[Passed] Self-Checkout Act

Pallaith

TNPer
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For about a year now we have been making a serious effort to update our citizenship process and make it more fair and more open to the people seeking to become a bigger part of our community. It has been clear for a while that our admin team has not been able to accommodate a growing desire for more permissive admin checks that take into account the advances in technology and the increasing large number of players whose internet connections are not what might be considered "traditional" as in years past. Methods have to change to adapt to new circumstances, but our admin team's methods have not. We have talked this issue to death already, and it is clear our admin team cannot alter their procedures in a way that is clearly required by the times we live in.

At the same time, many of us, including myself and the Delegate, do not wish for the admin team to be completely out of the process. There are very real security concerns with having too permissive a citizenship process. They have insight the rest of us do not, and so for something like 10 months or so now we have created an opening, an appeals process for those failed by the admin team to get reconsideration, and allow the RA to decide if they are "worth the risk" to let in. This process has always been clear to exclude clear examples of players with multiple accounts or, of course, those evading a judicial penalty. These scenarios must continue to be excluded. But seeing so many iterations of the appeal vote, it is clear that the RA is generous and permissive, and if someone is serious about becoming a citizen and is genuine and responsive, they are welcomed in. It still requires an appeal prompted by the applicant, and so many do not take advantage of this.

I am proud to advance the latest effort to refine our citizenship process, and thankful that he Delegate has seen fit to make this one of his priorities. Below is the proposed draft.

Self-Checkout Act:
1. Chapter 6 of the Legal Code is amended as follows:

Section 6.1 Citizenship Applications:
2. Any resident may apply for citizenship using their regional forum account, by providing the name of their nation in The North Pacific, and swearing an oath as follows:

I pledge loyalty to The North Pacific, obedience to her laws, and responsible action as a member of her society. I pledge to only register one nation to vote in The North Pacific. I pledge that no nation under my control will wage war against the North Pacific. I understand that if I break this oath I may permanently lose my voting privileges. In this manner, I petition the Speaker for citizenship in The North Pacific.

3. A copy of the laws applicants are pledging to obey must be available to them at all times.
4. An application for citizenship ceases to be valid if at any time the applicant's declared nation in The North Pacific is not located in The North Pacific.
5. Forum administration will have 7 days to evaluate the citizenship applicant and verify that they are not using a proxy or evading a judicially-imposed penalty. The Vice Delegate will have 7 days to perform a security evaluation and pass or fail the applicant. The Vice Delegate must consult the Security Council if there is reasonable concern as to whether an applicant should be admitted.
6. The Vice Delegate will automatically fail any applicant who identifies as fascist or has engaged in the promotion of fascism.
7. The Vice Delegate will re-evaluate any applicant who failed an evaluation by forum administration if the applicant already passed an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, and the applicant's resident nation is in the World Assembly.
8. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, or are confirmed by forum administration to be using more than one forum account or using a proxy.
9. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by forum administration and would not be subject to re-evaluation by the Vice Delegate.
10. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, the Regional Assembly shall immediately debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. The vote must begin two days after the rejection occurs.
11. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote.
12. The Speaker will accept all other applicants with valid applications.
13. The Speaker will process applications within 7 days. If an applicant has not been approved or rejected within that time, they will be automatically granted citizenship.
Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship:
14. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.
15. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, whose registered nations in The North Pacific leave or cease to exist, or whose citizenship is voluntarily renounced by notifying the Speaker.
16. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board of The North Pacific with their registered nations.
17. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose registered nations in The North Pacific are not in the World Assembly, except as part of an operation with the North Pacific Army, if their citizenship was granted after failing an evaluation by forum administration. This requirement will not apply if the citizens request and then pass another evaluation by forum administration.
18. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens to whom they granted citizenship in error, if the error is discovered within 7 days of granting their citizenship.
19. The Speaker may request an evaluation by forum administration on any existing citizen at any time, and forum administration may evaluate any existing citizen at any time and inform the Speaker of its findings.
20. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty.
21. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are banned by forum administration.

Self-Checkout Act:
1. Chapter 6 of the Legal Code is amended as follows:

Section 6.1 Citizenship Applications:
2. Any resident may apply for citizenship using their regional forum account, by providing the name of their nation in The North Pacific, and swearing an oath as follows:

I pledge loyalty to The North Pacific, obedience to her laws, and responsible action as a member of her society. I pledge to only register one nation to vote in The North Pacific. I pledge that no nation under my control will wage war against the North Pacific. I understand that if I break this oath I may permanently lose my voting privileges. In this manner, I petition the Speaker for citizenship in The North Pacific.

3. A copy of the laws applicants are pledging to obey must be available to them at all times.
4. An application for citizenship ceases to be valid if at any time the applicant's declared nation in The North Pacific is not located in The North Pacific.
5. Forum administration will have 7 days to evaluate the citizenship applicant and verify that they are not using a proxy or evading a judicially-imposed penalty. The Vice Delegate will have 7 days to perform a security evaluation and pass or fail the applicant. The Vice Delegate must consult the Security Council if there is reasonable concern as to whether an applicant should be admitted.
6. The Vice Delegate will automatically fail any applicant who identifies as fascist or has engaged in the promotion of fascism.
7. The Vice Delegate will re-evaluate any applicant who failed an evaluation by forum administration if the applicant already passed an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, and the applicant's resident nation is in the World Assembly.
78. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by either forum administration or the Vice Delegate, or are confirmed by forum administration to be using more than one forum account or using a proxy.
9. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by forum administration and would not be subject to re-evaluation by the Vice Delegate.
810. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, the Regional Assembly shall immediately debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. The vote must begin two days after the rejection occurs.
911. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote.
10. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by forum administration, the applicant may appeal the rejection to the Speaker.
11. In order to appeal the rejection, the applicant must do so within one week of the rejection, must not have been confirmed by administration to have been linked to another forum account or using a proxy, must have a resident nation that is a member of the World Assembly, and must not have already had their rejection upheld by the Regional Assembly.
12. The Speaker will formally grant the applicant’s appeal if the above criteria are met.
13. If the appeal is granted, the Regional Assembly shall debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. If during the debate it is determined that the applicant does not meet the criteria for an appeal, the debate will be suspended and the appeal will be denied.
14. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote, unless forum administration has passed the applicant in a subsequent citizenship application, in which case the previous decision to uphold the rejection is automatically overturned.

1512. The Speaker will accept all other applicants with valid applications.
1613. The Speaker will process applications within 7 days. If an applicant has not been approved or rejected within that time, they will be automatically granted citizenship.
Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship:
1714. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.
1815. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leave or ceases to exist, or whose citizenship is voluntarily renounced by notifying the Speaker.
1916. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board of The North Pacific with their registered nations.
2017. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose registered nations in The North Pacific are not in the World Assembly, except as part of an operation with the North Pacific Army, if their citizenship was granted by the Regional Assembly after failing an evaluation by forum administration. This requirement will not apply if the citizens request and then pass another evaluation by forum administration.
2118. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens to whom they granted citizenship in error, if the error is discovered within 7 days of granting their citizenship.
19. The Speaker may request an evaluation by forum administration on any existing citizen at any time, and forum administration may evaluate any existing citizen at any time and inform the Speaker of its findings.
20. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty.
21. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are banned by forum administration.

