[Private] [Chambers] TNP v New Chiken

We have three heads looking at this, am I missing any obvious reason why we shouldn’t let this move forward, regardless of how strong the case looks at face value?
 
I am in class for the next couple hours and havent had time to look at it, a quick glance the only thing i dont think is clear is the link between the two accounts but i may have missed it . That could be resolved at trial. I dont see any reason not to accept the case. I can moderate if needed.
 
I’m happy with you moderating the case. And I have confirmed Vivanco will be available to serve as SHO. If Elu is on board I can make it official?
 
Dreadton
added
Tlomz
to the group.
— 03/22/2024 7:01 AM

Dreadton — 03/22/2024 7:02 AM
Group is up, I dont have new chickens discord if someone wants to invite him here

Hamsterborg — 03/22/2024 7:51 AM
They don’t have discord as far as I am aware, but I’ll double check with them. https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9145375/61#post-10634190
The North Pacific
Military Sign Up! (+ basic information)
Nation in TNP Mixton Current World Assembly nation mixton Which branch (the Special Forces or Auxiliary) do you wish to join: Auxiliary both Are you interested in recruiting for the NPA?: no Other NationStates military or non-military organizations you are involved in, if any: None

By my...

Dreadton
changed the channel name:
TNP v New Ciken
— 03/22/2024 7:58 AM

Dreadton — 03/22/2024 7:59 AM
Ok @Tlomz how long do you think it will take to present your evidence and depositions if any
March 25, 2024

Hamsterborg — Today at 8:37 PM
I apologise for the short notice before the period ends. https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9198153/#post-10676839 (edited)
The North Pacific
The North Pacific Vs New Chiken
An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts:

1 count of Treason
1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason
1 count of Gross Misconduct

The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below.

[/SPOILER]

The order preserving evidence remains in effect.


Dreadton — Today at 8:41 PM
@Tlomz any objections?

Tlomz — Today at 8:41 PM
nope
[8:41 PM]
we are closing in on terms of a deal

Dreadton — Today at 8:41 PM
how much time are yall asking for?

Tlomz — Today at 8:41 PM
2 days?

Dreadton — Today at 8:42 PM
i am willing to do 3 days

Hamsterborg — Today at 8:42 PM
No objections to either

Tlomz — Today at 8:42 PM
Im sure we can get a draft together within the next 3 days

Hamsterborg — Today at 8:42 PM
3 days then

Dreadton — Today at 8:43 PM
ok Tlomz can you post that you have no objections to an extention and i will issue the order for three days

Tlomz — Today at 8:43 PM
done
 
I think two months is too light. I would compare this to TNP v Bobberino https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9190915/ . He got 5 months and that was an internal post. Here the defendant was in the NPA, on an active operation against a region that is a front for a region we are at war with, and openly states he is willing to provide support for the offending region. 9 months would be to election cycles, and thats where i am currently at.
 
I am fine with two months, but am open to finding a compromise. Nine months strikes me as far too long. We're at war with the Brotherhood of Malice, not Warzone Trinidad, after all. And even in their statement of support for Texico et al they disclaim that there are lines they would not cross (including... actually endorsing Texico with their WA...)

I say we be as forgiving as we can be of someone who is either young or effectively young.
 
I'd, perhaps obviously, prefer 4 months to 5, but 5 is an acceptable compromise and I could sign on to a cogent sentence with that. I should underline that Bobberino's internal post was a (presumably joking) to ban any soldier who didn't vote for him (presumably from the army). Taken seriously I think that's worse than expressing sympathy for a region the NPA has recently invaded for associating with an enemy region.
 
Last edited:
I think what he did was way worst then Bob. He posted support for a region allied with a group we are at war with while on a NPA Deployment. The fact he was not going to "endorse" and move there is even worst. It opens the door to him leaking operational plans from the NPA to this region and BOM. This was all done in public for all to see. It was done with intent on the world stage. Bob made a off hand joke in a private area of the NPA server. While Bobs case is the base line, the aggravating factors make this case alot worst. 2 months is a overtly forgiving. 9 months is appropriate.

