Confirmation of Ambis to the Election Commission

Halsoni:

I hereby appoint @Lord Dominator, @Arty and @Ambis to the Election Commission.

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@Ambis has been appointed to the Election Commission by the Delegate. Noting that this nomination is subject to confirmation by the Regional Assembly, I hereby open the floor to debate and discussion on this matter. I invite the Delegate to give a statement in support of the nominee.

Should this reach a vote, I put the following motion before the Regional Assembly:

Motion:

The Regional Assembly, acting upon the nomination of the delegate, confirms Ambis to the Election Commission.

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A more controversial appointment, perhaps, but I'm convinced that Ambis is reformed, and after all, this is the region of second chances. He's got the skillset for it, and I believe this will be a stepping stone for him to get more involved in our region.

Can I check that @Ambis knows basic skills such as using a calculator, the understanding of Arabic numerals, additions, and the ability to use spreadsheets?

Edit: joking aside, and more to the point, the EC does have a complicated set of rules, and the CEC not the Delegate is responsible for training. (At least that was the case when I trained to be EC). It's not clear that someone who recently joined our region has the necessary understanding of our laws.

Halsoni:

A more controversial appointment, perhaps, but I'm convinced that Ambis is reformed, and after all, this is the region of second chances. He's got the skillset for it, and I believe this will be a stepping stone for him to get more involved in our region.

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I'm not so much concerned about Ambis' past history, but rather that I have not seen him participate in the region in any meaningful way since obtaining citizenship. In fact I wasn't even aware he is a citizen until I saw this appointment, and upon checking he has 6 forum posts, 7 Discord messages, zero RMB messages, and is not part of the Executive Staff. Although the Election Commission is not a difficult job, it plays an important role in protecting our democratic institutions, and I don't see it as a suitable role for someone who has had no track record at all in this region, much less someone who has a long track record aiding our enemies.

Well, I can't really defend him on those points, but what I will say is this: when I asked the citizenry who would be interested in the job, he was one of the few who stepped up and applied. I believe that is a sign of dedication. I can't say that for a lot of other people in this region who sit idly by when called on to do their duty or do their part for our region. He has assured me that he wishes to become more involved in TNP and is looking for opportunities to contribute. While I cannot really speak as to why his activity so far has been so low, I think that we should give him a shot regardless. If it doesn't work out, he won't be reappointed.

I'll let @Ambis address the core of your concern, though.

Halsoni:

Well, I can't really defend him on those points, but what I will say is this: when I asked the citizenry who would be interested in the job, he was one of the few who stepped up and applied.

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Well then what I will say is this: You posted these nominations 24 hours after you first pinged citizens to apply. Perhaps you could have given it a little more time.

I agree with Gorundu’s sentiment particularly as it relates to timing, since there wasn’t any particular urgency to these additional appointments. Casting a net for volunteers could afford additional time. I also appreciate the concern for past history compared to the track record developing in current engagement with the region.

I do want to push back a bit on the notion of activity though. Frankly, activity from most citizens in TNP has been lacking these days. If I were a newer player to TNP I may find little to do especially if my interests lean toward things that simply do not happen here. I do not think we can bar the door to volunteers based on how little they engage in recent TNP community matters, because recently there haven’t been many matters for the community to engage with. I will leave it to the applicant to explain where he’s at with this particular matter, but this element of the activity standard isn’t one that I think most players can honestly say they meet right now.

I don't know him. Actually, I'm still in the process of getting to know everyone and learning things from them. From what I can see, unfortunately, no one has a positive opinion of this person. Couldn't another candidate be considered in his place?

Gorundu:

Well then what I will say is this: You posted these nominations 24 hours after you first pinged citizens to apply. Perhaps you could have given it a little more time.

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You want activity, so those who're active will be considered. I'm not interested in appointing someone who takes a week to respond to a ping.

Meteturan:

Couldn't another candidate be considered in his place?

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Three appointments were made in case you weren't aware. If one of them is voted down by the Regional Assembly because he stepped up when only a few others did, despite not having been very active here for long, that still leaves two other candidates worth considering.

Pallaith:

If I were a newer player to TNP I may find little to do especially if my interests lean toward things that simply do not happen here.