Self-Checkout Act:
1. Chapter 6 of the Legal Code is amended as follows:

Section 6.1 Citizenship Applications:
2. Any resident may apply for citizenship using their regional forum account, by providing the name of their nation in The North Pacific, and swearing an oath as follows:

I pledge loyalty to The North Pacific, obedience to her laws, and responsible action as a member of her society. I pledge to only register one nation to vote in The North Pacific. I pledge that no nation under my control will wage war against the North Pacific. I understand that if I break this oath I may permanently lose my voting privileges. In this manner, I petition the Speaker for citizenship in The North Pacific.

3. A copy of the laws applicants are pledging to obey must be available to them at all times.
4. An application for citizenship ceases to be valid if at any time the applicant's declared nation in The North Pacific is not located in The North Pacific.
5. Forum administration will have 7 days to evaluate the citizenship applicant and verify that they are not using a proxy or evading a judicially-imposed penalty. The Vice Delegate will have 7 days to perform a security evaluation and pass or fail the applicant. The Vice Delegate must consult the Security Council if there is reasonable concern as to whether an applicant should be admitted.
6. The Vice Delegate will automatically fail any applicant who identifies as fascist or has engaged in the promotion of fascism.
7. The Vice Delegate will re-evaluate any applicant who failed an evaluation by forum administration if the applicant already passed an evaluation by the Vice Delegate.
78. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by either forum administration or the Vice Delegate, or are confirmed by forum administration to be using more than one forum account or using a proxy.
9. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by forum administration but pass an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, if the applicant's resident nation is not in the World Assembly.
810. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, the Regional Assembly shall immediately debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. The vote must begin two days after the rejection occurs.
911. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote.
10. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by forum administration, the applicant may appeal the rejection to the Speaker.
11. In order to appeal the rejection, the applicant must do so within one week of the rejection, must not have been confirmed by administration to have been linked to another forum account or using a proxy, must have a resident nation that is a member of the World Assembly, and must not have already had their rejection upheld by the Regional Assembly.
12. The Speaker will formally grant the applicant’s appeal if the above criteria are met.
13. If the appeal is granted, the Regional Assembly shall debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. If during the debate it is determined that the applicant does not meet the criteria for an appeal, the debate will be suspended and the appeal will be denied.
14. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote, unless forum administration has passed the applicant in a subsequent citizenship application, in which case the previous decision to uphold the rejection is automatically overturned.

1512. The Speaker will accept all other applicants with valid applications.
1613. The Speaker will process applications within 7 days. If an applicant has not been approved or rejected within that time, they will be automatically granted citizenship.
Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship:
1714. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.
1815. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leave or ceases to exist, or whose citizenship is voluntarily renounced by notifying the Speaker.
1916. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board of The North Pacific with their registered nations.
2017. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose registered nations in The North Pacific are not in the World Assembly, except as part of an operation with the North Pacific Army, if their citizenship was granted by the Regional Assembly after failing an evaluation by forum administration. This requirement will not apply if the citizens request and then pass another evaluation by forum administration.
2118. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens to whom they granted citizenship in error, if the error is discovered within 7 days of granting their citizenship.
19. The Speaker may request an evaluation by forum administration on any existing citizen at any time, and forum administration may evaluate any existing citizen at any time and inform the Speaker of its findings.
20. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty.
21. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are banned by forum administration.

Self-Checkout Act:
1. Chapter 6 of the Legal Code is amended as follows:

Section 6.1 Citizenship Applications:
2. Any resident may apply for citizenship using their regional forum account, by providing the name of their nation in The North Pacific, and swearing an oath as follows:

I pledge loyalty to The North Pacific, obedience to her laws, and responsible action as a member of her society. I pledge to only register one nation to vote in The North Pacific. I pledge that no nation under my control will wage war against the North Pacific. I understand that if I break this oath I may permanently lose my voting privileges. In this manner, I petition the Speaker for citizenship in The North Pacific.

3. A copy of the laws applicants are pledging to obey must be available to them at all times.
4. An application for citizenship ceases to be valid if at any time the applicant's declared nation in The North Pacific is not located in The North Pacific.
5. Forum administration will have 7 days to evaluate the citizenship applicant and verify that they are not using a proxy or evading a judicially-imposed penalty. The Vice Delegate will have 7 days to perform a security evaluation and pass or fail the applicant. The Vice Delegate must consult the Security Council if there is reasonable concern as to whether an applicant should be admitted.
6. The Vice Delegate will automatically fail any applicant who identifies as fascist or has engaged in the promotion of fascism.
7. The Speaker will reject applicants who fail an evaluation by either forum administration or the Vice Delegate, or are confirmed by forum administration to be using more than one forum account or using a proxy.
8. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by the Vice Delegate, the Regional Assembly shall immediately debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. The vote must begin two days after the rejection occurs.
9. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote.
10. If an applicant is rejected for failing an evaluation by forum administration, the applicant may appeal the rejection to the Speaker.
11. In order to appeal the rejection, the applicant must do so within one week of the rejection, must not have been confirmed by administration to have been linked to another forum account or using a proxy, must have a resident nation that is a member of the World Assembly, and must not have already had their rejection upheld by the Regional Assembly.
12. The Speaker will formally grant the applicant’s appeal if the above criteria are met.
13. If the appeal is granted, the Regional Assembly shall debate the rejection and will hold a majority vote on whether to uphold it. If during the debate it is determined that the applicant does not meet the criteria for an appeal, the debate will be suspended and the appeal will be denied.
14. The Regional Assembly may overturn a previous decision to uphold the rejection of an applicant by majority vote, unless forum administration has passed the applicant in a subsequent citizenship application, in which case the previous decision to uphold the rejection is automatically overturned.

10. The Speaker may interview any applicant for additional information, including but not limited to their background, history in NationStates or The North Pacific, or forum accessibility.
11. The Speaker will interview any applicant who fails an evaluation by forum administration.
12. The Speaker must consult the Vice Delegate or forum administration if there is reasonable concern as to whether an applicant should be admitted following any interview. If necessary, the Vice Delegate or forum administration may revise the result of their respective evaluations.
13. The Speaker may reject applicants who failed an evaluation by forum administration following such consultation.
14. The Speaker will reject applicants who failed an evaluation by forum administration and do not complete an interview.

15.The Speaker will accept all other applicants with valid applications.
16. The Speaker will process applications within 7 days. If an applicant has not been approved or rejected within that time, they will be automatically granted citizenship.
Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship:
17. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.
18. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leave or ceases to exist.
19. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board of The North Pacific with their registered nations.
20. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose registered nations in The North Pacific are not in the World Assembly, except as part of an operation with the North Pacific Army, if their citizenship was granted by the Regional Assembly after failing an evaluation by forum administration. This requirement will not apply if the citizens request and then pass another evaluation by forum administration.
2120. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens to whom they granted citizenship in error, if the error is discovered within 7 days of granting their citizenship.
21. The Speaker may request an evaluation by forum administration on any existing citizen at any time, and forum administration may evaluate any existing citizen at any time and inform the Speaker of its findings.
22. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty.
23. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are banned by forum administration.