I could settle for 7 months.
 
Okay…seems like the true median/compromise point has now become 6 months. Can we all agree on that?

EDIT: Just want to throw this into the mix. A sentence that is dramatically higher than what prosecutors negotiated could impact future attempts at plea deals. If that’s something any of us are concerned with.
 
I will do 5 months so we can close this case. As to the plea, if it does it does. Two months was really light and the RA can always legislate how pleas work in the future
 
court_seal.png


Sentencing Order of the Court of the North Pacific
Opinion drafted by @Dreadtonr, joined by @Eluvatar & @Pallaith ​

The Court took into consideration the relevant clauses of the Legal Code:
Chapter 1 Criminal Code
Section 1.13: Gross Misconduct
27. "Gross Misconduct" is defined as the violation of an individual's legally mandated sworn oath, either willfully or through negligence.

Chapter 2 Penal Code
10. Gross Misconduct will be punished by removal from office and the suspension of voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.


The Court took into consideration the sentencing recommendation by the Prosecution:

The Court took into consideration the sentencing recommendation by the Defense:

The Court Finds As Follows:

Statement of Facts
The Defendant New Chiken was, at the time of the offense, a legal citizen of the North Pacific and a sworn member of the North Pacific Army. As part of the North Pacific Army, the Defendant participated in an Operation against the region, Warzone Trinidad. Warzone Trinidad is a region allied with the Brotherhood of Malice. The Brotherhood of Malice being a region in which the North Pacific has legally declared that a State of War exists with.

The Defendant, under an alias Texico Supporter, posted on the Warzone Trinidad regional message board his support for the Texico, the deposed leader of the region, and that he was opposed to the North Pacific Action. The record does not reflect his opposition to the operation before he participated in the operation. Nor does the record reflect that he voiced his opposition to the North Pacific Army Command. The evidence submitted to the court does show that the Defendant went beyond posting on the Warzone Trinidad message board, he joined the regional discord to learn what support he could offer outside him providing an endorsement to Texico.

The Defendant was removed from the North Pacific Army for misconduct and acting in violation of their NPA Oath.

The Defendant has accepted a guilty plea to one count of Gross Misconduct. He does not dispute the facts and agrees that the evidence presented to the court is properly before it and factual.

Case Comparison

The Prosecution states that the case is unique in its scope and has no recent comparable.

The Defense presents the case TNP v Northern Ardenyan as the most relevant due to it sharing many similar mitigating factors.

The Court has determined the case TNP v Bobberino to be the closest in scope and relevance to the matter before it. TNP v Bobberino was a case in which Bobberino, in his capacity as an Officer in the North Pacific Army and a candidate for the Delegacy, misused his position to post a message requiring the NPA to vote for him or face removal.

The Court has determined that it is relevant because both cases revolve around a member of the North Pacific Army misusing their position and violating their oath as NPA Soldiers and Citizens of the North Pacific. The cases differ as Bobberino’s actions were done in an controlled environment not viewable to the general public (at the time) and were not a serious attempt to corrupt the election of a Delegate. Whereas the Defendant openly posted opposition to the North Pacific’s action in conducting a military operation against an enemy region during a time of war. There is nothing in the record that reflects anything but a genuine attempt to work against the North Pacific Army while he was enlisted.

Mitigating and Aggravating Factors

Mitigating Factors

Both parties present the Defendants remorse and acceptance of his crime.
Both parties present the Defendants apology.
Both parties present the Defendants lack of criminal history.
The Defense presents the Defendants inexperience in the region.

Aggravating Factors.
The Prosecution presents deliberant in their actions and their support of an adversarial government.
The Prosecution argues that ignorance of the law, NPA regulations, and commitments of your oaths does not excuse their violation of their legal obligations.

Sentencing of the Court

Both parties present a joint recommendation of two (2) months, loss of voting rights.

