Appeal of the Rejection of Madeline Valois' Citizenship Application

Madeline Valois failed the admin check here and appealed their rejection here. They have not been confirmed by administration to have been linked to another forum account or be using a proxy, have a resident nation that is a member of the World Assembly, and have not already had their rejection upheld by the Regional Assembly.

Pursuant to 6.1.10-14 of the Legal Code, this qualifies Madeline Valois to have this rejection debated by the RA and potentially overturned - at which point they would be granted citizenship contingent on continued WA residency in the region excepting participation in NPA operations.

Please ask any questions you may desire to ask of @Madeline Valois in this thread. This is not the appeal's official debate thread.

Hi, Maddie! So, the first thing I think that may be helpful is what would you use your citizenship to do beyond, say, voting? Do you have any plans for involvement with the region in, say, the Executive Staff?

Hi there!

I quite literally have absolutely zero interest in voting on anything within this region unless there will be a vote to make it so that my situation doesn’t happen again for the next unfortunate being who happens to live with someone who also happens to play nation states.

When I apply for citizenship, it was because I want to be part of the executive staff and I want to join the NPA, frankly I have no idea what else a citizen gets to do, because at the end of the day I only cared about being involved in the executive so that I could eventually hold an actual position of office and also participate within the NPA, as I’m a fan of Triggering.

I have more I can say especially to make my case to this wonderful assembly as to why they should overturn the admins’ denial, but I also don’t want to overstep.

I am super happy to answer any other questions or concerns that people have! I just want to be a citizen, and I don’t understand why this is so difficult, so that’s where I’m coming from.

Madeline Valois:

I just want to be a citizen, and I don’t understand why this is so difficult, so that’s where I’m coming from.

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If you want some context and have the patience to read through the whole thread, you might want to read this:
Welcome, by the way

Madeline Valois:

Hi there!

I quite literally have absolutely zero interest in voting on anything within this region unless there will be a vote to make it so that my situation doesn’t happen again for the next unfortunate being who happens to live with someone who also happens to play nation states.

When I apply for citizenship, it was because I want to be part of the executive staff and I want to join the NPA, frankly I have no idea what else a citizen gets to do, because at the end of the day I only cared about being involved in the executive so that I could eventually hold an actual position of office and also participate within the NPA, as I’m a fan of Triggering.

I have more I can say especially to make my case to this wonderful assembly as to why they should overturn the admins’ denial, but I also don’t want to overstep.

I am super happy to answer any other questions or concerns that people have! I just want to be a citizen, and I don’t understand why this is so difficult, so that’s where I’m coming from.

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What Ministries would you specifically join and why? I see Defense, but what else might you do here?

I think it might be fruitful for me to give a little bit of context in my experience a nation states, this should probably help better prove that I’m not just going to be a Kronos puppet and help flood elections and assembly votes because integrity lol.

When I started a nation states about seven years ago, start off in a user created region and started to gain my love for the executive side of things. From then forward I dabbled in leading executive offices to being the head of executive in many regions as well as writing legislation.

I am to date the longest serving Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Great Britain.
In that region specifically, I worked within the foreign office to begin the mending of soured relations caused by men who make poor manipulative choices. I also head of the military within the region and led to the eventual dissolution of the military.
In the culture office, introduced a myriad of new activities as well as acted as the BBC Director for well over six months where I facilitated in-depth polls, sassy articles, and informative opinion articles to challenge people to think a little bit deeper about their involvement and the way that they leave impressions.
In the home office I facilitated many different recruitment programs including a recruitment drive, a stamp drive, I have created countless recruitment telegrams, I have manually recruited, the works. In this office, I also revamped a number of times the master citizenship list which is a Google sheet that has all the information on every single citizen within the region where we would check on a weekly basis who is still eligible for citizenship and who is at risk of loss.

I have also served as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, more recently, where we began the process of organizing some interregional events, started the revival of the military there, initiated a football league, and continue the process of recruitment drives.

I’ve also served as the head of executive in other regions that are now dead, such as the galactic order, and the ragerium imperium, where are you, as a very strong and menacing force, push for change and if people were not working with me I was moving on without them.

I am by my own definition an executive junkie, or I can and I will sign up for everything and anything that sounds cool and interesting for me. I can fill in gaps where there is a lack of energy, and I am exceedingly encouraging on others to do their best, be their best, and achieve their best.

So, to answer your question about what the heck do I want to do, the answer is everything. I have spent so much of my time and UCRs that I don’t have a clue how regions of the size operate. I wanna learn how these regions operate, I want to do everything.