First and foremost: this bill would effectively make the admin check an advisory one, as has been suggested by many people throughout this year-long debate. To do this, however, requires additional effort to guard against the unintended consequences of disregarding the admin check. For one, this bill retains the prohibition on those who have multiple accounts or evade a judicial penalty. Currently the admins may fail applicants because they are unable to conclusively determine someone is not doing either of these things. However, that inability to come to a conclusion affects far too many who are not guilty of these things. Right now we allow the RA to be the second opinion, but only when an applicant appeals to the RA. To do this as a regular course would grind the gears of the RA to a halt, so we cannot do that. Instead, this bill removes the appeal process for rejecting applicants who fail the admin check, and replaces the RA discussion and vote with an interview process handled by the Speaker. Because I believe that these RA discussions are actually beneficial, and allow us to engage with prospective new citizens and gauge quickly how committed or present they actually are (as opposed to those who only post an oath and disappear), I have included a provision that gives the Speaker the option to interview any applicant. However, the Speaker will be required to interview those applicants who fail the admin check.

It may come to pass that the Speaker has some suspicion or bad feeling about a applicant, and this prompts them to request an interview. There are explicit provisions permitting the Speaker to call back the Vice Delegate or the admins to go over these concerns, and if in the process of their discussion, new information comes to light, they may revise their checks (if already made) to account for the new information. However, if nothing comes from this process, and the other checks are solid, the Speaker has to accept the application. It is only if an applicant failed the admin check that the Speaker has discretion in accepting or rejecting the application. And if the mandatory interview does not take place, that is a mandatory rejection.

Because the appeal process is removed by this bill, so is the provision for removing citizens who do not have a WA nation in TNP. However, because there will be applicants who failed the admin check but still became citizens, there is a new provision added to allow the Speaker the option to have any citizen evaluated by the admins, so that if they ever find evidence to suggest someone is using multiple accounts or evading a judicial penalty, they can be clearly removed from the citizen rolls. I do imagine there is some element of picking up information that goes beyond ip checks, for instance, the Speaker's office becomes aware of something said by a player suggesting they have evaded punishment or are using two accounts. The admin team could verify these claims and fail them based on this, rather than simply using their ip or forum history. This would be sufficient for the Speaker to remove their citizenship, even if superficially the check would turn out no differently than the first time they applied. Remember that this bill does not touch on specific methods of admin checks, and the admin team could fail an applicant on any reasonable basis for trying to determine if the applicant or citizen is violating the law. But again, the standard is confirming they are in violation. It is not enough to say that based on what they know, they cannot rule it out definitively. The standard is catching obvious violators, not assuming every non-obvious innocent person may be a violator. And because that's the standard I felt it was important for the Speaker to always have the option to check on existing citizens - this would likely only be done for those who failed the admin check initially, or have given any cause to treat them with suspicion. Note that this provision also allows the admin team to take this action on their own if they ever have cause of their own to be suspicious, and if they do discover a violation, they can bring it to the Speaker and have them take action.

There is also obviously no additional consideration for the Vice Delegate - that second look is only at the interview stage. If a citizen went on to do something bad that would give the VD cause to try to reject them in an application, I'm willing to bet they would be prosecutable targets. Even if they are not, I believe there is a big difference between catching someone who may have gotten away with breaking the law, and someone who may have been underestimated by the VD and the RA and perhaps would have faced additional scrutiny. I am not against a provision for effectively re-doing the VD check by request the same way we would now allow an additional admin check, but this just doesn't feel like the right move to me.

Finally, I added a provision allowing the Speaker to remove citizenship from those who are banned by forum administration. It's silly to leave an admin banned player on the rolls and let their citizenship lapse naturally, especially if it's a player who still maintains residency and for whatever reason is not banned from the region. They may not be able to make use of it, but it's an arbitrary red tape requirement, so I am cutting that red tape. I also cleaned up a grammatical error that always bugged me.

If it helps, my analogy for the process and what this law would do is this. We are looking for a needle in a haystack, and the admins simply say they could not rule out the haystack contained a needle. I believe that when a needle is found, the needle should be removed, and this law achieves that. What it will not do is flag every needle-shaped thing in the haystack and remove it just in case it's a needle. If it's not an obvious needle, then it should get passed around for an additional look, and only after taking that closer look should we rely on the Speaker to throw it out or decide it's likely not a needle. Even after it's decided it's not a needle, the Speaker can pick it up again and get another opinion, and if it is then discovered it's a needle, out it goes.

I hope you agree that this bill accomplishes our long-sought goal of making the citizenship process more fair and accessible while still taking reasonable efforts to safeguard our security. The last reform bill initially had a lot more consultation and discretion and became a voluntarily relief valve, and in practice a way for the RA to occasionally disagree with the admin check results. I hope you agree this one makes more effective use of our admin team, and I hope I can count on your support. If not, I welcome your thoughts and suggestions for how to further improve the bill.
 
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Overall I think this is a pretty good bill. I do wonder whether it would make more sense for these interviews to be handled by the Vice Delegate who is the official currently responsible for this kind of vetting.

I think another good consideration would be to amend the criminal code to specifically penalize lying during the interview process.
 
I will support when this comes to vote. I'm not too keen on the name... but eh, it's only my preference.
 
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I will support when this comes to vote. I'm not too keen on the name... but eh, it's only my preference.
You do know that the name of the bill doesn’t actually appear in the law right? The legal code doesn’t have any law names in it, no matter how cute or clever they are.

Overall I think this is a pretty good bill. I do wonder whether it would make more sense for these interviews to be handled by the Vice Delegate who is the official currently responsible for this kind of vetting.

I think another good consideration would be to amend the criminal code to specifically penalize lying during the interview process.
Nothing precludes the Vice Delegate from interviewing applicants currently. To be fair, I could say the same about the Speaker. However, the interview is given to the Speaker because ultimately it plays into their decision to accept or reject citizens who fail the admin check. I’m looking for an interview that plays out the way citizenship appeals do now, and that isn’t stuff the VD is considering in their check.

The interview is informal, and if we do discover down the road that certain things were falsely reported, that could be grounds for having the admin team take another look. I admit that that’s no guarantee anything changes, and it wouldn’t make the lying itself a crime or anything. If that’s a serious concern you guys have, we would have to address it here because you can’t even rely on prosecuting them for violating their citizenship oath, since the lying would have taken place before they were officially a citizen.
 
:erasadmin:Admin hat:
I appreciate a means for admin to evaluate at some future point and if multiple accounts are spotted, people can be removed.

I want to clarify on the multiple accounts front, our policy has been to report if someone attempts to have 2 nations at once be citizens. If someone responds and says (x is my sibling/partner/etc), we tell them only one of them can be in the RA at a time. I don't know if the legalese as suggested would cover 2 people in the same house being allowed to keep 1 account (let's say up to resident status) and a 2nd in the RA.

I'm not necessarily in favor of the admin ban = RA ban. What about those that are banned temporarily? Particularly age based bans. I thought they could maintain citizenship solely through the RMB?
 
I'm not necessarily in favor of the admin ban = RA ban. What about those that are banned temporarily? Particularly age based bans. I thought they could maintain citizenship solely through the RMB?
I understand that these people might want to keep citizenship but I don't really see what they are gaining with citizenship if they are banned from the forum? They can't vote or participate in the RA.
 
I understand that these people might want to keep citizenship but I don't really see what they are gaining with citizenship if they are banned from the forum? They can't vote or participate in the RA.
True, but if the ban is temporary should they have to reapply? It's not a deal breaker, but I'd personally appreciate it saying "permanent" ban instead of all bans.
 
:erasadmin:Admin hat:
I appreciate a means for admin to evaluate at some future point and if multiple accounts are spotted, people can be removed.