The Majority court finds that the circumstances and facts of the case do not support such a lite sentence. The Defendant was a voluntary member of the North Pacific Army, participating in a war time operation against an adversarial government. The Defendant actively sought to help the adversarial government, against the region he had pledged to support.

As such the Unanimous Court has determined that a sentence of five (5) months, loss of voting rights to be appropriate.
 
Last edited:
My tweaks: (I may come back and suggest more later, probably not. Further tweaks welcome!)

court_seal.png


Sentencing Order of the Court of the North Pacific
Opinion drafted by @Dreadtonr, joined by @Eluvatar & @Pallaith ​

The Court took into consideration the relevant clauses of the Legal Code:
Gulliver:
Chapter 1 Criminal Code
Section 1.13: Gross Misconduct
27. "Gross Misconduct" is defined as the violation of an individual's legally mandated sworn oath, either willfully or through negligence.
Click to expand...

Gulliver:
Chapter 2 Penal Code
10. Gross Misconduct will be punished by removal from office and the suspension of voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.
Click to expand...

The Court took into consideration the sentencing recommendation by the Prosecution:

SPOILER GOES HERE

The Court took into consideration the sentencing recommendation by the Defense:

SPOILER GOES HERE

The Court Finds As Follows:

Statement of Facts
The Defendant New Chiken was, at the time of the offense, a citizen of the North Pacific and a sworn member of the North Pacific Army. As part of the North Pacific Army, the Defendant participated in an Operation against the region, Warzone Trinidad. Warzone Trinidad is a region allied with the Brotherhood of Malice. The Brotherhood of Malice being a region in which The North Pacific is in a legal State of War with.

The Defendant, under an alias Texico Supporter, posted on the Warzone Trinidad regional message board his support for Texico, the deposed leader of the region, and that he was opposed to The North Pacific's military action against Texico. The record does not reflect his opposition to the operation before he participated in the operation. Nor does the record reflect that he voiced his opposition to the North Pacific Army Command. The evidence submitted to the court does show that the Defendant went beyond posting on the Warzone Trinidad message board, he expressed interest in joining the regional discord to learn what support he could offer outside him providing an endorsement to Texico, which the Defendant stated they would not do, implicitly because their WA was committed to WADP participation in The North Pacific.

The Defendant was removed from the North Pacific Army for misconduct and acting in violation of their NPA Oath.

The Defendant has accepted a guilty plea to one count of Gross Misconduct. He does not dispute the facts and agrees that the evidence presented to the court is properly before it and factual.

Case Comparison

The Prosecution states that the case is unique in its scope and has no recent comparable.

The Defense presents the case TNP v Northern Ardenyan as the most relevant due to it sharing many similar mitigating factors.

The Court has determined the case TNP v Bobberino to be the closest in scope and relevance to the matter before it. TNP v Bobberino was a case in which Bobberino, in his capacity as an Officer in the North Pacific Army and a candidate for the Delegacy, misused his position to post a message requiring the NPA to vote for him or face removal.

The Court has determined that it is relevant because both cases revolve around a member of the North Pacific Army misusing their position and violating their oath as NPA Soldiers and Citizens of the North Pacific. The cases differ as Bobberino’s actions were done in an controlled environment not viewable to the general public (at the time) and were not a serious attempt to corrupt the election of a Delegate, which would be a significantly more serious offense. Whereas the Defendant openly posted opposition to the North Pacific’s action in conducting a military operation against an enemy region during a time of war.

Mitigating and Aggravating Factors

Mitigating Factors

Both parties present the Defendants remorse and acceptance of his crime.
Both parties present the Defendants apology.
Both parties present the Defendants lack of criminal history.
The Defense presents the Defendants inexperience in the region.

Aggravating Factors.
The Prosecution presents deliberate action and their support of an adversarial government.
The Prosecution argues that ignorance of the law, NPA regulations, and commitments of one's oaths does not excuse their violation of their legal obligations.

Sentencing of the Court

Both parties present a joint recommendation of two (2) months, loss of voting rights.