I want to join the Ministry of media and see which publication I fit best in so I can help pump out anything and everything. One of my favorite writing styles is role-play parodies where I take people by name within the region put them in ridiculous situations that may or may not allude to whatever political nonsense is going on in the region, and spin it in a way that is both fun to read but it’s also not at the expense of the people involved.
Have you ever read about Ghost and Kronos getting sucked into a sumo wrestling match in the middle of the Atlantic ocean because Kasto lost a bet to a green Camel? No? You should!

I want to join the Ministry of culture so that I can help organize both regional and interregional events, let’s make parties let’s make frog racing competitions. Let’s do things that make people want to be involved and stick around for whatever nonsense comes next.
This loops right into my want to join the Ministry of home affairs. Recruiting people and making people feel welcome and excited to be here is one of my favorite things that I had the privilege of doing a nation states. When I first started in nation states, and almost anytime I first joined a community, I am welcomed with open arms I am encouraged to be involved and I am consistently encouraged after I am involved. I want to share that good feeling that I get with other people so that it just can continue going.

I have been head of foreign affairs in other regions for so long that I have absolutely zero interest in serving in that ministry in any capacity, no offense to folks who enjoy it, I am just so spent and so on interested.

I also want to join the world assembly affairs ministry, because I want to learn what the heck the world assembly is even about outside of the basics that anyone can read and any guide .
In all my seven years I have never taken my status in the world Assembly seriously. I was never that into trying to get as many endorsements as possible, I have never been a delegate outside of tags and detagging, and frankly I was never given an opportunity to take an interest in world assembly affairs in the other regions that I’ve spent time in. This is mainly because those regions never had enough people interested or never had the numbers to really necessitate genuine interest in the world Assembly outside of “let’s make sure we have a delegate“.
I want to fall down the rabbit hole in the world assembly. I want to find out what makes some of these people who write these resolutions so passionate. I want to see what makes them genuinely want to continue to keep the old assembly in one place instead of nowhere at all, or waking up one day and wondering where the heck it is.

I also eventually want to be able to run for these positions, I can do everything else as a resident, but I can’t run for office and I also can’t hold people accountable, in other words I don’t think I’ll actually be taken seriously if I’m not a citizen here.

I’m not making a big stink about the fact that my citizenship was denied just so I can be inactive and stick it to the admins who told me no based on a policy that is in my opinion exceedingly out of date. I genuinely want to get involved here, and while normal people would just say whatever and go elsewhere, I genuinely like the folks are here and I want to actually be involved in the community that these people are involved in. My denial of citizenship is a straight up exclusion in the name of “regional security”.

Ministry of Culture takes residents, Media does too i believe. You can join those now without waiting on this process

Dreadton:

Ministry of Culture takes residents, Media does too i believe. You can join those now without waiting on this process

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So do we in the MoWAA. Would be a bit hypocritical if we didn’t :p

I think you can join all the ministries except Defence and Foreign Affairs without citizenship (I think).

Yes very much aware I can do most of the things as a resident! That still doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be a citizen.
I find it hard to believe that my situation is the first we’ve ever seen in the 10+ years that the admins have supposedly been enforcing this policy of a one per household. I get it, hard to believe you actually know someone IRL who is in your region and plays NS, maybe married people or folks in committed relationships avoid TNP like the plague. Regardless, based on just what the law says, I shouldn’t have been denied. My IP is very clearly not a proxy, nor am I attempting to get around anything extrajudicially.
I understand laws here are apparently practiced to the T unless it comes to situations where you just have to assume, without any kind of documentation, that people are doing their jobs appropriately, how admins decide to treat IP checks falls under this assume they are doing it right until they are not.
My very ability to even challenge their decision to deny my citizenship is even in question because the law is just a little too vague and is interpreted too specifically.

There is no reason why I shouldn’t be a citizen, and the blocker is because of a policy that I can’t even find written anywhere here. I don’t think people actually know what admins are checking with IPs, and this is leading to unavoidable situations where a _policy_ is being followed over what the law says.

If I have to wait for a law to be changed or the admins to admit mistake in using a policy that’s probably old enough to play NS without parental supervision, that’s fine, however I don’t accept the notion that this is something new.

If you still don’t believe I am not a Kronos puppet (which is silly because everywhere else Kronos assumed to be a Maddie puppet!), look up my discord username on Instagram. We are very clearly two people, who are engaged, with two cats, living in the same house.
I’ll accept congratulations in the form of my being a citizen!

