[Proposal] Dragons 2: Electric Boogaloo

Hello Conclave! Based on a recent conversation I had with some of you guys as well as Pry in regards to dragons, I've come to you with the requested species proposal so the formal process can begin. Questions and comments welcome, obviously.


BASIC SPECIES INFO
Species name: Syrixian Tiger Dragon - scientific name either draco vellus kylothus or draco vellus syrixiensis
Origin: Part of the reptilian family; could have possibly evolved from pterosaurs
Average Lifespan: 80-150
Skin: Furred, tiger-like
Average Height: Probably around that of an African elephant, maybe a tiny bit bigger
Average Weight: Probably around 5,000 to 20,000 lbs.

FAQ
How do they breathe fire?: They don't. When they bite, said bite contains a lethal venom. Over time this was exaggerated and mythologized as fire breath.
Are they sentient?: No, but they are quite intelligent for reptiles.
Can they be domesticated?: No, only tamed; and this taming is a very hard endeavor.
How do they fare against modern technology?: Not that well. In terms of war, in ancient times, a couple to a few good shots from a large, specially made ballista could knock one out of the sky. Gunpowder weaponry can comfortably do them in as well. Meanwhile, in terms of peace, since dragon riding is, as previously mentioned, something that requires intense training and great skill, flying/taking an airplane would naturally be easier. Airplanes are also both safer and much faster.
How does one go about not recognizing them if they so choose?: Since they are not core characters in modern RP and their major role in Eras canon was historical (Syrixia's founding), it's pretty easy to simply ignore them and/or dismiss their historical impact and any possible historical impacts that could be worldbuilt in the future as exaggerations and/or mythologizations.
What about the 'Imperial Dragons'?: Since I would like for them to be domesticated, they clearly cannot be the proposed dragons. Therefore, should this proposal be accepted, they will likely be null-canoned for the time being, as the matter of them isn't important to this specific proposal.

So a few things...
I- and a few Conclave members- discussed much of the above with Syr as a potential solution to the dragon question. It was never intended to be the solution to the dragon question. That is what this process will be fore. To determine what the solution will look like.

I just want to make it clear so people don't assume that I have endorsed this. If people have concerns they should feel free to raise them without fear of running afoul of Moderation. Or Conclave.

Scaled Dragons (draco squamata), Furred Dragons (draco vellus), possibly others (can be worldbuilt in the future)
...
Since I would like for them to be domesticated, they clearly cannot be DPDs. Therefore, should this proposal be accepted, they will likely either be null-canoned or be members of a future to-be-worldbuilt dragon species that is more easily domesticatable.

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On this point...
This is a proposal for a specific kind of dragon that involves Syrixian canon. This is not a proposal for dragons in Eras as a whole, nor would I like it become a discussion about that. Let's keep the discussion focused on the task at hand.

Prydania:

This is a proposal for a specific kind of dragon that involves Syrixian canon. This is not a proposal for dragons in Eras as a whole, nor would I like it become a discussion about that. Let's keep the discussion focused on the task at hand.

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@Prydania Thank you for the clarification, as this matter was a bit confusing for me during the initial discussion. Though I would like to propose dragons in general in the future, I have edited the OP to specifically propose Syrixian Tiger Dragons. The original proposal is spoilered below it for reference.

Hello! I hope everyone has had good holidays!

Syrixia:

Hello Conclave! Based on a recent conversation I had with some of you guys as well as Pry in regards to dragons, I've come to you with the requested species proposal. Questions and comments welcome, obviously. As well, I shall be referring to the dragons previously discussed in the aforementioned conversation as DPDs, which stands for, well, "dragons previously discussed".

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I don't think this is by any means settled already, and neither is this the only option. This might be a repetition for some, but for the sake of context for the community, allow me to preface my comments with a suggestion/counter-proposal that I had posted during our discussion. I believe another conclave member had implied this as an option as well.


That said, you chose to insist that you introduce dragons. My two main questions are:
1. Why?
2. What is your need for it now? As in, what is your RP need for it?

An ancillary question, which is unanswered in the proposal, is to how does the change in the characteristics of the dragons affect the canon already established for Syrixia?

