Abortion
- Thread starter OPArsenal
- Start date
WishyWashyWonder
TNPer
Just adding this Link for any who want to see how the previous discussion was going. http://s2.invisionfree.com/The_North_Pacif...?showtopic=5683
Pierconium
TNPer
Against.
WishyWashyWonder
TNPer
Well, Since this is an open discussion. Why, may I ask, are you against it? Do you have a specific reason?
Tresville
TNPer
I am Catholic and personally I am against abortion (in regards to my or my wife/girlfriends life).
But as a catholic I also believe in Freewill. It is a womans body (though a man should also have a say...u didn't get pregnant by yo self) and she should have the right to decide what to do with it. Who are we to take this right away from a woman?
I believe that abortion should be legal....but we should make the process of getting an abortion harder. Make a woman learn about other options (adoption), make her watch a video of an abortion. Teach them to use contraceptives, educate them.
A man should also have a say...if he wants to....half that baby is his...when that child is born...we are responsible for it....we should have some rights in regards to the child before birth as well.
But as a catholic I also believe in Freewill. It is a womans body (though a man should also have a say...u didn't get pregnant by yo self) and she should have the right to decide what to do with it. Who are we to take this right away from a woman?
I believe that abortion should be legal....but we should make the process of getting an abortion harder. Make a woman learn about other options (adoption), make her watch a video of an abortion. Teach them to use contraceptives, educate them.
A man should also have a say...if he wants to....half that baby is his...when that child is born...we are responsible for it....we should have some rights in regards to the child before birth as well.
Pierconium
TNPer
I believe in the sanctity of human life.
It is my belief that each human life begins in the mind of God before inception, as is stated in the Bible. Therefore it is murder to abort a pregnancy.
As to the freewill mentioned above, while God does grant the freewill to choose to believe in Him or face damnation once that choice is made there are certain rules and obligations a Christian must observe. Condoning abortion is condoning murder, in my opinion. An unborn child can not defend itself, someone should.
If a woman makes the choice to have sex then she must accept the consequences. Note: I do not care about the "what about incest and rape?" arguements. These instances constitute less than 1/100th of 1% of abortions in the United States each year. The vast majority of abortions are from females that had consentual sex and could not face the consequences.
It is my belief that each human life begins in the mind of God before inception, as is stated in the Bible. Therefore it is murder to abort a pregnancy.
As to the freewill mentioned above, while God does grant the freewill to choose to believe in Him or face damnation once that choice is made there are certain rules and obligations a Christian must observe. Condoning abortion is condoning murder, in my opinion. An unborn child can not defend itself, someone should.
If a woman makes the choice to have sex then she must accept the consequences. Note: I do not care about the "what about incest and rape?" arguements. These instances constitute less than 1/100th of 1% of abortions in the United States each year. The vast majority of abortions are from females that had consentual sex and could not face the consequences.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Here's my opinion about abortion. I don't like it unless there is a valid medical reason. The first the mother's life is in danger. The second reason is if the pregnancy was the result of a rape.
Now here's the third reason - and I warn that it is a very controversial stance that I am taking. If a child is going to be born with some horrible defect that would inflict a horrific life upon that child, then I would have to support abotrion in that instance.
I also do not believe in abortions for convenience's sake and certainly not as a means of birth control.
If the whole issue is taken as a moral or religious issue, I don't think that anyone has a right to assert their morality or beliefs upon another. If a woman wants or doesn't want an abortion, it is her business alone and she will have to deal with the moral consequences on her own. I don't think the government should be legislating morality or a specific set of religious beliefs, but there needs to be a line drawn insofar as how late an abortion can be performed.
Now here's the third reason - and I warn that it is a very controversial stance that I am taking. If a child is going to be born with some horrible defect that would inflict a horrific life upon that child, then I would have to support abotrion in that instance.
I also do not believe in abortions for convenience's sake and certainly not as a means of birth control.
If the whole issue is taken as a moral or religious issue, I don't think that anyone has a right to assert their morality or beliefs upon another. If a woman wants or doesn't want an abortion, it is her business alone and she will have to deal with the moral consequences on her own. I don't think the government should be legislating morality or a specific set of religious beliefs, but there needs to be a line drawn insofar as how late an abortion can be performed.
Helvetiklande
TNPer
I'm Pro-Choice; mainly because I'm not a woman and I think it is wrong for me to tell a woman what to do with her body. Also, I think that abortion should be legal in the instance of rape, medical emergancy, and prospective birth defect in the child, but it should be fully legal for any unforseen needs.
Insane Power
TNPer
I have not read the original thread on this.
Personally I feel there is no right answer, I respect those both for and against abortion.
What I do feel though, is it comes down to the individuals and their circumstances. Sure, there are plenty of needless abortions, equally there are plenty of children born who's lives are made hell by the circumstances of their parents.
Being a parent is a huge decision, some people just know that they could not cope with the responcibility, or it was an accident from a one night stand, on that side of the coin is it fair to bring a child onto this earth that may not be loved, or may spend it's life going through the welfare system?
On the other side, it can be argued that the child has it's own rights to determine it's own life. Or that parents are playing God with their own offspring.
Ultimately, there are mistakes, there are circumstances that might harm the born child... because of that I feel abortion must remain attainable to every person. It has to come down to individual situations, but when it occurs, it should be done in a humane way. No back street needle pushers, it has to be done to protect the woman's ability to be able to mother at a later date and with minimum pain to the unborn.
I guess the final part of this, is should the Father have a say, well yes, but both parents need commitment. If they are so unsure as a couple as to whether they can parent, why were they both so committed to having the unprotected sex that caused the situation to arise?
As I stated, mistakes occur, the answer in my mind is to look at each one individually and not make a blanket solution.