The Majority court finds that the circumstances and facts of the case do not support such a light sentence. The Defendant was a voluntary member of the North Pacific Army, participating in a war time operation against an adversarial government. The Defendant actively sought to help the adversarial government, against the region he had pledged to support.

As such the Court has determined that a sentence of five (5) months, loss of voting rights to be appropriate.
 
The Defendant’s inexperience, is the only correction I would make. I’m fine with how it reads otherwise.
 
Majority should be switched to unanimous court, If Elu agrees to those two changes to his post then we can get this out and closed the case @Eluvatar
 
I have a very mild preference for "the court" over "the unanimous court" but that's ok.

No objection whatever to adding that apostrophe.

Please go ahead and post the ruling, with whatever version of "the court" or "the unanimous court" you two prefer.
 
Dreadton
added
Tlomz
to the group.
— 03/22/2024 7:01 AM

Dreadton — 03/22/2024 7:02 AM
Group is up, I dont have new chickens discord if someone wants to invite him here

Hamsterborg — 03/22/2024 7:51 AM
They don’t have discord as far as I am aware, but I’ll double check with them. https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9145375/61#post-10634190
The North Pacific
Military Sign Up! (+ basic information)
Nation in TNP Mixton Current World Assembly nation mixton Which branch (the Special Forces or Auxiliary) do you wish to join: Auxiliary both Are you interested in recruiting for the NPA?: no Other NationStates military or non-military organizations you are involved in, if any: None

By my...

Dreadton
changed the channel name:
TNP v New Ciken
— 03/22/2024 7:58 AM

Dreadton — 03/22/2024 7:59 AM
Ok @Tlomz how long do you think it will take to present your evidence and depositions if any
March 25, 2024

Hamsterborg — 03/25/2024 8:37 PM
I apologise for the short notice before the period ends. https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9198153/#post-10676839 (edited)
The North Pacific
The North Pacific Vs New Chiken
An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts:

1 count of Treason
1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason
1 count of Gross Misconduct

The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below.
Click to expand...
The order preserving evidence remains in effect.


Dreadton — 03/25/2024 8:41 PM
@Tlomz any objections?

Tlomz — 03/25/2024 8:41 PM
nope
[8:41 PM]
we are closing in on terms of a deal

Dreadton — 03/25/2024 8:41 PM
how much time are yall asking for?

Tlomz — 03/25/2024 8:41 PM
2 days?

Dreadton — 03/25/2024 8:42 PM
i am willing to do 3 days

Hamsterborg — 03/25/2024 8:42 PM
No objections to either

Tlomz — 03/25/2024 8:42 PM
Im sure we can get a draft together within the next 3 days

Hamsterborg — 03/25/2024 8:42 PM
3 days then

Dreadton — 03/25/2024 8:43 PM
ok Tlomz can you post that you have no objections to an extention and i will issue the order for three days

Tlomz — 03/25/2024 8:43 PM
done

Dreadton — 03/25/2024 8:46 PM
ok i granted three days but then we will need to move the case forward, even if a plea deal is still being discussed

Tlomz — 03/25/2024 8:46 PM
sounds good

Hamsterborg — 03/25/2024 8:46 PM
Agreed.
March 28, 2024

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 8:08 AM
deadline is today

Tlomz — 03/28/2024 3:56 PM
That deadline is midnight right?
[3:56 PM]
Bc I will be drafting into the evening hahaha

Tlomz — 03/28/2024 7:44 PM
posted
[7:47 PM]
the defense will be posting shortly btw

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 7:48 PM
Ok, What i would like is the defense to post their agreement to the statement and the Defendant to post that they wish to plea guilty. I will then do an allucation with the defendant before scheduling the next step
[7:49 PM]
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9195304/#post-10468145 an example of my allucation
The North Pacific
The North Pacific v. Nubt II of Mortipal
Court is now in session and will be hearing the case The North Pacific v. Nubt II of Mortipal.