Syrixia:

Origin: Part of the reptilian family; could have possibly evolved from pterosaurs
Average Lifespan: 80-150
Skin: Furred, tiger-like
Height: Probably around that of an African elephant, maybe a tiny bit bigger
Weight: Probably around 5,000 to 20,000 lbs.

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So this means that they are possibly descendant of dinosaurs? Given that there had been informal suggestions as to the resurrection of extinct big beasts such as dinosaurs, and these had been rejected, why should we consider having a big descendant of them in this setting? How had they survived?

Note that this is different from birds. Birds are smaller and not as big as the proposed dragons are.

Syrixia:

How do they breathe fire?:[/B] They don't. When the currently worldbuilt dragons bite, said bite contains a lethal venom. Over time this was exaggerated and mythologized as fire breath.

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How lethal is this venom? Can it be harnessed for other purposes? (A rhetorical question, since if your canon remains unchanged, it means that the lethal venom had been harnessed to defeat another country - and that alone makes it overpowered.)

Syrixia:

Are they sentient?: No, but their intelligence can vary based on type. The DPDs, for their part, are quite intelligent for reptiles.

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What do you mean by "intelligent"? "Intelligent" as in like dolphins or chimpanzees?

Syrixia:

Can they be domesticated?: No, only tamed; and this taming is a very hard endeavor.

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If I am to approve this, I will not even allow them to be tamed.

Syrixia:

How do they fare against modern technology?: Not that well. In terms of war, in ancient times, a couple to a few good shots from a large, specially made ballista could knock one out of the sky. Gunpowder weaponry can comfortably do them in as well. Meanwhile, in terms of peace, since dragon riding is, as previously mentioned, something that requires intense training and great skill, flying/taking an airplane would naturally be easier. Airplanes are also both safer and much faster.

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This is a good thing that you have mentioned this, but again, I think that proposed dragons is OP.

First: "In terms of war, in ancient times, a couple to a few good shots from a large, specially made ballista could knock one out of the sky." implies that dragons could be and was used for military purposes. This would make a country utilising them (at least in the ancient world) OP because you need 1) a specifically-made weapon, and 2) a "good shot" to take one down, all the while that dragon could 3) fly and 4) spew lethal venom.

Second, it could still interfere with the development of aviation. The proposal said that "Airplanes are also both safer and much faster" but keep in mind that airplane technology was not constant throughout history. There is a curve, and there was a time where airplane technology would be rudimentary and inferior to the proposed dragons. What would spur the development of aviation instead of people just trying to tame dragons? In the proposed dragons, 1.) they could fly, 2.) they could kill, 3.) they're hard to knock out, 4.) they had helped defeat a nation. All of it already made and existing. With aviation, early on one has to think of ways on 1.) how to make a heavier-than-air machine fly, 2.) one has to think of mechanisms on how they could kill (weaponry), 3.) one has to think of mechanisms to protect them. I think the proposed dragons are still going to interfere in this regard.

Syrixia:

How does one go about not recognizing them if they so choose?: Since they are not core characters in modern RP and the DPDs' major role in Eras canon was historical (Syrixia's founding), it's pretty easy to simply ignore them and/or dismiss their historical impact and any possible historical impacts that could be worldbuilt in the future as exaggerations and/or mythologizations. (emphasis mine)

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Does this imply that you are going to use the proposed dragons again?

If you are willing to attribute some of the things as exaggerations and/or mythologisations, why not go all the way and make the entire dragon thing as such? (ie. the other suggestion) Which would actually bring me back to the first two questions

I believe there is no need to put forward a proposal to formally canonize mythical beings such as "dragons." The status quo seems to work well enough to balance the magical and the reality that it satisfies the realism and mythicality co-existing in the Eras setting. While there is no need to ban mythical beings in RP, there is no also need to canonize them. It gives color to the, sometimes, monotonous portrayal of modern era in RP when it becomes too real for us RPers. Especially to the history of many RP nations. It is as you say: "It's pretty easy to simply ignore them and/or dismiss their historical impact and any possible historical impacts that could be worldbuilt in the future as exaggerations and/or mythologizations."

But to acknowledge them as part of the current canon might disrupt the modern-tech feel of the entire setting.

Perhaps I don't know much about "Nation Roleplay" since I've only ever been a character RPer from DnD. Knowing dragons there, even though we had involved it in steampunk themes, I'm pretty sure MT is not an adjective suited to themes involving creatures like "dragons."

