[Draft] Minor Fix to Mandatory Ministries

Blue Wolf II

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TNP Nation
Blue_Wolf_II
I propose a minor fix to Section 7.5: Mandatory Ministries, 7.5.45 which reads with my proposed changes as follows:

42. For the purposes of this section, the Delegate may serve as one of the Executive Officers charged with any of the preceding duties. The Regional Assembly shall approve the Delegate serving as more than one of the Executive Officers charged with any of the preceding duties by majority vote.

This minor change allows the Regional Assembly to vote any time a Delegate appoints themselves as an EO to one of the Mandatory Ministries rather than only being allowed to vote after the second self-appointment, giving the Regional Assembly greater oversight of an already unusual situation.

Discuss.

Section 7.5: Mandatory Ministries
39. There will be an Executive Officer charged with the North Pacific's foreign affairs. They will ensure the continued operation of any embassies of the North Pacific and will report on events in the region.
40. There will be an Executive Officer charged with military affairs. They will carry out such legal missions as are authorized by the Delegate, expressly or categorically.
41. There will be at least one Executive Officer charged with focusing primarily on matters of internal interest to The North Pacific.
42. For the purposes of this section, the Delegate may serve as one of the Executive Officers charged with any of the preceding duties. The Regional Assembly shall approve the Delegate serving as more than one of the Executive Officers charged with any of the preceding duties by majority vote.
 
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I support the draft as stated. Having a delegate appoint themselves to a mandatory ministry slot goes against the spirit of the law, so having the RA confirm it is practical to get everyone on board while also leaving the flexibility to try this option. It shouldn't be so easy to skirt the law like this.
 
I support the draft as stated. Having a delegate appoint themselves to a mandatory ministry slot goes against the spirit of the law, so having the RA confirm it is practical to get everyone on board while also leaving the flexibility to try this option. It shouldn't be so easy to skirt the law like this.
What spirit? It was amended not too long ago with this exact scenario in mind. Are we forgetting the Hands-On in a Pinch Act?
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having more oversight and accountability, especially when self-appoints had been exceptionally rare in the past but are now being used with increasing frequency.

Self appointments are going from "in a pinch", very rare events to increasingly the standard, and that absolutely wasn't the intent.
 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with having more oversight and accountability, especially when self-appoints had been exceptionally rare in the past.
I don't see why giving the RA the ability to block actions taken by the delegate to comply with the legal code creates more accountability.
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It's clear that the author of this piece of legislation is simply out to "bully the delegate with laws" because it's funny (direct quote from the author, by the way). This is faux outrage that the RA should not tolerate. The Regional Assembly has recently chosen common sense over bad-faith blockading. I hope it does so again.

Sidenote, I think it's funny that the author is all for more legal jargon when it comes to restricting the delegate's authority, but not when it comes to his golden child, AKA the NPA.
 
Attacking the author and not the content isn't conduct becoming of a Delegate. Please stay focused.

In any case, the Delegate rules with the consent of the Regional Assembly. The entire point of the Mandatory Ministries acts in the first place was to 1) establish vital and necessary departments and 2) forces the Delegate to appoint others to run those sections specifically so the Delegate can focus on running the region as a whole. It forces the Delegate to delegate, true to the name.

This bill still allows the Delegate to assume the EO role of one of the Mandatory Ministries, but with the RA's permission.

Remember that in the entirety of TNP history, we've only had a Delegate appoint themselves to one of these positions three times. It's supposed to be an unusual act that should require some unusual oversight by the Regional Assembly so it doesn't become an every term occurrence.

I don't think this is a very controversial change.
 
What spirit? It was amended not too long ago with this exact scenario in mind. Are we forgetting the Hands-On in a Pinch Act?
Well, considering I was not a fan of that "handy" act, this is certainly an improvement. "In a pinch" is a nebulous concept, subject to interpretation. As it lacks codification, the intent will eventually be forgotten and eventually misused.

This change expands RA oversight, and puts a certain amount of pressure on the Delegate to appoint someone else.
 
Against this, it's being done as an attack on the current delegate, in a way that looks increasingly distasteful given the pressures the government and region are currently experiencing.
 