Personally I feel there is no right answer, I respect those both for and against abortion.
What I do feel though, is it comes down to the individuals and their circumstances. Sure, there are plenty of needless abortions, equally there are plenty of children born who's lives are made hell by the circumstances of their parents.
Being a parent is a huge decision, some people just know that they could not cope with the responcibility, or it was an accident from a one night stand, on that side of the coin is it fair to bring a child onto this earth that may not be loved, or may spend it's life going through the welfare system?
On the other side, it can be argued that the child has it's own rights to determine it's own life. Or that parents are playing God with their own offspring.
Ultimately, there are mistakes, there are circumstances that might harm the born child... because of that I feel abortion must remain attainable to every person. It has to come down to individual situations, but when it occurs, it should be done in a humane way. No back street needle pushers, it has to be done to protect the woman's ability to be able to mother at a later date and with minimum pain to the unborn.
I guess the final part of this, is should the Father have a say, well yes, but both parents need commitment. If they are so unsure as a couple as to whether they can parent, why were they both so committed to having the unprotected sex that caused the situation to arise?
As I stated, mistakes occur, the answer in my mind is to look at each one individually and not make a blanket solution.
freedom and pride
TNPer
As for your third reason, Roman...let me tell you a story.
An ethics professor walks into his class and begins lis lecture.
OK class, we are going to discuss Abortion. Now I know everyone has a predisposition on the issue, so let's just jump to a senario.
Let's take a vote, in general, does a woman have a right to jsut jump and randomly get an abortion if she so chooses.
a minority of about 40% of the class raises their hands.
Well then, let me tell you the story.
This child will be a boy. His mother will die in his teens and leave him responsible for raising two younger siblings. As it is, he will be the 7th child out of 9, and receive horribly little attention.
Class what do you feel about abortion now?
about half of the class raises their hands
ok, let's continue....His father is a horrible alcoholic that wants him to be a prodigy...like mozart was. He beats the boy often and sometimes with bruises that disfigure his face. Also, His dad gives him mom syphillis and it is given to the boy at birth, which will cause deafness, then insanity, then death. Death at far too young of an age.
Furthermore, he realized that he could never marry, and thus in his later life, he went into steep depression and pain until his death.
Now class...how do you feel about aborting this child.
between two thirds and three forths vote in favor.
the professor speaks
COngratulations class...you just killed Beethoven.
That is my rebuttal.
An ethics professor walks into his class and begins lis lecture.
OK class, we are going to discuss Abortion. Now I know everyone has a predisposition on the issue, so let's just jump to a senario.
Let's take a vote, in general, does a woman have a right to jsut jump and randomly get an abortion if she so chooses.
a minority of about 40% of the class raises their hands.
Well then, let me tell you the story.
This child will be a boy. His mother will die in his teens and leave him responsible for raising two younger siblings. As it is, he will be the 7th child out of 9, and receive horribly little attention.
Class what do you feel about abortion now?
about half of the class raises their hands
ok, let's continue....His father is a horrible alcoholic that wants him to be a prodigy...like mozart was. He beats the boy often and sometimes with bruises that disfigure his face. Also, His dad gives him mom syphillis and it is given to the boy at birth, which will cause deafness, then insanity, then death. Death at far too young of an age.
Furthermore, he realized that he could never marry, and thus in his later life, he went into steep depression and pain until his death.
Now class...how do you feel about aborting this child.
between two thirds and three forths vote in favor.
the professor speaks
COngratulations class...you just killed Beethoven.
That is my rebuttal.
wizardofoz01
TNPer
Roman -
This is somewhat controversial, although I respect where you're coming from. Having said that, LL's example of Beethoven is well-known and somewhat overused. Beethoven is a distinguished exception; indeed I would call him a genius. And frankly geniuses don't play by the same rules the rest of us do.
I do want to point out the biological ramifications of such a stance. I'm not criticizing it on ethical/moral grounds or whatever, but one would have to strictly regulate what "profound crippling effects" would constitute a legitimate abortion for this reason that Roman suggested. Let's ASSUME for the sake of debate that we accept this idea. Now, we could say that profound birth defects (provided we can catch them, and we're not very good at that) would fall into the category of "abortion for mercy" (perhaps a bad term, but one I will use anyway).
What gets more complicated is IF, in the near future, we find ways to genetically analyze a fetus and determine its genetic makeup. What if the baby has a defect in the BRCA1 gene, which is the breast cancer susceptibility gene and confers something around an 85% chance lifetime to develop breast cancer? Does this fall into the category? Or perhaps not cancer but say, Huntington's disease, where people don't usually live beyond the age of 30-40 but lead productive lives before then?
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Mr. Stodgy.
No, seriously. I'm totally giving that comment a 100% approval rating.
freedom and pride
TNPer
and how are we to detect geniuses in the womb?
Do non-geniuses get fewer rights then?
What if you are one point away form the genius level...can you still contribute to society?
wha if you are born retarded....YES. All souls are God given and deserve an equal chance at life. Every person impacts the world in his or her own special way, and you can NEVER EVER justify MURDER on the basis of "mercy"
wizardofoz01
TNPer
My point is merely that geniuses are a bad example on either side of any debate, because they are so often exceptions to the rule.
As to the question of souls, everyone would have a different opinion on the nature of a soul and all that. However, I was pointing out that following the idea of "mercy" abortions for the sake of the future child might have bioethic consequences (apart from any spiritual or moral consequences we might think of).
As to the question of souls, everyone would have a different opinion on the nature of a soul and all that. However, I was pointing out that following the idea of "mercy" abortions for the sake of the future child might have bioethic consequences (apart from any spiritual or moral consequences we might think of).