Though I'm particularly curious as to what you mean by "intelligent." Also, if ever this proposal is accepted, should other people attempt to canonize their cryptids and mythical content?

Pikabo:

Also, if ever this proposal is accepted, should other people attempt to canonize their cryptids and mythical content?

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What Conclave may or may not do here is not an overt indication of what they may or may not do for similar topics in the future.

Is there a particular reason as to why this species, which as you note would likely be a descendant of dinosaurs, survive when almost all dinosaurs were wiped out or turned into radically different species.

That's my main theoretical sticking point right now, I might have more later.

Kyle:

Hello! I hope everyone has had good holidays!

I don't think this is by any means settled already, and neither is this the only option. This might be a repetition for some, but for the sake of context for the community, allow me to preface my comments with a suggestion/counter-proposal that I had posted during our discussion. I believe another conclave member had implied this as an option as well.

A viable option would be going to the "mytho-historical" route. Simply put, there were a series of historical events that either whose details were lost to time, were very much difficult to explain, or were simply fantasised or fancified, in such as way that they were attributed to a mythical/nonexistent being - dragons. It is kinda like Japan. Or dragons in Chinese culture. So it means dragons don't need to exist now in this setting.​

​

This is actually, as I have said, a more easier way because:​

1. There is no need to change the canon regarding the founding/unification of Syrixia. You can have it as fanciful or as fantastical as you want, because the dragon aspects were simply 'mythical', but the founding/unification of Syrixia did indeed happen. This does, however, change the canon, because it says that the events I currently have set up are not the actual historical events; thereby necessitating me to worldbuild said historical events. I prefer the events as they currently stand, and as I mentioned in the initial discussion, I don't think the Empire would have realistically unified otherwise.​

2. There is no need for a new species introduction in this setting I feel as if this is a matter of opinion.​

3. There is no need for other RPers to accommodate or try to ignore a large species that is being introduced. See above.​

That said, you chose to insist that you introduce dragons. My two main questions are:
1. Why? As mentioned above, they're vital to the history of my nation's founding.
2. What is your need for it now? As in, what is your RP need for it? There isn't any urgent RP need for it; if there was I would have made this proposal on my own accord. However, I was summoned and asked to discuss the matter, and then to make a formal Conclave proposal.

An ancillary question, which is unanswered in the proposal, is to how does the change in the characteristics of the dragons affect the canon already established for Syrixia? None. I had previously mused that the only change would be that the final battle of the war of unification would no longer result in the last unconquered city being burned, but it's not very hard for humans to light a flame

So this means that they are possibly descendant of dinosaurs? Given that there had been informal suggestions as to the resurrection of extinct big beasts such as dinosaurs, and these had been rejected, why should we consider having a big descendant of them in this setting? How had they survived? Note that this is different from birds. Birds are smaller and not as big as the proposed dragons are. In response to both you and Iraelia on this matter, the dinosaur idea was one I had on the spot to fill a hole that was not covered by the initial discussion. If Conclave finds this objectionable I'm happy to discuss other possible evolutionary origins.

How lethal is this venom? Can it be harnessed for other purposes? (A rhetorical question, since if your canon remains unchanged, it means that the lethal venom had been harnessed to defeat another country - and that alone makes it overpowered.) How, exactly? It's not something that can be spewed like fire breath. I specifically stated that the dragon has to bite.

What do you mean by "intelligent"? "Intelligent" as in like dolphins or chimpanzees? Yes - by no means sentient like humans.

If I am to approve this, I will not even allow them to be tamed. This is a good thing that you have mentioned this, but again, I think that proposed dragons is OP. First: "In terms of war, in ancient times, a couple to a few good shots from a large, specially made ballista could knock one out of the sky." implies that dragons could be and was used for military purposes. This would make a country utilising them (at least in the ancient world) OP because you need 1) a specifically-made weapon, and 2) a "good shot" to take one down, all the while that dragon could 3) fly and 4) spew lethal venom. Again, the venom is not something that is spewed. As for their general military use, it has long been established in my canon that after the war of unification, they were never again used for military purposes. When they were sentient, this was explained by a pact between the Empire and the clan of dragons that stated as such. I remember asking for suggestions on how to explain this with non-sentient dragons, but I don't know if this was ever concretely discussed as I couldn't find records of that topic in the logs provided to me that helped put this proposal together. However, I also remember proposing that the Empire could have banned their military use, with the justification being in order to prevent any potential rabblerousers from turning them on the Imperial House.