After looking at numerous conversations of this draft, I cannot in good conscience say that this bill is made or ever was made in good faith. This is also directed to personal grievances against members of TNP. I have not heard a good reason for this change either. I may be the new guy on the block but I see when a bill will benefit or negatively effect the region and it’s clearly to subdue and harm the region because of these personal grievances. For these reasons, I will be voting Against.
 
Against. The Delegate is basically the leader of the executive, which has the ability to appoint and remove ministers. Why should the Delegate appoint himself/herself as a minister if the Delegate is already leading it along with the Minister. In this case, Ruben appointed himself as Temporary MoD until a new one is found. I'm fine with that.

I would edit this bill for that if the Delegate appoints himself/herself as a temporary minister, then it should be approved by the Regional Assembly. I feel like we should also put in this bill the banning of the delegate appointing himself/herself as a Minister just to be one
 
Against. The Delegate is basically the leader of the executive, which has the ability to appoint and remove ministers. Why should the Delegate appoint himself/herself as a minister if the Delegate is already leading it along with the Minister. In this case, Ruben appointed himself as Temporary MoD until a new one is found. I'm fine with that.

I would edit this bill for that if the Delegate appoints himself/herself as a temporary minister, then it should be approved by the Regional Assembly. I feel like we should also put in this bill the banning of the delegate appointing himself/herself as a Minister just to be one
Either I'm misreading you, or you might be misreading the bill.

The status quo right now is that the Delegate can appoint themselves as Minister (not just temporarily, but outright) for one mandatory ministry without needing RA approval. The bill wants to change that so that the Delegate must always get RA approval to do that.

There is no distinction between "Temporary Minister" (a position that doesn't exist) and "Minister" (outright). That was just Ruben declaring an intent to replace themselves whenever a good candidate shows up, but there's no legal need to do so.
Since there is no legal distinction between temporary and outright in this case, your proposed edits (which, one of them isn't even an edit because the bill is already doing that,) conflict with each other.
 
Extraordinary moments call for extraordinary measures, and the measure of appointing oneself as a minister while delegate is one such extraordinary moment. Such an extraordinary measure should come with a check, though. Having the RA confirm the Delegate serving as a mandatory minister seems eminently reasonable, if only to have more of the region involved in the goings on of the executive and thus more life and debate within the halls of the Regional Assembly.

I'm also of the mind that there should be pressure to give opportunity to new people, or at least not the usual people, to tackle a new project. I use myself as an example of this - I had no experience being Speaker, but the RA trusted me with the position, and with the help of some fantastic experienced and new deputy speakers I've been able to handle the office of Speaker. Such chances should be taken with our Minister positions.

On a final note, any Delegate that feels they can handle being Delegate and a Minister, and feels they have the popular mandate to do so, should have no worries presenting their case to the RA for a confirmation vote.
 
I'll admit that I am torn on this bill. I think both sides present decent arguments. At this point, I'm swayed a bit more towards against, due to a good point brought up by Vara of "if we have to confirm this controversial choice, why not every controversial choice."

Another potential option would be to institute a confirmation after a period of time - say two weeks. This would ensure that temporary appointments truly are "temporary" as the RA would kick the delegate out of the minister position if not.
 
I’m against this bill. The current law is just fine, and I’m not particularly confident that this piece of legislation was written in the best interest of the region - it seems to want to block any Delegate from serving as a Minister, which in periods such as the current one, is detrimental to the region.
 
If the intent was to block any Delegate from self-appointments, the bill would have said that, and it doesn't.

The intent is for the Regional Assembly to have a simply majority vote confirming the position, just like we currently have should a Delegate ever try to self-appoint themselves to a second Mandatory Ministry position.
 
Obviously I am the author of the bill the RA just passed on this subject, so I am opposed to Wolf's proposal to further restrict this act of the delegate. My arguments are hardly changed from before, and I am not surprised to see the same people who opposed that bill are on board with this one. I do need to address some of the things that have been said, though, because they either do not seem to recognize the reality of the law as it is now, or they have suddenly begun singing a different tune than before, and I want to examine that.