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I don’t disagree with this sentiment. Even for me when I was recently considering whether there’s a few things I could get more involved in, I felt there were very few options. But this is mostly for a different conversation.

However, on the subject of this nomination specifically, I consider the nominee’s activity to be basically nonexistent. I might be fine with a low bar in terms of activity given current circumstances, but this is basically a nonexistent bar. That’s a few steps too far for me, I don’t think any explanation offered by the nominee can make up for a nonexistent activity record.

Halsoni:

You want activity, so those who're active will be considered. I'm not interested in appointing someone who takes a week to respond to a ping.

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So speed of responding to a ping is your criteria for activity? Not, like, have they done anything in this region at all?

Meteturan:

I don't know him. Actually, I'm still in the process of getting to know everyone and learning things from them. From what I can see, unfortunately, no one has a positive opinion of this person. Couldn't another candidate be considered in his place?

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I wouldn’t say that no one has a positive opinion, only a few people have replied to this so far. Just keep that in mind before you solidify your opinion.

I think it’s still worth acknowledging that someone who has not yet been very active in the region still chose to step forward when a call for volunteers was made. That matters. In practice, we often struggle to find people willing to take on administrative or behind-the-scenes roles like the Election Commission, and when a newer or quieter citizen raises their hand, that should at least count for something. There has been a lot of focus on Ambis’ current activity record, and while those concerns are understandable, I don’t think we should ignore the broader context. Many citizens who are highly vocal in debates or commentary do not step up when positions need to be filled. Criticism from the sidelines is, of course, everyone’s right, but it is rarely motivating for newer players who might be testing whether there is space for them to contribute in a more formal capacity.

The Election Commission is also a role with clear oversight and accountability mechanisms. This is not an irreversible appointment, nor is it a blank cheque. If the nominee does not meet expectations, that will become apparent quickly and can be addressed accordingly. I won't reappoint someone who does not fit the bill, but I am not of the belief that we should not at least give them a chance to prove themselves. If we want new or returning players to become more engaged, there has to be room for them to take their first real step somewhere. In this case, someone did exactly that when asked. I don’t think discouraging that impulse is in the long-term interest of the region.

Halsoni:

I think it’s still worth acknowledging that someone who has not yet been very active in the region still chose to step forward when a call for volunteers was made. That matters. In practice, we often struggle to find people willing to take on administrative or behind-the-scenes roles like the Election Commission, and when a newer or quieter citizen raises their hand, that should at least count for something. There has been a lot of focus on Ambis’ current activity record, and while those concerns are understandable, I don’t think we should ignore the broader context. Many citizens who are highly vocal in debates or commentary do not step up when positions need to be filled. Criticism from the sidelines is, of course, everyone’s right, but it is rarely motivating for newer players who might be testing whether there is space for them to contribute in a more formal capacity.

The Election Commission is also a role with clear oversight and accountability mechanisms. This is not an irreversible appointment, nor is it a blank cheque. If the nominee does not meet expectations, that will become apparent quickly and can be addressed accordingly. I won't reappoint someone who does not fit the bill, but I am not of the belief that we should not at least give them a chance to prove themselves. If we want new or returning players to become more engaged, there has to be room for them to take their first real step somewhere. In this case, someone did exactly that when asked. I don’t think discouraging that impulse is in the long-term interest of the region.

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I am new here, so I do not know people personally yet. I am trying to understand and evaluate individuals based on what has been said. I am not a candidate myself, as there are many areas where I am still learning, but since I joined, I have been active.

When it comes to taking an active role, I do not shy away from responsibility and I am willing to do what I can. For that reason, I did not take the comment about “criticizing from the sidelines” personally. If a duty is given to me, I would make the effort to learn and carry it out properly.

However, I repeat that I do not personally know the nominee. I am trying to assess them based on the information shared here. Given that, I believe it is reasonable to give them a chance.

Gorundu:

I'm not so much concerned about Ambis' past history, but rather that I have not seen him participate in the region in any meaningful way since obtaining citizenship. In fact I wasn't even aware he is a citizen until I saw this appointment, and upon checking he has 6 forum posts, 7 Discord messages, zero RMB messages, and is not part of the Executive Staff. Although the Election Commission is not a difficult job, it plays an important role in protecting our democratic institutions, and I don't see it as a suitable role for someone who has had no track record at all in this region, much less someone who has a long track record aiding our enemies.