I want to clarify on the multiple accounts front, our policy has been to report if someone attempts to have 2 nations at once be citizens. If someone responds and says (x is my sibling/partner/etc), we tell them only one of them can be in the RA at a time. I don't know if the legalese as suggested would cover 2 people in the same house being allowed to keep 1 account (let's say up to resident status) and a 2nd in the RA.

I'm not necessarily in favor of the admin ban = RA ban. What about those that are banned temporarily? Particularly age based bans. I thought they could maintain citizenship solely through the RMB?
True, but if the ban is temporary should they have to reapply? It's not a deal breaker, but I'd personally appreciate it saying "permanent" ban instead of all bans.
The bill blocks citizenship for people confirmed to be using multiple accounts. If admin determined that two people in the same place were actually two distinct people, they would not be precluded from citizenship. However, I can easily see admin not being able to determine that, even if it was stated by the applicant, and failing them anyway, which is why it would then fall to the Speaker to decide whether or not the story checked out and they should proceed, and in the process of making that decision, the admins would be able to share what they learned from their own investigation. The idea is that the fate of people who cannot be conclusively proven to be violating the rules or innocent of violating them should not be in the hands of the admins, but in the hands of the body politic, since at the end of the day that's who makes the rules on citizenship. I have heard from admins many times they don't want to make these calls, and feel they should have as light a touch as possible, so I feel these provisions would accomplish that.

It is possible I am missing something important here though. Our citizenship law has never directly addressed having multiple accounts, and I am not sure if there is a rule or administration policy that supercedes my reading that two people in the same place could both have citizenship and their own account on the forum. I don't believe that is impossible, and if I am right, I do not believe admin could actually continue to assert that only one person in the group could be a citizen at a time, in a scenario where we don't fail applicants for failing the admin check.

As far as forum bans being a ban on citizenship: yes, even if it's temporary, the citizenship comes off. They had citizenship in the first place, so getting back is a rather simple thing. They could maintain it with RMB posts, but they wouldn't be actually utilizing it. Some temporary bans may be rather long, or they might be indefinite without being permanent. I think there's no harm in having a universal standard for this, because some of these temporary bans could actually be quite serious, and it's not just punitive to remove citizenship, but a statement on our laws having weird loopholes or us symbolically calling someone who earned a ban one of our citizens when they are not really allowed to participate in our community on that level. I just don't see why we shouldn't strip the citizenship at that point.
 
Before I begin I must say I appreciate how much work has gone into this process, both in the drafting of this law and of earlier laws. This is a largely acceptable bill that I believe should pass. I do have an issue, however.

I wonder if these expanded processes for the Speaker may mean that applications time out before these interviews or consultations can take place or reach their conclusions. I would support extending the time limit for the Speaker to process applications to 10 days, at least until we know how long such a process of interview, consultation, etc, will take place. If my concern is unfounded, then we can always change it back in 6 months time.
 
I think this is a really sensible bill, and it will have my support when it comes to vote.

On St George's concern over applications timing out and extending the time limit for the Speaker to 10 days, I am not sure I like extending the time limit across all cases to 10 days. It could allow a less active Speaker Office (and I by no means mean the current one) to delay new citizens further by their inactivity, even if we only trial this for 6 months. As an alternative, couldn't we leave the time limit for the Speaker at 7 days, with an option for an automatic 3 day extension for the Speaker (should they require it), if they publicly state that they are interviewing the applicant for further information. Doing it this way would mean that "normal" citizenship applications can't be delayed by inactivity with this longer timeframe, while also offering the Speakers Office some flexibility to conduct these interviews properly.
 
I would be remiss if I didn't voice my definite security concerns. Specifically in terms of removing the WA requirement. Practically speaking, the requirement limits a multi-ing player to 2 accounts. I don't particularly like it, but I can live with it. Unless I'm missing something, without the need for WA status, there is no limit. One bad actor could flood the RA.

Stated simply, the more needles you put in a haystack, the more likely you are to get pricked.
 
I would be remiss if I didn't voice my definite security concerns. Specifically in terms of removing the WA requirement. Practically speaking, the requirement limits a multi-ing player to 2 accounts. I don't particularly like it, but I can live with it. Unless I'm missing something, without the need for WA status, there is no limit. One bad actor could flood the RA.

Stated simply, the more needles you put in a haystack, the more likely you are to get pricked.
Before I begin I must say I appreciate how much work has gone into this process, both in the drafting of this law and of earlier laws. This is a largely acceptable bill that I believe should pass. I do have an issue, however.

I wonder if these expanded processes for the Speaker may mean that applications time out before these interviews or consultations can take place or reach their conclusions. I would support extending the time limit for the Speaker to process applications to 10 days, at least until we know how long such a process of interview, consultation, etc, will take place. If my concern is unfounded, then we can always change it back in 6 months time.

I agree with GBM's concerns and voice support for St. George's proposed expansion of the application processing timeline.
 
Aside from the fact that the current WA requirement actually violates the Bill of Rights, I am not convinced that removing it creates a significant security concern. Under this proposed system, admin can still flag people for further scrutiny and if there is reason to believe that people are multiing, they can still be rejected. Even in the current system, it's still very possible to multi with a dynamic residential IP which is increasingly the norm rather than the exception, so let's not pretend we are actually losing anything in terms of security here.
I wonder if these expanded processes for the Speaker may mean that applications time out before these interviews or consultations can take place or reach their conclusions. I would support extending the time limit for the Speaker to process applications to 10 days, at least until we know how long such a process of interview, consultation, etc, will take place. If my concern is unfounded, then we can always change it back in 6 months time.
Perhaps it would make sense for the speaker to be allowed to extend the period at their discretion up to a reasonable maximum if they are interviewing applicants.
 
Aside from the fact that the current WA requirement actually violates the Bill of Rights,

If its a choice and not a requirement, it wouldnt violate the Bill of Rights. Our current exception is legal because there is two paths a person can take, one that needs a WA and one that doesnt. The person can choose which path to follow

On WA Nation Disclosure Requirements
 
If its a choice and not a requirement, it wouldnt violate the Bill of Rights. Our current exception is legal because there is two paths a person can take, one that needs a WA and one that doesnt. The person can choose which path to follow
Many people do not in fact have the ability to freely choose what kind of internet connection they have.
 
I have plenty to say and as current speaker this bill will make a lot of changes in how I work. If the region does vote this bill through and the delegate signs it I will be more than happy to follow it, but I don’t agree with it. Here’s why:

First of all, this bill won’t improve the rate of accepted citizenships. I am convinced. With the struggles (low responses) mentoring already has to help citizens who’ve failed admin check, how much more help will the Speaker give? There are after all messages sent out to applicants who failed admin check and they rarely respond. I can’t see this changing just because I started interviewing them instead.

Also, I believe that plenty of the time people fail admin check because they’re on mobile data or apply from for example school. These applications can easily be fixed if they just reapply, but many don’t due to a lot of applicants having low activity levels. The ones with high activity are the ones that appeal their rejection or try again and succeed. (Like Raze4435 or Japhan) They are the ones that genuinely want citizenship.


Now to the interviews. If someone answer “Hi I am X and was just founded and I don’t have a WA nation because I don’t want one. I don’t know why my IP wasn’t working.”
Is that a sufficient answer? Anyone could say something like that, innocent or not. This Speaker Interview method will in my opinion not help separate the good ones from the bad ones because the bad ones will be clever enough to beat the system. And craving lots of answers from a newcomer can also be demotivating for them.