I support the draft as stated. Having a delegate appoint themselves to a mandatory ministry slot goes against the spirit of the law, so having the RA confirm it is practical to get everyone on board while also leaving the flexibility to try this option. It shouldn't be so easy to skirt the law like this.
The law, has been pointed out, was changed. The law contemplates the scenario Wolf is concerned with, a delegate appointing themselves to a single mandatory ministry, and the law as decided by the RA is that a single mandatory ministry appointment is fine without a vote. So what spirit is being violated, other than the old archaic spirit from years ago that we decided to move past when we passed this law barely 3 months ago? How is the law being skirted, when the law literally allows the delegate to do this? You may disagree with the law, you voted against the bill back then, but that does not mean that something nefarious or tricky is being done here. Not even the bill's author thinks that a law is being skirted, he recognizes that this was a legal occurrence.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having more oversight and accountability, especially when self-appoints had been exceptionally rare in the past but are now being used with increasing frequency.

Self appointments are going from "in a pinch", very rare events to increasingly the standard, and that absolutely wasn't the intent.
Your sense of statistics is off. This is the first self-appointment made since we passed the law 3 months ago. It is the third time in the region's history that it's happened. And as I have said many times when arguing about this topic, we live in very different times compared to past years. If it was difficult finding a MoD three months ago to the point the delegate appointed himself, it is hardly a stretch to think that it is still difficult now.

Well, considering I was not a fan of that "handy" act, this is certainly an improvement. "In a pinch" is a nebulous concept, subject to interpretation. As it lacks codification, the intent will eventually be forgotten and eventually misused.

This change expands RA oversight, and puts a certain amount of pressure on the Delegate to appoint someone else.
In a pinch is a nebulous concept. But in a pinch was the fun little name of the bill, not a legal term, and not a proposed limitation on the practice. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the permission is an absolute one. The RA just voted on this and decided a single mandatory ministry could be assumed by the delegate. As that bill's author, I added the stipulation for RA confirmation of more than one mandatory ministry because I recognized the legitimate concern that a more despotically-minded delegate could take advantage of assuming multiple mandatory ministries. If it were truly an in the pinch situation, I reasoned that it would only ever be a single ministry that was assumed, so it would require extraordinary circumstances, and a very good case, to get more than one. That is when the RA needs to step in and carefully evaluate. Everything I did with the prior bill was to make it possible for the delegate to have a release valve and take this unusual and non-preferred action when the circumstances demanded it.

I made changes to that bill based on your feedback even though you ultimately opposed the final version. I am curious why more wasn't said about this provision being insufficient, or allowing us to argue on those grounds? I would have happily had that debate then, because otherwise it certainly seems like there was tacit acceptance of the logic of the RA confirmation process. Yes, you can always add more oversight and more conditional language, but you have to weigh the value of that against the nature of the thing. If we're struggling to find a MoD, and you vote down the delegate's self-appointment of a single ministry, wouldn't we just end up back with the empty suit problem I was concerned with in Wolf's bill to forbid self-appointments? The current law recognizes that the delegate may need to self-appoint in tough times, and such a vote will drag out the period where no mandatory minister is in place and may force the delegate to pick a lackey who isn't suitable for the role to satisfy requirements. And if you want to avoid the empty suit problem you may be inclined to support the delegate's choice, in which case we just spent short of two weeks rubber stamping the decision that, if we're lucky, would not have even lasted that long, if a suitable replacement could be arranged within that time frame.

Extraordinary moments call for extraordinary measures, and the measure of appointing oneself as a minister while delegate is one such extraordinary moment. Such an extraordinary measure should come with a check, though. Having the RA confirm the Delegate serving as a mandatory minister seems eminently reasonable, if only to have more of the region involved in the goings on of the executive and thus more life and debate within the halls of the Regional Assembly.

I'm also of the mind that there should be pressure to give opportunity to new people, or at least not the usual people, to tackle a new project. I use myself as an example of this - I had no experience being Speaker, but the RA trusted me with the position, and with the help of some fantastic experienced and new deputy speakers I've been able to handle the office of Speaker. Such chances should be taken with our Minister positions.