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That's more a GP issue which I would refrain from commenting, but I think it's a fair point.

Meteturan:

I am new here, so I do not know people personally yet. I am trying to understand and evaluate individuals based on what has been said. I am not a candidate myself, as there are many areas where I am still learning, but since I joined, I have been active.

When it comes to taking an active role, I do not shy away from responsibility and I am willing to do what I can. For that reason, I did not take the comment about “criticizing from the sidelines” personally. If a duty is given to me, I would make the effort to learn and carry it out properly.

However, I repeat that I do not personally know the nominee. I am trying to assess them based on the information shared here. Given that, I believe it is reasonable to give them a chance.

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The Election Commission feed is on Discord and is public. Both @Gorundu and myself have been Election Commissioners before. The issue here is that it does actually involve a complicated ruleset, which does require that the chief election commissioner or another more senior commissioner to supervise. If someone is not committed to a region, you are wasting the time of those training them for the role.

Pallaith:

I agree with Gorundu’s sentiment particularly as it relates to timing, since there wasn’t any particular urgency to these additional appointments. Casting a net for volunteers could afford additional time. I also appreciate the concern for past history compared to the track record developing in current engagement with the region.

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Actually more to the point, the Delegate is not the one training new Election Commissioners on the rules of the EC, the CEC is (so I assume it's @Sil Dorsett again, as Sil taught me the rules, the rules ARE actually complicated. So it's the use of someone else's time to train a new EC, and if that person is not committed to the region, that wastes someone else's IC game time.

Pallaith:

I do want to push back a bit on the notion of activity though. Frankly, activity from most citizens in TNP has been lacking these days. If I were a newer player to TNP I may find little to do especially if my interests lean toward things that simply do not happen here. I do not think we can bar the door to volunteers based on how little they engage in recent TNP community matters, because recently there haven’t been many matters for the community to engage with. I will leave it to the applicant to explain where he’s at with this particular matter, but this element of the activity standard isn’t one that I think most players can honestly say they meet right now.

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You meet the criteria yourself. To be fair. It would be ironic though if you yourself are shoved with the role of doing the training on the ruleset.

Halsoni:

You want activity, so those who're active will be considered. I'm not interested in appointing someone who takes a week to respond to a ping.

Three appointments were made in case you weren't aware. If one of them is voted down by the Regional Assembly because he stepped up when only a few others did, despite not having been very active here for long, that still leaves two other candidates worth considering.

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I have enough work to have long switched off Discord notifications, otherwise I'd be drowning in thousands of messages per day from group chats in Teams/Slack/WhatsApp/WeCom etc., and I don't even use social media. Also ditto above - it's not your time being used to train a new EC, it's someone else's time.

Hi all. Apologies for the delay in response, I've been busy today. I'll try to hit as many things as I can

Simone:

Can I check that @Ambis knows basic skills such as using a calculator, the understanding of Arabic numerals, additions, and the ability to use spreadsheets?

Edit: joking aside, and more to the point, the EC does have a complicated set of rules, and the CEC not the Delegate is responsible for training. (At least that was the case when I trained to be EC). It's not clear that someone who recently joined our region has the necessary understanding of our laws.

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I can confirm that I own a very shiny TI-84, and intend for it to do all of my work :p. On your more serious question, I can confirm I have read the entirety of the TNP Legal code, including (notably) the relevant sections to my job. Those relevant section have been read and reread. I do understand the complexity of the job, and I can point you to my work in Thaecia where I possessed a similar job to this, and was very successful. I am a very fast learner, and I assure you that it will not take as long as you worry to get me where I need to be to do this job. Also, being fully honest, this system of voting does not involve google sheets doing math to calculate quotas, and I seemingly (from what I understand) will never be in a position to redistribute 0.014 votes. These facts both make me believe that the system of counting elections that I'm used to is a bit more complex than what I would be asked to do here, which I hope raises your confidence in me.