Second, it could still interfere with the development of aviation. The proposal said that "Airplanes are also both safer and much faster" but keep in mind that airplane technology was not constant throughout history. There is a curve, and there was a time where airplane technology would be rudimentary and inferior to the proposed dragons. What would spur the development of aviation instead of people just trying to tame dragons? In the proposed dragons, 1.) they could fly, 2.) they could kill, 3.) they're hard to knock out, 4.) they had helped defeat a nation. All of it already made and existing. With aviation, early on one has to think of ways on 1.) how to make a heavier-than-air machine fly, 2.) one has to think of mechanisms on how they could kill (weaponry), 3.) one has to think of mechanisms to protect them. I think the proposed dragons are still going to interfere in this regard. I disagree. As mentioned previously, taming the dragons would be very hard, and dragon riding would be a very hard skill to learn and master on top of that. It would be, in my view, much more convenient to build a 'mechanical dragon', so to speak, that works exactly to human specifications and is not an animal that must be tamed. As well, as mentioned above, dragons would not have been in use for a long time, especially not if their use was banned, so they probably wouldn't have even come up in serious thought.

Does this imply that you are going to use the proposed dragons again? No. I'm referring to additional impacts of the already-existing actions that I may think up in the future.

If you are willing to attribute some of the things as exaggerations and/or mythologisations, why not go all the way and make the entire dragon thing as such? (ie. the other suggestion) Which would actually bring me back to the first two questions You could. I've never said you can't. What I have said is that I would prefer not to, and that I don't think the mytho-historical route is inherently easier.

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Pikabo:

I believe there is no need to put forward a proposal to formally canonize mythical beings such as "dragons." The status quo seems to work well enough to balance the magical and the reality that it satisfies the realism and mythicality co-existing in the Eras setting. While there is no need to ban mythical beings in RP, there is no also need to canonize them. It gives color to the, sometimes, monotonous portrayal of modern era in RP when it becomes too real for us RPers. Especially to the history of many RP nations. It is as you say: "It's pretty easy to simply ignore them and/or dismiss their historical impact and any possible historical impacts that could be worldbuilt in the future as exaggerations and/or mythologizations." But to acknowledge them as part of the current canon might disrupt the modern-tech feel of the entire setting. I agree. I think, in contrast to both my own proposal and Kyle's counter-proposal, the status quo is the best route to approach the matter from. The reason I have made this proposal is because I was summoned to have the aforementioned initial discussion, and then eventually asked to make this proposal. It's not my place to speculate on the Mod Team's intentions for doing so, so I will not do so, but I have every intention of complying with their wishes.

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This is a very good proposal that conclave should endorse and adopt. It balances things quite well and is a better solution than forcing someone to make something they've worldbuilt mythological.

Pikabo:

I believe there is no need to put forward a proposal to formally canonize mythical beings such as "dragons." The status quo seems to work well enough to balance the magical and the reality that it satisfies the realism and mythicality co-existing in the Eras setting. While there is no need to ban mythical beings in RP, there is no also need to canonize them. It gives color to the, sometimes, monotonous portrayal of modern era in RP when it becomes too real for us RPers. Especially to the history of many RP nations. It is as you say: "It's pretty easy to simply ignore them and/or dismiss their historical impact and any possible historical impacts that could be worldbuilt in the future as exaggerations and/or mythologizations."

But to acknowledge them as part of the current canon might disrupt the modern-tech feel of the entire setting.

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Just as a note - the current status quo is that dragons are canon, in a much more disruptive way to the modern-tech feel of the entire setting.

Kyle:

If I am to approve this, I will not even allow them to be tamed.

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There was ample opportunity to bring this particular point up during discussions which were based on several non-negotiable conditions put down by Prydania, including one in which it was stated that "Individual dragons could be tamed, but domestication as a process is a no-go. ". Why the change now?

St George:

It balances things quite well and is a better solution than forcing someone to make something they've worldbuilt mythological.

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I would rather differ, since most of the worldbuilding was done by a former RPer who is unfortunately not with us anymore. This proposal is necessitated by the fact that the aforementioned country and claim is no longer extant in canon, and so there is a need for the sole user of the species to worldbuild a background for it.