Also, I am the least data knowledgeable Speaker of all time. Will I now have to be the first speaker to evaluate wether a person is lying about their router connection or IP-address? I won’t have a clue. :/






I like the current system and don’t see this being an improvement to what we currently have. I understand that the bill is intended to make the requirements for citizenship more fair, but I think citizenship is fair enough as it is.

And at the moment it’s not like the current RA votes are coming thick and fast so I think we can live with it. There will always be someone who might miss out and I’d be willing to personally contact them to help them overturn their application or help them reapply. I think that could be a better solution, both for keeping our strong regional security and maintaining the same application rates as with your proposed system.

Edit: I will of course have a neutral stance once this is at vote. I just wanted to voice my concerns.
 
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I have a question that bugs me though, and it's concerning the retroactivity of the law.
Would it be irretroactive like the general sense of the law or would it be a complete 180 turn and have retroactivity, being applicable too to instances of the past? For example, say Heloon. They were banned from the forum and the discord a while back for going against the TOS regarding age. However, they have kept their citizenship as they have mantained a nation in the region and they're active within the RMB. Would this affect their citizenship retroactively?
 
Comfed is right about the security point and wrong about the WA requirement being a violation of the BoR.

@Great Bights Mum the WA requirement is new, we never used to have that. It only comes into play for people who get their rejection of citizenship successfully appealed. I appreciate that it gives an extra sense of security but all the other successful applicants could just as easily be nefarious and just better at hiding. We’re never fully safe from that, we just handle the risk differently. I want to look out for this without unduly hurting innocent people’s chance to become citizens.

@Skaraborg very interesting. So firstly, I know we don’t have a ton of appeals to deal with now. But we would have a ton of votes if the RA had to weigh in on every single applicant, which is what would happen if the admin check is not an automatic fail like in this bill. That’s why I put it in the Speaker’s lap. We need someone to be the second opinion and I wanted to create a similar situation to those RA votes, which I do think can be quite beneficial. You don’t have to be an expert on ips or technology. You just have to get a feel for the applicant and use your best judgment, just like the RA does now. And if they don’t respond, you reject them just like they get rejected now. I suspect that will happen more often than the alternative, but I won’t let go of that extra step of doing due diligence. If they respond late, they can apply again. If they don’t then we can see they were never going to do anything with their citizenship anyway.

I am curious why some people are expressing the sentiment they want the VD to do this interview. I’ve already expressed my thoughts on this, why do you think this is the way to go?

I have a question that bugs me though, and it's concerning the retroactivity of the law.
Would it be irretroactive like the general sense of the law or would it be a complete 180 turn and have retroactivity, being applicable too to instances of the past? For example, say Heloon. They were banned from the forum and the discord a while back for going against the TOS regarding age. However, they have kept their citizenship as they have mantained a nation in the region and they're active within the RMB. Would this affect their citizenship retroactively?
You can’t affect the citizenship retroactively, but I suppose what you mean is, would someone who was banned before this law be impacted by it once it passed? Yes. If this law passed then the Speaker would remove Heloon’s citizenship the very next time he does his checks. But what it won’t do is change the record of when citizenship was granted as if that never happened. The removal date will be the day it was removed.
 
I am curious why some people are expressing the sentiment they want the VD to do this interview. I’ve already expressed my thoughts on this, why do you think this is the way to go?
Because the Vice Delegate is the official responsible for regional security and they are already responsible for vetting new applicants for security concerns. If the goal of these interviews is to improve vetting for applicants as a substitute for an automatic fail of an administrative security check, then to me that seems much more appropriate for the Vice Delegate than the Speaker.
You can’t affect the citizenship retroactively, but I suppose what you mean is, would someone who was banned before this law be impacted by it once it passed? Yes. If this law passed then the Speaker would remove Heloon’s citizenship the very next time he does his checks. But what it won’t do is change the record of when citizenship was granted as if that never happened. The removal date will be the day it was removed.
Heloon isn't banned anymore, for the record. His ban expired earlier this month iirc
 
The bill blocks citizenship for people confirmed to be using multiple accounts. If admin determined that two people in the same place were actually two distinct people, they would not be precluded from citizenship. However, I can easily see admin not being able to determine that, even if it was stated by the applicant, and failing them anyway, which is why it would then fall to the Speaker to decide whether or not the story checked out and they should proceed, and in the process of making that decision, the admins would be able to share what they learned from their own investigation. The idea is that the fate of people who cannot be conclusively proven to be violating the rules or innocent of violating them should not be in the hands of the admins, but in the hands of the body politic, since at the end of the day that's who makes the rules on citizenship. I have heard from admins many times they don't want to make these calls, and feel they should have as light a touch as possible, so I feel these provisions would accomplish that.

It is possible I am missing something important here though. Our citizenship law has never directly addressed having multiple accounts, and I am not sure if there is a rule or administration policy that supercedes my reading that two people in the same place could both have citizenship and their own account on the forum. I don't believe that is impossible, and if I am right, I do not believe admin could actually continue to assert that only one person in the group could be a citizen at a time, in a scenario where we don't fail applicants for failing the admin check.

As far as forum bans being a ban on citizenship: yes, even if it's temporary, the citizenship comes off. They had citizenship in the first place, so getting back is a rather simple thing. They could maintain it with RMB posts, but they wouldn't be actually utilizing it. Some temporary bans may be rather long, or they might be indefinite without being permanent. I think there's no harm in having a universal standard for this, because some of these temporary bans could actually be quite serious, and it's not just punitive to remove citizenship, but a statement on our laws having weird loopholes or us symbolically calling someone who earned a ban one of our citizens when they are not really allowed to participate in our community on that level. I just don't see why we shouldn't strip the citizenship at that point.
Wait, now I'm confused. Aren't you adding: "22. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty."
What constitutes confirmed if not the admin saying it looks like they have 2+ accounts? Do they have to admit to it? And what if the response is "Yes, that's my brother, it's not mine". Can they both join the RA?
 
Because the Vice Delegate is the official responsible for regional security and they are already responsible for vetting new applicants for security concerns. If the goal of these interviews is to improve vetting for applicants as a substitute for an automatic fail of an administrative security check, then to me that seems much more appropriate for the Vice Delegate than the Speaker.

Heloon isn't banned anymore, for the record. His ban expired earlier this month iirc
The admin check is meant to look at people manipulating accounts not whether they are IC security threats. This is accommodating a change in our admin check. The VD already does his check as he always has. So to me, saying you want the VD to do this interview is no different from saying you think the VD should be conducting the appeal process instead of the RA having a discussion on it. The Speaker is looking at the same things the RA is now in this process.

Wait, now I'm confused. Aren't you adding: "22. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who are confirmed to be using a second forum account or evading a judicially-imposed penalty."
What constitutes confirmed if not the admin saying it looks like they have 2+ accounts? Do they have to admit to it? And what if the response is "Yes, that's my brother, it's not mine". Can they both join the RA?
Admin can point out that someone appears to have two accounts but if that person can show that is not what’s happening, then I don’t see why they can’t both become citizens. Right now we have a system where the admin team can stop people from becoming citizens because they may be cheating the system. Most of the time there is no actual evidence that’s happening - admins just can’t rule it out. This bill changes the standard so that admin has to actually demonstrate that the person is cheating. If they can’t, they’ll fail the applicant as they do now, but that failure won’t be enough to stop them from becoming citizens.
 