Gorundu:

I'm not so much concerned about Ambis' past history, but rather that I have not seen him participate in the region in any meaningful way since obtaining citizenship. In fact I wasn't even aware he is a citizen until I saw this appointment, and upon checking he has 6 forum posts, 7 Discord messages, zero RMB messages, and is not part of the Executive Staff. Although the Election Commission is not a difficult job, it plays an important role in protecting our democratic institutions, and I don't see it as a suitable role for someone who has had no track record at all in this region, much less someone who has a long track record aiding our enemies.

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I thank you for your concerns. On the activity front, I am generally a very non active member of whatever region I might be in. In Thaecia, which for the majority of my NS career has taken up most of my time, I only had ~200 rmb posts throughout the entirety of last year, and a solid amount of those were for my position as Electoral Commissioner. Same goes for forums. I am not the most active on forums, which I am trying to change, and I do often browse the forums, even if I don't post. I'll take discord. That's on me to be more active, and I will accept that critiscm. I was actually just discussing the executive staff with Ruben when I applied, and as I informed him, I've been shopping around, taking a look at the departments, and where I think I'd best fit in. Currently Integration and WA is where my head is mostly at. I was actually planning on lodging my executive application shortly, even before I saw your post. I will note that even if I am not publicly active, I am a habitual checker of my discord, and will get back to any DM sent ASAP.

Finally, to address the final main concern, which is that of my loyalty to The North Pacific, and whether I should be trusted. The Brotherhood of Malice publicly gave me a dishonourable discharge for daring to liberate one hold that we weren't a part of. I left Raider Unity swiftly after that. It was my loyalty that had been questioned, and I was not willing to let that slide when I'd worked faithfully for them for about a year at that point. I will concede that that is a while. However, it has been about nine months since then, where I have worked exclusively for independent organisation, such as TPoP. I've come to TNP in search of another region to feel at home in. Admittedly, that begins in my activity, which as I discussed earlier, could be improved. However, I hope that this assembly sees fit to reward a knowledged and experienced player in this particular field with their trust, and that I can come to grow truly within the fabric of this region that has stood the test of time over more than a decade.

If I missed anything, or if there are further questions, please ask here, or reach out privately. Thanks.

As I said earlier, I don't think there's really an explanation that could make up for a nonexistent record in the region. I mean, your new post alone is more words than all of your previous activity in TNP combined, that's how little your record was. And honestly, nothing in your post really offered an explanation for lack of activity anyway, and the promises of future activity aren't that promising either if what you can say about it is "I've been shopping around", which - considering you've been a citizen for two months, seems like a lot of time for "shopping around".

I don't think I can support someone who has basically done nothing in this region being appointed to a position of responsibility unless there is some exceptional reason why they are the most qualified candidate over everyone else in the region.

At this point, I think it is fair to acknowledge that some positions in this discussion are simply not going to shift, regardless of what the nominee says or how they respond. That is unfortunate. With that said, I want to restate clearly that I continue to support this nomination and that I have confidence in Ambis’ willingness and ability to serve.

A significant amount of weight has been placed on raw activity metrics such as post counts, as though they are the sole or decisive indicators of commitment. I do not think that is a particularly sound standard on its own. We have seen controversial nominees before who went on to serve the region well (the one who immediately volunteered to run a special election on extremely short notice) despite similar scepticism at the time. Willingness to step up when asked has proven, in practice, to be a far more reliable indicator of service than forum or Discord volume alone.

I wish you good luck! Congratulations on your new office Ambis.

I think we should give them a chance to prove themselves, after all as Ruben said they were the one who stepped up, I think that shows a willingness of them wanting to engage.

Halsoni:

A significant amount of weight has been placed on raw activity metrics such as post counts, as though they are the sole or decisive indicators of commitment. I do not think that is a particularly sound standard on its own. We have seen controversial nominees before who went on to serve the region well (the one who immediately volunteered to run a special election on extremely short notice) despite similar scepticism at the time. Willingness to step up when asked has proven, in practice, to be a far more reliable indicator of service than forum or Discord volume alone.

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I have cited the nominee's post counts because frankly there is nothing else to cite. The nominee has not done anything in this region at all. And bringing up NES as a comparison is not an argument in Ambis' favour, as NES has much higher counts on all these metrics, and a vastly different prior history as well. It's also a bit early to use NES as an example to say he is "serving the region well" when he's in the middle of supervising his first ever election.