You are the first to be granted an appeal that did not meet the qualifications for it. Before this law was passed, there was not an appeal process to begin with and the admin team has failed many an account for this very situation. In fact, you were not the first in the last 2 months. So there was no mistake on the part of the admin team, they conducted the admin check as they have since the citizenship process was adopted. That process has always failed applicants who are linked significantly to other accounts. The legal code defines proxying as '21. "Proxying" is defined as use of a proxy server to render a forum user anonymous or any practice which allows a member multiple accounts.' This applies here and thus your application was failed. There was enough evidence to establish a significant link between your account and Kronos. By your own admission, that link exist. The admins dont go hunting down social media profiles and look for private infromation to determine if the accounts are two different people. That is a level that is unnessary for a webgame, not to mention invasive. To assume that they are wrong here or did something different is disingenuous. The admin check has been conducted the same way for as long as i have been here and likely long before.


The issue is not if you are a puppet of Kronos. Its that you were granted an appeal in error and do not qualify for citizenship. Thats the point of contention among the members. Continuing to conduct the appeal establishes a large loop hole that was imagine when this bill was passed. We are debating how this should be addressed by the Speaker. while no one will be happy with the results, it will set us up to address this with the Court or the Regional Assembly in the future.

@Madeline Valois, at the moment, it seems we are waiting for the Speaker’s determination on whether your appeal is valid and, if determined not to be, on what is to be done about it.

While we are waiting for that, I wanted to let you comment on something that is troubling me about this situation. I understand the issue you take with how enforcement of the restriction on multiple accounts has been applied to you but I think that Dreadton is right and that the decision is very much in line with long practice. I think it is also likely to be how similar situations are looked at in future.

So, it seems to me that, if you are given citizenship, it will be because of a mistake by the Speaker’s Office in your favour.

Now, if this comes up in future, a future applicant will be met with something that seems to me very unfair. They won’t be allowed citizenship or even the chance to appeal. Yet, there may be a citizen who was in the exact same situation as them but who did get an appeal and citizenship. Given your view on the restriction in the first place, that presumably seems doubly unfair to you.

I don’t think it is fair for that future applicant to have to rely on an error of law to get equal treatment. I doubt that a future applicant, if told that it just came down to luck, would find it fair.

I also don’t think that it is likely that the law is going to be changed to remove these checks and I don’t think there is an appetite for the Administration to peer into people’s real lives too deeply for the sake of this game.

I appreciate that this is not so much a question as a collection of thoughts but it is the issue about all this that concerns me the most and I thought it would be fair to put it here so you could comment on it, given it is something that will probably inform how I vote.

Another issue is about what this would mean for your citizenship in future. Unless the law is changed, a lapse in citizenship would probably mean that you would be denied on reapplying and not benefit from an appeal. While I am sceptical that any challenge in the Court at the moment would go anywhere, it would likely remain a risk while you were a citizen and, particularly, if you pursue your goal of government office. My assumption would be that, while you think it unfair for the reasons you have said, you want citizenship and would accept those risks, am I right in thinking that?

I believe at the end of the day, when more people who are in my situation try to join here and are denied either jointly or told to choose who gets to be a citizen and who doesn’t, TNP will have to make the choice to allow their admins to continue to practice a custom where elsewhere, if there is proof two accounts are in fact different people in spite of a shared IP, those people are then allowed citizenship.

Perhaps that’s something TNP needs to decide now. Start taking more seriously the role of which IP checks are, which are to ensure electoral integrity and regional safety are upheld, while also not deterring people away.

From my POV, this is an intentional administrative decision due to a fear that people are going to abuse it.
I have been on this forum prior to my IP matching Kronos. If we were both citizens and our IPs started matching, what would happen? Would we both be stripped? Told to choose who stays and who goes? Has TNP ever found themselves in a situation where after citizenship was granted two accounts matched, in spite of those two account being genuinely different people?

I still hold the position that the law is too vague on what it means by linked accounts, and it has allowed for situations such as mine to be roped into someone trying to double dip using two nations, when my wanting to be a citizen while Kronos is a citizen is NOT the same as one person wanting to be a citizen with two nations on two accounts.
There’s easy methods to check this without delving into the private lives of people, and frankly how more invasive are admins really being by looking at our IPs in the first place? You already know my Geolocation, ask me if I know anyone who might match my IP and what my affiliation with them are, is there really more that is genuinely needed?
I am fully aware that my citizenship would be viewed as illegitimate to many who care little to recognize the genuine issue with why my application was denied.
And I am aware that if I, or Kronos for that matter, were to lose citizenship while the other was still a citizen, reapplying would be met with denial unless the law or policy was changed.
I want to be a citizen, and that hasn’t changed despite the absolute clustercluck complication that my applying has led to.
I still have full intention to eventually run for office and make TNP my GCR home. That has not changed either.

The only thing that has changed for me personally is pursuing change in the laws to account for my situation so that nobody has to deal with it again.

I am pleased to announce that following an internal vote, the appeal has passed the voting floor.