On a final note, any Delegate that feels they can handle being Delegate and a Minister, and feels they have the popular mandate to do so, should have no worries presenting their case to the RA for a confirmation vote.
Did you just come to this conclusion now or have you always felt that way? You supported the bill that made this the current law, and at no point were you concerned with a lack of a check on the delegate's choice.

I am not sure why people keep insisting that this law contradicts our long-standing culture of seeking out new talent or leaving the talent up to the people and taking risks on them. This delegate is in fact in the midst of an open call for a new MoD, a process that takes more than a few days. The self-appointment is intended to ensure the office is filled until that process completes. All of this is public knowledge.

As to your last point, as I said, you're contemplating a rubber stamp scenario, the drawback of which is that it wastes a lot of time, time where we would not be filling our mandatory ministry. I am not so sure I subscribe to the virtue of a performative confirmation vote for the sake of good governance when it actually harms our ability to do what must be done in tough times. I have seen the idea of recall be dismissed, but I do have to remind you that the RA always has a check, on any official in the government, and it is in fact the recall. The concept of pressure has been brought up a lot in this discussion, this can also be applied without confirmation votes or red tape. The RA can pass resolutions or temporary restrictions - for instance, what Ambis threw out below, which I will get to shortly. The RA seems to think the only options available to it are recall or tying the government in knots at the start of whatever they wish to do. Use your imaginations people.

I'll admit that I am torn on this bill. I think both sides present decent arguments. At this point, I'm swayed a bit more towards against, due to a good point brought up by Vara of "if we have to confirm this controversial choice, why not every controversial choice."

Another potential option would be to institute a confirmation after a period of time - say two weeks. This would ensure that temporary appointments truly are "temporary" as the RA would kick the delegate out of the minister position if not.
Regarding this notion of a confirmation after a period of time: this is the sort of thing the RA can do now, without a legal change. If Ruben says this is temporary, the RA can, if it so chooses, pass a resolution declaring that it will expect a name of a new MoD in two weeks, and if it does not get one by that point in time, it will initiate recall of Ruben as MoD, or it can declare it will make that temporary provision a requirement of the existing law. Again, use your imaginations. If you want to put a clock on the delegate, then do it, you have always had that power. Or maybe hold a confirmation vote on his appointment anyway, see where the chips fall, and if the RA is majority against, Ruben has a chance to alter course or, if he insists on it, the RA can use the knowledge it now has about where it stands and take a firmer action that forces Ruben's hand. The RA seems to prefer to just make things extra hard automatically with one-size-fits-all provisions and red tape that cannot be adjusted instead of being more dynamic. That is hardly the delegate's fault, that is on you all.
 
Holy text wall.

Well, for those who are claiming that this is "just more red tape", I'm failing to see how.

There have only ever been three self-appointments in TNP history, so even if this law had somehow magically been in effect since the begining we'd have a total of...three votes. In 14 years. That's one vote every 4.6 years, or slightly less than one vote every US Presidential election cycle. Or one vote every 18 TNP executive election cycles. Roughly.

That doesn't seem like a burdensome requirement for such an exceptionally rare event. Unless the argument has become that Self-appointments should no longer be rare events and should instead be the expected norm going forward?
 
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Holy text wall.

Well, for those who are claiming that this is "just more red tape", I'm failing to see how.

There have only ever been three self-appointments in TNP history, so even if this law had somehow magically been in effect since the begining we'd have a total of...three votes. In 14 years. That's one vote every 4.6 years, or slightly less than one vote every US Presidential election cycle. Or one vote every 18 TNP executive election cycles. Roughly.