I find it ironic you think I am placing undue emphasis on post counts when you literally said that the speed of the nominee responding to your ping is why you consider him to be active, which is a far worse indicator of commitment to the region.

Gorundu:

I find it ironic you think I am placing undue emphasis on post counts

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I find it ironic that a person who resigned in disgrace as Delegate because of inactivity is giving a nominee a hard time because of activity, while proudly boasting in his signature that he's a Former Delegate to give himself additional authority. Or that this same person has only voted once in the last 11 votes in the RA. Or that this same person has barely contributed to the region in the last two months, despite being explicitly reached out to by me. The hypocrisy on display is starting to become quite apparent to everyone in this room. Glass houses, etc.

As this discussion continues, it feels like differences of opinion are becoming more pronounced and the topic may start drifting into less constructive territory. Everyone is, of course, free to express their views, but doing so within the bounds of mutual respect is our shared responsibility. Differences of opinion should not divide us or undermine our common goals.

I want to know more about the activity record with BoM, a region with which we were recently at war.

Halsoni:

I find it ironic that a person who resigned in disgrace as Delegate because of inactivity is giving a nominee a hard time because of activity, while proudly boasting in his signature that he's a Former Delegate to give himself additional authority. Or that this same person has only voted once in the last 11 votes in the RA. Or that this same person has barely contributed to the region in the last two months, despite being explicitly reached out to by me. The hypocrisy on display is starting to become quite apparent to everyone in this room. Glass houses, etc.

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Let the record reflect that you have chosen to launch a full on personal attack on my character in response to my reasonable criticisms on why someone with zero activity in this region was nominated for a position of responsibility, and why you believe that speed in responding to pings is the only criteria you need to determine if someone is active enough for this position. I mean, attacking me for something as inane as my forum signature saying I'm a former Delegate, really? I'm far from the only one to have that in my signature.

If by your standards I have "barely contributed" to the region in the last two months, then how do you view your nominee's activity? I've participated in numerous discussions, I've helped newcomers with questions about citizenship and Discord, and I was even the one who set out the proposal and outline for the recent Advent Calendar event (even though due to a lack of time I didn't really participate in the execution of the event), which as far as I can see was the only major event recently. And I had your personal outreach in my mind when I proposed the event to the Culture ministry, so I hope you're happy that your outreach in fact did something good for the region.

Putting aside the fact that your attack doesn't even hold water, the fact that we are even talking about my activity is a prime example of whataboutism because I'm not the person being nominated here. The hypocrisy is coming entirely from you. If you want to defend your nominee by saying past activity isn't indicative of future, that's fine even if I don't agree with you about this particular nominee. But now you're attacking someone who has been more active than your nominee for any period of time you look at, because I questioned his activity and why you believed this level of activity is suitable for a nominee? I don't know what that is other than hypocrisy.

Meteturan:

As this discussion continues, it feels like differences of opinion are becoming more pronounced and the topic may start drifting into less constructive territory. Everyone is, of course, free to express their views, but doing so within the bounds of mutual respect is our shared responsibility. Differences of opinion should not divide us or undermine our common goals.

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I agree with you. I am beyond disappointed that the Delegate chose to respond to my reasonable criticism with personal attacks and whataboutism. This is beneath him and beneath the office he holds.

Gorundu, I will respond one last time and then leave the matter to the Assembly.

First, on tone. I should have been more considerate of your feelings in how I phrased my earlier reply. Framing the inconsistency in how activity standards are being applied as a personal critique was my bad, and I accept responsibility for that. That said, the point being made was not about you personally. It was about the argument and how the standard is being used.

What is happening now is not continued scrutiny, though. It is continued argument aimed at reaching a specific outcome, namely sinking the nomination. You have effectively said as much by stating that no explanation could compensate for what you view as a nonexistent activity record. That is a legitimate position to hold, but once that position is taken, further debate is no longer about evidence or clarification. It becomes a disagreement over standards.

Those standards have been engaged with in good faith. Ambis has acknowledged his low visible activity in TNP and explained that this is consistent with how he has historically participated, including in regions where he successfully held electoral roles. He has demonstrated familiarity with our legal code, particularly the sections relevant to the Election Commission. He has prior experience performing comparable duties under systems of similar complexity. He has addressed concerns about loyalty with a concrete account of his break from hostile regions and his conduct since. At this point, it is no longer accurate to say there is nothing to assess beyond post counts.