The Indictment


Indictment

I bring forward the following charge(s) holding that all the below is true and honest to the best of my belief.

Name of Complainant: Vivanco

Name(s) of Accused: Nubt II...

[7:51 PM]
It just to establish that the defedant is aware of everything and checks all the procedural boxes

1

Hamsterborg — 03/28/2024 7:52 PM
The defendant has been informed of this, but there may be some time until they log onto the forums and since they only log onto the forums roughly once per day I just want to make the court aware that this may take a little time

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 7:53 PM
Fair, we have a plea on the table so i can keep the clock going
[7:54 PM]
i can post the allucation here tonight for you two to review and any objections or what not, once yall agree then i will post on the docket and you can review with the defendant

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 8:03 PM
"@new chiken

You understand that you are pleading guilty to 1 count of Section if the Criminal Code, Gross Misconduct. Gross Misconduct being defined as the violation of an individual's legally mandated sword oath, either willfully or through negligence. A conviction of Gross misconduct under Penal code 2.10 results in the removal of office if any, and the suspension of voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

Knowing that, you confirm the following:

By pleading guilty you are agreeing to the facts as stated by the Prosecution in the plea agreement,
By pleading guilty, you are stating that the evidence presented in the indictment, and modified by the Prosecutions submission, is true, factual, and properly before the court,
By pleading guilty, you are stating you had the opportunity to seek legal counsel and confer with them,
By Pleading guilty, you are waving trial, waving the chance to challenge witnesses and evidence, and other rights entitled to you as part of a criminal trial.
You understand the court is not restricted by the plea agreement and it serves as an advisory recomendation,

You confirm that you understand this and wish to plead guilty?"

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 8:38 PM
give me your thoughts on this

Tlomz — 03/28/2024 8:38 PM
No issue from me.
[8:38 PM]
Is that list boiler plate? or did you just come up with it

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 8:40 PM
im pretty much the only one i know who does it
[8:40 PM]
well like that

Tlomz — 03/28/2024 8:40 PM
I noticed when I was reviewing other cases
[8:40 PM]
I have no issue with it as a concept

Hamsterborg — 03/28/2024 9:00 PM
No objections
[9:00 PM]
That will be fine

Dreadton — 03/28/2024 9:02 PM
Ok so heres the time table, He needs to confirm he is onbaord with the plea as presented, I will post the alluication, then he will post his response, then i will schedule the next phase. I do know that its a holiday weekend for most people so time will be a bit loose, but i would like his confirmation by saturday if possible

1
March 29, 2024

Hamsterborg — 03/29/2024 4:59 PM
New Chiken has agreed to the plea

Dreadton — 03/29/2024 5:28 PM
Ok how much time are we looking for to post mitigating and aggravating factors??

Tlomz — 03/29/2024 6:35 PM
I can have it out tonight or tomorrow, less than 24 hours, so I'll default to Skara

Hamsterborg — 03/29/2024 7:05 PM
Since it’s past midnight in Europe I’d rather submit it tomorrow
March 30, 2024

Hamsterborg — 03/30/2024 7:42 PM
I only have some editing and wording to do so I’ll basically be ready to publish it whenever. Since I am quite busy tomorrow, I’d expect around 24h from now is reasonably when I would publish it if we will have moved on to that phase.
April 1, 2024

Dreadton — 04/01/2024 8:52 AM
forum.thenorthpacific.org

The North Pacific Vs New Chiken

An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts: 1 count of Treason 1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason 1 count of Gross Misconduct The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below. [/SPOILER] The order preserving evidence remains in effect.
forum.thenorthpacific.org forum.thenorthpacific.org
The North Pacific
The North Pacific Vs New Chiken
An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts:

1 count of Treason
1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason
1 count of Gross Misconduct

The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below.

[/SPOILER]

The order preserving evidence remains in effect.