That doesn't seem like a burdensome requirement for such an exceptionally rare event. Unless the argument has become that Self-appointments should no longer be rare events and should instead be the expected norm going forward?
Let's remember that what I am criticizing here is adding a delay to an unusual scenario that is taking place because of hard times. That is precisely the wrong time to make something take more time or become more difficult. It has nothing to do with an aggregate sense of time, because we did not have these scenarios years ago. If we did we probably would have examined this issue more closely then. Though I would argue this was more due to a cultural thing than because the need wasn't there - it's easy for me to see where there were slim pickings for ministries back then in some pretty bleak periods of TNP's history. But this is a distraction. We live in the now, and we see the problems we have now, and we are responding to those problems now. We are not relitigating how TNP did things in 2011. You want to create a barrier that adds time to a difficult decision that is time sensitive, one in which people either ultimately decide to back the delegate no big deal, or further tie his hands and force him to make a sub-optimal choice where there will be no practical difference between him assuming the role explicitly or the arbitrary choice you force him to make, except that we wasted two weeks to do it.

You have not seriously engaged with anything I said (big surprise), other than to mock the length of the post. Alternatives were proposed, problems with the conclusions pointed out, the aforementioned pointless time suck I described, and you want to play with how easy and spread out confirmation votes are. I understand how confirmation votes work, I am trying to point out the consequences of introducing them to these scenarios.
 
I'm not convinced that the introduction of F/S has become so detrimental and burdensome upon all departments of our region that we can't push through a quick confirmation vote on self-appointments on the three departments that this proposal applies to. That argument does not feel very well aligned with reality.

Why do you feel that a vote on a single Self-appointment confirmation vote is extraordinarily harmful but a vote on a second Self-appointment is something we can manage just fine?

I find a simple, codified confirmation vote to be much easier than Ghost's hypothetical proposal of an RA declaration to force an appointment, backed by the threat of a recall should it not occur. That seems very divisive and unnecessary to me.
 
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I'm not convinced that the introduction of F/S has become so detrimental and burdensome upon all departments of our region that we can't push through a quick confirmation vote on self-appointments on the three departments that this proposal applies to. That argument does not feel very well aligned with reality.

Why do you feel that a vote on a single Self-appointment confirmation vote is extraordinarily harmful but a vote on a second Self-appointment is something we can manage just fine?

I find a simple, codified confirmation vote to be much easier than Ghost's hypothetical proposal of an RA declaration to force an appointment, backed by the threat of a recall should it not occur. That seems very divisive and unnecessary to me.
If you actually read my post, you’ll find the answer to your question. I don’t know how else to phrase it but it seems pointless to repeat myself multiple times.

I did not blame F/S for this. I’m sure it’s played a role but it’s also been around for almost three years, and we are usually able to make appointments regardless. The culprit is our manpower and activity issue which has been a problem even going back before F/S, it’s just been getting more pronounced.

As for why I’m fine with the vote for more than one mandatory ministry self appointment, I am of the opinion we will never see that happen. And if we do, we have a serious crisis which the delegate will need to bring to the RA. If for some reason such a thing were attempted without that clear crisis evident, it would raise red flags for me and I assume everyone else. I have seen the state of the region lately and the struggle the delegates have had making appointments so I know it’s not crazy that this scenario would come up for a singular ministry. I haven’t seen it get so bad yet that more than one mandatory ministry needs to be assumed by the delegate. Such assumption is also more likely to be a problem when it extends to multiple ministries. Given the circumstances involved there, I think having that RA evaluation is entirely reasonable. I do not equate these two scenarios the way you do.

I was pointing out that the RA has options it never utilizes. I hope that to most people considering this point, it’s obvious how the RA putting a time limit on a self-appointment while that appointment happens and business continues is superficially better at least than grinding business to a halt and stopping there being a MoD while we work things out. It also makes a difference what the situation is, because the RA is capable of being flexible and handling each situation appropriately, according to its needs.

I don’t see how the RA putting limits on this and setting expectations is unnecessary or divisive. Recall is a tool and in the situation I outlined it’s related to a temporary appointment made by the delegate. It is not inherently divisive to use it in this way. The divisiveness comes from how it is done. What is happening here is you are sidestepping my arguments and trying to paint what I’m saying as complex and divisive, when it is not. And your proposal may be simple in construction but it does create issues that I believe need to be fairly considered, and which you insist on trivializing.
 
Yay, more debate in the RA (another time for the same 5 people to argue in circles about the same 5 things).

In all seriousness, this is one of the most pointed and unnecessary pieces of legislation I've ever seen written. Firmly against.
 
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