Ghost I still don't see how the language "speaker will" gives them the leeway to make a decision. What constitutes proof it's not the same person? If multiple accounts are permitted to be in the RA when there's clear overlap according to admin, I'm really not in favor of this.

It's a long way from "I can't access the internet any other way" to "my 15 siblings and I all want to join the RA". Admin does not publicly announce *which* accounts are matched. Yet this would seem to require that we divulge such info to (at minimum) the Speaker's office.
 
The admin check is meant to look at people manipulating accounts not whether they are IC security threats. This is accommodating a change in our admin check. The VD already does his check as he always has. So to me, saying you want the VD to do this interview is no different from saying you think the VD should be conducting the appeal process instead of the RA having a discussion on it. The Speaker is looking at the same things the RA is now in this process.
Ultimately, people who create multiple accounts to manipulate votes are IC security threats. This is a security process that is being created and as such it is much better suited for the office that already has a role in security checks than the Speaker's office.
If multiple accounts are permitted to be in the RA when there's clear overlap according to admin, I'm really not in favor of this.
I tend to agree with this. To my mind this should be more for the far larger group of people who do not have access to a residential IP than for the people who happen to have IP addresses overlap - I would be willing to bet that the number of people who make deceitful excuses for alt accounts they control is larger than the people who actually just happen to share the same network or something similar.
 
Ghost I still don't see how the language "speaker will" gives them the leeway to make a decision. What constitutes proof it's not the same person? If multiple accounts are permitted to be in the RA when there's clear overlap according to admin, I'm really not in favor of this.

It's a long way from "I can't access the internet any other way" to "my 15 siblings and I all want to join the RA". Admin does not publicly announce *which* accounts are matched. Yet this would seem to require that we divulge such info to (at minimum) the Speaker's office.
The “will” language only requires the Speaker to reject people confirmed by admin to be using multiple accounts or proxying, and anyone rejected by admin who does not complete an interview. The Speaker has discretion for anyone rejected by admin who they did not confirm to be doing the things admin is looking for. That would include every single hypothetical instance of players who claim to have siblings or partners or whatever to explain their seemingly duplicate accounts. I believe admin can figure this out with the players in question, and declaring the person is multi-ing would be enough to force the Speaker’s hand, without you having to divulge anything. If the Speaker consults with you, again, you can provide whatever information you deem appropriate or transmissible and nothing else. The law does not compel the admin team on methods of doing their checks. But I happen to know, from speaking to other admin teams, that you are capable of exercising discretion and altering your methods to suit the times. We have asked you to do this repeatedly and it has not happened. We have to change this process because it isn’t working as designed.

I’m sure it’s difficult to make these determinations, however. I can’t think of the last time admin definitively identified anyone violating these provisions, so all they can do is flag anyone who isn’t a guaranteed safe bet (and again, I would argue that even those “guaranteed” safe applicants are not guaranteed). This is why so many people fail this check. I don’t see this particular scenario happening very often, though, this multiple accounts from two different people thing, and I hate that we cannot accommodate this situation. If this is truly so unthinkable for people then perhaps we have to make it a hard line, but that would be a shame. I have seen this difficulty affect promising players in the last year, one of whom only managed to become a citizen because of a clerical error, despite the fact everyone knew we were dealing with two separate and distinct people. And it destroyed their commitment to this community and we lost them because of it. There was absolutely no reason for that. The paranoia and fear that comes through when this topic is addressed starts to be a bit much after a while.

Admins can already work with applicants who are linked. You cannot help when two linked accounts are active accounts and seemingly distinct people though. For the scenario I’m thinking of, I’m not sure there’s really a way for you to hold that info back. But aside from that no one is asking you to publicly divulge that information. The Speaker only needs to know whatever information helps them determine if there’s good cause to reject an application.

Ultimately, people who create multiple accounts to manipulate votes are IC security threats. This is a security process that is being created and as such it is much better suited for the office that already has a role in security checks than the Speaker's office.

I tend to agree with this. To my mind this should be more for the far larger group of people who do not have access to a residential IP than for the people who happen to have IP addresses overlap - I would be willing to bet that the number of people who make deceitful excuses for alt accounts they control is larger than the people who actually just happen to share the same network or something similar.
To be clear, we’re talking about two different types of security issues. People breaking account limitations or disregarding punishment are not the same as outsider coupers and fascists. It is true that some of these people may try to get around limitations on the forum but that’s playing games with the system itself. The VD is looking out for people whose danger comes from the content of this game. It’s a meta vs. inner game kind of thing. The Speaker’s traditional role is clerical, and that’s a meta type thing. The Speaker’s check is a cousin to the admin’s check. That’s why I feel the Speaker can take on this role and why it feels strange for the VD to do it.

And Comfed, this is for the people you think it’s for. I’m open to the statistics of people claiming to have multiple legitimate people sharing their ip, because this simply has not been seen much in the past. And let’s not pretend there’s dozens of people out there who are civically minded and know how our process works. They don’t exist. People who want to try a scam like you and Eras are afraid of don’t know how permissive or not our laws are. And if they suddenly start showing up out of the blue and in great numbers that would call all the attention to itself. And the Speaker is empowered to reject such people under this law. Let’s stop chasing at shadows.
 
To be clear, we’re talking about two different types of security issues. People breaking account limitations or disregarding punishment are not the same as outsider coupers and fascists. It is true that some of these people may try to get around limitations on the forum but that’s playing games with the system itself. The VD is looking out for people whose danger comes from the content of this game. It’s a meta vs. inner game kind of thing. The Speaker’s traditional role is clerical, and that’s a meta type thing. The Speaker’s check is a cousin to the admin’s check. That’s why I feel the Speaker can take on this role and why it feels strange for the VD to do it.
To be honest I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making between people who manipulate the system and people whose danger comes from the content of this game and I think it's sort of irrelevant to the nature of the threats from both - they are both security threats. The admin check is a means to catch bad actors by using the capabilities of our forum software to identify any other identities that they may be hiding. The Vice Delegate uses other means to identify such bad actors which don't involve access to IP tools. But ultimately, these two citizenship checks exist to vet who we allow to have a vote and to serve as government officials and to stop bad actors from participating. The distinction between people who manipulate the systems we have in place and people who pose a threat due to the content of the game itself is, to my mind, meaningless; manipulating the system makes you a security threat and those who would wish to, say, overthrow the legal government will probably manipulate the system to get what they want. In either case, you have a bad actor who shouldn't be allowed citizenship. On the other hand, the Speaker has no role in this vetting at all - the role is, as you say, clerical, and the most involvement that office has in actually checking people is in ensuring there are no errors in people's applications. Adding a duty for the Speaker to actually vet applicants and exercise considerable discretion over whether they should be allowed citizenship would be adding a responsibility which would be very different in nature from any the Speaker currently performs.
 