[8:52 AM]
Plea has been accepted

Tlomz — 04/01/2024 8:53 AM
Cool
[8:53 AM]
I'll post factors when I get home later
April 2, 2024

Dreadton — 04/02/2024 8:40 AM
Can i get your submissions so this can go into deliberations

Hamsterborg — 04/02/2024 3:53 PM
Will be posted asap
[3:53 PM]
Hopefully within an hour

Tlomz — 04/02/2024 4:28 PM
Will later
[4:28 PM]
Not home yet

Hamsterborg — 04/02/2024 5:46 PM
Posted

Tlomz — 04/02/2024 10:10 PM
posted
[10:10 PM]
have at it Dreadton
April 10, 2024

Dreadton — 04/10/2024 4:35 PM
this is still being discussed

Tlomz — 04/10/2024 4:42 PM
This as in the deliberations?

Dreadton — 04/10/2024 4:43 PM
yes

1

Tlomz — 04/10/2024 4:43 PM
Cool, no rush
April 16, 2024

Dreadton — 04/16/2024 6:42 PM
we have an agreement in principle but with Elu dealing with a crisis it will be a min before the order is finalized
April 20, 2024

Dreadton — Today at 11:44 AM
forum.thenorthpacific.org

The North Pacific Vs New Chiken

An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts: 1 count of Treason 1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason 1 count of Gross Misconduct The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below. [/SPOILER] The order preserving evidence remains in effect.
forum.thenorthpacific.org forum.thenorthpacific.org
The North Pacific
The North Pacific Vs New Chiken
An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts:

1 count of Treason
1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason
1 count of Gross Misconduct

The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below.

[/SPOILER]

The order preserving evidence remains in effect.


Hamsterborg — Today at 5:26 PM
I am going to ask for some clarification. If I understand the Bobberino vs TNP case correctly they were found guilty of breaking their oath as TNP minister and not their NPA oath. So it’s not in their capacity as a Npaer but as a government official they were found guilty. I don’t see the relevance.

Dreadton — Today at 5:48 PM
Bob's case is the closest in facts and circumstances, there will never be a one on one match

Dreadton — Today at 6:00 PM
@Tlomz you got any records that need to be transfered to the court ?

Tlomz — Today at 6:01 PM
Im not sure what you mean

Dreadton — Today at 6:02 PM
3.4.26 says all record associated with that prosecution will be transfered to the court. "25. For the purposes of this section, "managing the prosecution of a case" includes but is not limited to:

acting as the prosecutor for the duration of all stages of the criminal trial heard for the case;
and representing the prosecution in any separate judicial review hearings arising from the criminal trial.

When the management of the prosecution of a case is completed, all records associated with that prosecution will be transferred to the Court."
[6:03 PM]
So before i closed the chambers thread i thought to ask

Tlomz — Today at 6:03 PM
Unless that includes discussion of the plea deal with hamster, then no
[6:03 PM]
Thats the first time ive ever been asked actually
[6:03 PM]
but I appreciate it

Hamsterborg — Today at 6:05 PM
It is of the defence’s opinion that the differences heavily outnumber the similarities of the cases and should not be judged as similarily as they have been. The defence will be looking into the possibilities of an appeal. The court’s decision comes as a big surprise for both the defence and prosecutor.

@Tlomz
Unless that includes discussion of the plea deal with hamster, then no

Dreadton — Today at 6:05 PM
that would likey be r4r or Ra territory

Tlomz — Today at 6:07 PM
Im gonna say it isnt for now at least
[6:08 PM]
because it was ultimately just background drafting of the official bit which is in court posession

Dreadton — Today at 6:09 PM
Ok then I will close the chambers
Click to expand...
[/SPOILER]
 
forum.thenorthpacific.org

The North Pacific Vs New Chiken

An indictment of @New Chiken has been accepted on the following Counts: 1 count of Treason 1 count of Conspiracy to Commit Treason 1 count of Gross Misconduct The Indictment can be read here Or in the Spoiler below. [/SPOILER] The order preserving evidence remains in effect.
forum.thenorthpacific.org forum.thenorthpacific.org

Case is closed
 
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