you know what I mean.

Anyway, I hope this helps you with your problem, and I'd also appreciate it if you hear anything and would tell me so I can check it out and bust some cheater @ss. ;)

I've had my firewall blocking access from some unknown IPs lately, but I'm not sure how that could be related?

PH/Hezz[/size]
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I know people try to blame/frame me for everything, but I really thought from talking to you that even though you're an invader you weren't one of those people. Next time before accusing me of lying, make sure I don't have direct evidence to the contrary lying around. That seems to work the best for other folks, anyway (the less disprovable the more likely it's true, apparently!). I have all the other PMs as well if this one doesn't refresh your memory well enough. I also had the same convo with your comrade wolf through NS TGs. The above is pretty difficult to misinterpret. :rolleyes: I suppose it also proves I'm not just now coming out of woodwork in my dislike for these practices.

GVA: I wasn't aware that he resigned. The same basic idea remains anyway, I think. It never hurts to post a warning, and could make some people think that otherwise might engage in an activity like this in the future. Since TNP is a feeder, many will move on from here at one point or another. It just wouldn't hurt.

Edit: Stupid quotes

also...

*** is to protect the innocent
is relevent as a direct contradiction of Fedele's accusation
The forum turned out not hacked. Someone was hijacking IRC and other chat accounts and impersonating people, which is why they got their wires all crossed on relevent info (in case anyone cares).
 
That's right, I remember that (and I have the firewall on right now) but I thought you said at some point in there that it was legit...

I must be thinking of someone else...

....damned if I know who, though... :ermm:
 
GoalVA:
Oh, and OPA, Francoism doesn't give you free reign to blame the ADN for everything :p


[size=-1]Common sense does... *ducks*[/size]
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:rofl: :lol: You're my hero.

Clarification: I was not blaming the Defense Network(tm) for the griefing, and I further did not mean to imply that the ADN(tm) had anything to do with said griefing.

However, I am of the belief that some users who may belong to the ADN(tm) in some capacity did. But, I repeat, I do not believe that the ADN(tm) sanctioned these reprehinsible actions. Likewise, I do not believe that the High [size=-5]Borg[/size] Queen of Pope Hope(tm) and by extension Nasicournia(tm) had any involvement in the griefing, be it officially or otherwise.

Where's the :whew: smiley?
 
*Sighs angerly*

If any of you cares anymore, or wants to listen to reason, this member of the Central Soviet from the time of learning of this event opposed this matter and repeatedly called it disgusting and very disturbing. As a influential member of the Red Liberty Alliance, if I had known that this disgusting event was taking place, I would have called for it to be stopped.

However, when I did find out about this disturbing event both in the RLA information section and TPC embassy in TWP, I immediatly thought of how to stop these things from happening, and to prosecute the individuals involved. I will state this now, TRF and Ket were the only two individuals present in this from the RLA, and only apperently Blackbird knew and tried to make them stop. It is stated in the RLAI section of the RLA boards that board crashing is not permitted. However, it appears that these two had different ideas.

Anyways, the morning after I first read about this I went before the Central Soviet of the Red Liberty Alliance, and made a motion to my fellow comrades to form a investigation commitee of sorts to fully investigate this. Support for this motion was high in the Central Soviet, and now the RLA Oversight Committee will begin its work right after elections finish, in less than 48 hours iirc.

The world will see with the findings of this committee what really happened those nights, and hopefully we can get this behind us.

I don't know if you all get the gist of this, and honestly, I don't care right now. I'm just tired of the amount of shots being taken against innocent members of my organization by lumping us together with the likes of TRF.
 
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