To be honest I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making between people who manipulate the system and people whose danger comes from the content of this game and I think it's sort of irrelevant to the nature of the threats from both - they are both security threats. The admin check is a means to catch bad actors by using the capabilities of our forum software to identify any other identities that they may be hiding. The Vice Delegate uses other means to identify such bad actors which don't involve access to IP tools. But ultimately, these two citizenship checks exist to vet who we allow to have a vote and to serve as government officials and to stop bad actors from participating. The distinction between people who manipulate the systems we have in place and people who pose a threat due to the content of the game itself is, to my mind, meaningless; manipulating the system makes you a security threat and those who would wish to, say, overthrow the legal government will probably manipulate the system to get what they want. In either case, you have a bad actor who shouldn't be allowed citizenship. On the other hand, the Speaker has no role in this vetting at all - the role is, as you say, clerical, and the most involvement that office has in actually checking people is in ensuring there are no errors in people's applications. Adding a duty for the Speaker to actually vet applicants and exercise considerable discretion over whether they should be allowed citizenship would be adding a responsibility which would be very different in nature from any the Speaker currently performs.
I’m explaining the philosophy behind the checks and why I think they have a distinct purpose. Of course a threat is a threat no matter how they come in, every case is different and has to be judged on its own merits. At the risk of going in circles, the bill isn’t asking anything of the Speaker that current law isn’t already asking of the RA. The Speaker manages the RA, and the Speaker is responsible for giving and taking away citizenship. We’ve changed these roles before, we can do the same with the Speaker, because we need some form of discretion and this is the only official who actually can make citizens. The VD’s check is ultimately up to the RA. This bill envisions a possible scenario where the Speaker’s due diligence could lead to the VD revising their opinion. I’ve been VD, as have several other people aware of this discussion. I can tell you that we don’t interview applicants as a matter of course. That doesn’t mean we can’t do that but it’s usually not how it’s done. What we look at doesn’t typically involve such things. Why would the VD ask a stranger, which is most often what an applicant is, questions about their background or their plans for the region? Pretty much nothing they hear or determine would be useful in helping them identify the things they look for.

That’s something the Speaker could do, though, channeling the spirit of these RA appeal discussions. That’s the spirit I’m aiming for with this provision. I don’t expect the Speaker to use their new ability to randomly interview applicants very often - I suspect the Speaker will be interviewing only applicants who failed the admin check. And the interview is looking for a reason to feel good about the fact the applicant didn’t have an ip that made admins comfortable they were definitely a unique individual. It’s not meant to see if someone may overthrow our region or destroy our government. That’s what the VD check is for. I’m wondering if perhaps you don’t understand that. As we’ve discussed, security overlaps with these checks. The VD doesn’t own security in the “security” check. Each check is primarily concerned with a certain aspect of security, but that doesn’t mean they can’t cover additional ground. I don’t think we should concentrate everything in one area. The VD already has their area covered. The admins have their area covered. More eyes and more consideration in this process seem like a good idea to me.
 
Adding a duty for the Speaker to actually vet applicants and exercise considerable discretion over whether they should be allowed citizenship would be adding a responsibility which would be very different in nature from any the Speaker currently performs.
I want to echo this point. You're moving control from the entire RA to one individual and a position that has never before made this type of evaluation. Multiple accounts have never been subject to an RA vote previously. Only the unsuitable IP ones.

Also, the Vice Delegate rejections result in a vote before the RA. Yet nothing for this Speaker's rejection?

Personally, I'm honestly not unhappy with being more strict in admissions then other regions. We don't have to have some intelligence group working to figure out if Person A is actually Person B and a list of suspicious behaviors.
 
@Pallaith , this is just a suggestion since many is voicing concern over one individual handling these evaluations. To not lay the responsibility on one individual, why can’t the RA then vote on the applicants who pass the Speaker evaluation?
 
I want to echo this point. You're moving control from the entire RA to one individual and a position that has never before made this type of evaluation. Multiple accounts have never been subject to an RA vote previously. Only the unsuitable IP ones.

Also, the Vice Delegate rejections result in a vote before the RA. Yet nothing for this Speaker's rejection?

Personally, I'm honestly not unhappy with being more strict in admissions then other regions. We don't have to have some intelligence group working to figure out if Person A is actually Person B and a list of suspicious behaviors.
First of all, it is true that I wanted to add in people whose accounts are linked but who are separate people. It almost never happens but we shouldn’t turn such people away. If admin had demonstrated they could accommodate such a scenario I wouldn’t need to be doing this (and honestly probably any of this). But that’s not what happened.

We can’t treat this situation like the VD check. The VD almost never rejects anyone and a vote on that rejection is automatic. The Speaker in this bill will likely be rejecting people far more often than the VD. I am concerned about making the citizenship process clunkier by having the entire RA be regularly involved in it.

Obviously you’re not unhappy with how stringent we are. But maybe you should be. What a waste, especially going into a period where we’re going to working harder than ever before to bring in new people, to just toss a bunch a way because we want to be extra careful about unlikely scenarios that have never happened and probably won’t. We have to give a little, this is getting out of hand.

@Pallaith , this is just a suggestion since many is voicing concern over one individual handling these evaluations. To not lay the responsibility on one individual, why can’t the RA then vote on the applicants who pass the Speaker evaluation?
I already addressed this. I would like to address a related point though. Why not have the VD be the person doing this instead of the Speaker? So let’s say we have a VD check and the VD passes the applicant. Subsequently the applicant fails the admin check, and it’s due to the ip thing. So the VD interviews the applicant and gets surly, uncooperative responses. Maybe the person barely answers any questions or answers strangely. It’s up to the VD to make a call and they decide to reject. So do we treat that as a distinct and separate check, or would that be cause to have a vote on the applicant?

Now take that same scenario, only the VD initially failed the applicant, and the RA overruled their rejection. So the VD could arguably claim to be rejecting on a different basis (a reasonable claim given the checks look at different things) but could also be getting a second bite at the apple. So now we’re faced with having to amend the bill to reconsider entirely how the VD check works just to make the VD do what is basically a second VD check but not the same VD check.

Let’s get a bit more fundamental here guys. I think that most of us want to put an end to this stupid ip block on the admin check. Most of us want the admin team to be more flexible and nuanced in how they run checks. But we’re not going to get that without changing this law. I want us to have officials who can do this stuff for us so we don’t all have to spend time voting on every little act. We delegate these responsibilities, we trust our officials to do them, and if they break our trust we have measures we can take to deal with them. We shouldn’t need to consider how we’re going to get a vote going to double check an official’s work. The RA appeal system is not some sacred thing, it’s not even a year old. It’s a compromise and I certainly don’t view it as the finish line. The finish line is a citizenship process where most applicants pass muster and only the clearly sneaky and suspicious get scrutiny. Where you aren’t turned away because of your home or economic situation. Where you can join the same community as your sibling or partner and have friends and people who know you both and not get turned away the same way random noob 405 who accidentally made two accounts on the forum gets turned away. For all the talk of puppet mastering and old dangerous criminals slipping in under a fake nose and glasses, I think we’re missing some basic common sense things here and getting hung up on fantastic and unlikely scenarios. Fear causes us to lose sight of what’s right in front of us, and what matters. Building a better community that is fair and open and accommodates people from all walks of life, and fundamentally trusts them. I think that’s what TNP should stand for and how we should operate this process.

At the end of the day I can accept if people just cannot stomach the idea of the Speaker being the person making this call. But if not the Speaker, I’m not sure who the best fit is. I certainly don’t want the entire RA voting on this every time. And I don’t want to change how the VD functions, but if we go this route I don’t see how else to go about it. Any thoughts?
 