You are entitled to conclude that this is still insufficient. I do not dispute that. What I do dispute is the implication that this nomination is uninformed, reckless, or made without due consideration, when the record of this thread shows otherwise. The Election Commission is a supervised and accountable body, and this appointment is reversible if the nominee fails to meet expectations.

We clearly disagree on where the bar should sit in this case. That disagreement has now been fully aired. The appropriate place to resolve it is through the vote, not by continuing to re-litigate the same objections.

I stand by the nomination.

Given that we've elected coupers to the delegacy and allow Whole India on the discord, I'm not particularly concerned about Ambis's past with BoM.

I would like to ask Ambis about their history in Thaecia, however, and whether they were part of that whole "Xernon WA multies to fix an election" thing. To those wondering the relevancy - Xernon was better known here as the Democratic Republic of Tomb.

I don’t know Ambis, really, outside of having an axe to grind with most of the places he used to frequent. He’s carried water for people and places that gave us trouble in the past, but things do change as TNP in particular is well aware. He seems perfectly reasonable and serious to me. Some of you want more details on some of those places and have asked for them, fair enough. As Ruben touched on, standards will differ and some people’s lines will have been crossed. I will say that personally, I don’t think I could have ever made myself join any of the spaces Ambis used to be in had circumstances been different, so I guess I give some credit there, stepping into what could have easily been a lion’s den. And I did find his response thus far to be impressive.

I just wanted to emphasize this additional point. It’s been very common over the years for the EC to be treated as an entry-level position for aspiring players to get more involved. People who in my memory didn’t say or do much to stand out would apply and we’d give the a shot. People who I personally saw as insubstantial or even silly, who might not be as polished or astute at the work, nevertheless were supported and easily joined the EC. I think Ambis is a cut above a great number of those people and outside of TNP has way more practical experience and ability than they did. Whee I draw my line, I can be more forgiving of the relative lack of visible presence in the region if I know that person can come to life and do good work here. Hopefully this sort of opportunity is what unlocks that potential, and then we can benefit beyond the EC alone.

I will be voting for the nominee. And for what it’s worth, I think Gorundu should keep doing what he’s doing and volunteer for some of these roles again.

Great Bights Mum:

I want to know more about the activity record with BoM, a region with which we were recently at war.

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Gladly. I served in the Brotherhood of Malice for either a year or two (can’t quite remember the timeline) as an assassin. I will gladly admit that. Around ten months ago, I participated in a very large liberation, purely because I thought it was funny. It was a massive operation, Malice wasn’t partaking, so I joined the jump for the hell of it. The next morning I was approached by Valtarre, or Koth, depending on how you know him, the leader of Malice, and was told that my participation in that defence was unacceptable, and was “honourably discharged” from the force. I mentioned above that I don’t enjoy my loyalty being questioned, and I was not about to try to stay involved in places that clearly don’t want me. I walked and joined TPoP. I still stay in the discord server because I haven’t bothered to leave. I don’t particularly care enough to leave. That is the extent of my participation.

St George:

Given that we've elected coupers to the delegacy and allow Whole India on the discord, I'm not particularly concerned about Ambis's past with BoM.

I would like to ask Ambis about their history in Thaecia, however, and whether they were part of that whole "Xernon WA multies to fix an election" thing. To those wondering the relevancy - Xernon was better known here as the Democratic Republic of Tomb.

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That election was about a year and a half before my time iirc. That was June 2020, and I joined December 2021. I was around for his trial, and reached out to him once when I believed thaecia to be on the brink of death to ask for his assistance. This proved to be a poor idea, as he had no real contribution. That was early 2024. I have not communicated with him since.

Thank you both for the questions

Ambis:

That election was about a year and a half before my time iirc. That was June 2020, and I joined December 2021. I was around for his trial, and reached out to him once when I believed thaecia to be on the brink of death to ask for his assistance. This proved to be a poor idea, as he had no real contribution. That was early 2024. I have not communicated with him since.

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Aces, this resolves any concerns I might've had. I will be voting for the nominee.