First of all, it is true that I wanted to add in people whose accounts are linked but who are separate people. It almost never happens but we shouldn’t turn such people away.
With this specific example - this is a bad idea. People have used the excuse that their duplicate account is just their brother's account all the time. This isn't some kind of far-fetched nightmare scenario, and this has actually happened. That excuse is usually a lie and the fact that the IP addresses of two accounts match is a much better standard to make decisions off of than just someone's word. This is not really comparable to people who don't have access to a residential internet connection, which represents a very large swath of the world's population and there is no IP evidence to link them to another account; the number of people who are actually in this situation is small and unfortunately this excuse is just too common and too difficult to verify that the risk is not worth taking.
Now take that same scenario, only the VD initially failed the applicant, and the RA overruled their rejection. So the VD could arguably claim to be rejecting on a different basis (a reasonable claim given the checks look at different things) but could also be getting a second bite at the apple. So now we’re faced with having to amend the bill to reconsider entirely how the VD check works just to make the VD do what is basically a second VD check but not the same VD check.
I don't see this as a bad solution. This is really just another security check that you are adding here, so consolidating this with the existing Vice Delegate's check sounds like a good idea to me. Also, I'm not convinced that if we were to vote on all RA rejections under this law that it would grind the RA to a halt. I suspect that the vast majority of these people have only failed the residential IP address requirement and could easily be accepted because their only issue is not having a specific type of connection. I don't believe that RA votes on Vice Delegate rejections are necessary at all but if we are to have them I don't think we would be inundated with votes.
 
With this specific example - this is a bad idea. People have used the excuse that their duplicate account is just their brother's account all the time. This isn't some kind of far-fetched nightmare scenario, and this has actually happened. That excuse is usually a lie and the fact that the IP addresses of two accounts match is a much better standard to make decisions off of than just someone's word. This is not really comparable to people who don't have access to a residential internet connection, which represents a very large swath of the world's population and there is no IP evidence to link them to another account; the number of people who are actually in this situation is small and unfortunately this excuse is just too common and too difficult to verify that the risk is not worth taking.

I don't see this as a bad solution. This is really just another security check that you are adding here, so consolidating this with the existing Vice Delegate's check sounds like a good idea to me. Also, I'm not convinced that if we were to vote on all RA rejections under this law that it would grind the RA to a halt. I suspect that the vast majority of these people have only failed the residential IP address requirement and could easily be accepted because their only issue is not having a specific type of connection. I don't believe that RA votes on Vice Delegate rejections are necessary at all but if we are to have them I don't think we would be inundated with votes.
There is an obvious difference between "oh it's my brother he's totally real" and the situation we saw last year with Maddie and Kronos. The law needs to allow us to take action against the first scenario and accommodate the second. This bill does that. The current law does not. And it's almost insulting to everyone's intelligence that you won't acknowledge that and want to continue fearmongering about one of the oldest tricks in the internet book when this bill absolutely allows such people to be shut down. It doesn't just enable them to be shut down from the start, it allows them to be shut down at any time in the future upon discovery. The current law also doesn't account for that (though I would assert the admin team always has the option to take down players who get caught lying about this stuff).

Do you not see how many applications we process on a weekly basis? Almost none of those who fail the admin check bother to appeal. This bill, if done your way, would subject every single failed applicant to a vote. There would never be a week where we did not have one of these votes going in some form, whether the initial stage or the voting one. The RA doesn't literally grind to a halt, but it would never have a moment's peace and if you think these things are rubber stamped now, wait until you see what the RA does when it realizes it has to do one of these votes every other day. I predict it will be a matter of course for people to motion them to vote within minutes of the discussion starting, so reflexively it's not even hard for me to picture some people who actually ought to have greater scrutiny slipping by unnoticed. And if you have to present an applicant to the RA with something like a disclaimer saying "but guys pay attention, this one actually is kind of shady" and hope that people pay attention, I don't think you're working with the best possible system.

If you're counting on most of the applicants to be uncontroversial, I don't see why it's so horrible to let the Speaker send them through as a matter of course like everything else they do. But I am tired of arguing this point. I have an idea for an alternative version of this proposal. I'll be curious to see how well it goes over with many of you.
 
Ghost has a way with words. He could be a snake oil salesman if he wanted to be. I gotta say now that I support this act and take back what I said before. I definitely think this is the proper route for the North Pacific to take that will be beneficial for its future prosperity.
 
I have presented a second version of this bill. This one is much simpler to explain: the admin check is advisory, with the exception of automatic fails for people confirmed to be using multiple accounts or proxying, and the VD will have to take that check into consideration when doing their check. If they pass an applicant who then fails the admin check, they have to check them again. Obviously anyone they reject goes to the RA for a vote, as always. I have, at the suggestion of admin, added a provision that requires the Speaker to reject any applicant who does not have WA in the region, if they failed the admin check but passed the VD check. This will likely greatly add to the number of WA locked citizens, since the appeal situations still don't happen all that much, but it does give everyone that extra bit of confidence that there cannot be such easy shenanigans from the (still in my view rather unlikely) bad actors who may be trying to get in. I appreciate that this provision isn't something all of you like, and having more of it is probably not the direction you wish to go. I guess this will come down to how strongly you feel about it, and whether or not this provision is enough to satisfy the worst of the admins' concerns. If they could sign off on this bill, then that's got to count for something.

The second part of the bill is unchanged from my first version - the Speaker can still call on admins to do a check whenever they want, and the admins can check on anyone and advise the Speaker, and the Speaker can remove citizenship from people who are administratively banned - with the exception of restoring the WA check requirement, since WA is still required for some citizens. The only change to this clause is the reference to the RA granting the citizenship, since that is no longer happening.

In case you missed the earlier discovery today, there was a provision to allow citizens to voluntarily revoke their citizenship, but it was erroneously removed when a subsequent citizenship law change passed the RA. So I have put that provision back in - it is not new, it was something we all thought was law for months now but had been stricken from the books.

Personally, I still feel this is asking the VD to consider something that isn't in line with the kind of things they are typically concerned with, and it would elevate the frequency of VD rejection votes. Those are still automatic and limited to 2 days. I suspect many of you would welcome this since the appeal discussions can be so boilerplate these days. It shouldn't result in a deluge of such votes, as I suspect the VD will be still be passing most applicants, but I wouldn't be surprised if e saw what is often a very rare occurrence become more frequent.
 
Why is it that when the Vice Delegate rejects someone there has to be a vote but when the Speaker rejects someone in the earlier version of your bill there doesn’t? Why is the interview bit gone?
 
Why is it that when the Vice Delegate rejects someone there has to be a vote but when the Speaker rejects someone in the earlier version of your bill there doesn’t? Why is the interview bit gone?
The new version of the bill folds evaluation of the admin-failed applicants into the VD check. The VD check requires an RA vote. Because the Speaker evaluating applicants would be breaking new ground, I wanted to outline a clear process for how to do that. Adapting our existing process in the appeal was my approach - the interview was meant to condense that RA discussion while retaining its spirit. I am generally uncomfortable with over-explaining how officials are to conduct their evaluations, which is why even when coming up with the interview idea I tried to be as broad as possible. The VD has a lot of history and practice with conducting their check, they don’t need us to come up with a specific element they have to adopt in their process.

If we already had admins and the VD checking an applicant and they passed muster there, I felt that the Speaker being the final set of eyes would be sufficient, especially given they would have to consult with the others. But if we take the Speaker out of the process, we only have the other two, and we already have a vote of the RA built into that process. I saw the Speaker making the call taking the place of the RA making the call as it is now.
 
I would vote for this. There are some minor issues present that others have articulated however this is a step forward and as such I believe it should pass.
 
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