St George:

There was ample opportunity to bring this particular point up during discussions which were based on several non-negotiable conditions put down by Prydania, including one in which it was stated that "Individual dragons could be tamed, but domestication as a process is a no-go. ". Why the change now?

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It is a misconception that this, or any aspect of the proposal, had been already agreed to and approved. It is not. From my understanding, what @Prydania stated were merely red lines, boundaries, and limits to which the proposal should be confined to. It doesn't mean it has to be taken to the limit.

2. There is no need for a new species introduction in this setting I feel as if this is a matter of opinion.
3. There is no need for other RPers to accommodate or try to ignore a large species that is being introduced. See above.

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I don't think it's a matter of opinion, because if the dragons are mythological, then there is no need for a new species introduction to the setting, and thus no need for people to accommodate something that is not extant. I think you might be misunderstanding the context of the statement.

1. Why? As mentioned above, they're vital to the history of my nation's founding.
2. What is your need for it now? As in, what is your RP need for it? There isn't any urgent RP need for it; if there was I would have made this proposal on my own accord. However, I was summoned and asked to discuss the matter, and then to make a formal Conclave proposal.

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Allow me to clarify my questions
When I asked "Why?" it meant that "Why did you chose this route instead of going by an alternative one?"
And the second question, "Why do you need them to be extant in this setting? What is your foreseeable use for it?"

How lethal is this venom? Can it be harnessed for other purposes? (A rhetorical question, since if your canon remains unchanged, it means that the lethal venom had been harnessed to defeat another country - and that alone makes it overpowered.) How, exactly? It's not something that can be spewed like fire breath. I specifically stated that the dragon has to bite.

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Spewed or bitten, it doesn't really change the fact that it was lethal and it was harnessed for military purposes.

As for their general military use, it has long been established in my canon that after the war of unification, they were never again used for military purposes. When they were sentient, this was explained by a pact between the Empire and the clan of dragons that stated as such. I remember asking for suggestions on how to explain this with non-sentient dragons, but I don't know if this was ever concretely discussed as I couldn't find records of that topic in the logs provided to me that helped put this proposal together. However, I also remember proposing that the Empire could have banned their military use, with the justification being in order to prevent any potential rabblerousers from turning them on the Imperial House.

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For me, the proposal that "We have these, but we banned their use" still has a potential for unbalancing and OPness. It's like saying "oh, we have this nice weapon, but we're not going to use them." What is to prevent the country from removing that ban?

I disagree. As mentioned previously, taming the dragons would be very hard, and dragon riding would be a very hard skill to learn and master on top of that. It would be, in my view, much more convenient to build a 'mechanical dragon', so to speak, that works exactly to human specifications and is not an animal that must be tamed. As well, as mentioned above, dragons would not have been in use for a long time, especially not if their use was banned, so they probably wouldn't have even come up in serious thought.

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And yet dragon taming and dragon riding were done. "Very hard" (vague term), but it was feasible, and it was done in an ancient period, enough to be able to win a war. Like I said, there would be an early period of aviation wherein dragon riding would be more economical/easier than trying to solve all the issues about mechanical flying machines. It could retard/delay/abort the development of aviation.

If you are willing to attribute some of the things as exaggerations and/or mythologisations, why not go all the way and make the entire dragon thing as such? (ie. the other suggestion) Which would actually bring me back to the first two questions You could. I've never said you can't. What I have said is that I would prefer not to, and that I don't think the mytho-historical route is inherently easier.

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I still hold that the mytho-historical route is easier. Because, to be frank, if that was the action taken, we wouldn't need to have this discussion or proposal It would satisfy the concerns of people who have reservations about dragons and allow you to have as much fantabulous things about your history.

That said, I have another embryonic suggestion in mind that I will ruminate on when I wake up, if you're still willing to consider suggestions

Kyle:

It is a misconception that this, or any aspect of the proposal, had been already agreed to and approved. It is not. From my understanding, what @Prydania stated were merely red lines, boundaries, and limits to which the proposal should be confined to. It doesn't mean it has to be taken to the limit.

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What Prydania stated was the basis for which dragons would be allowed if Conclave doesn't go the mythological route. It was the basis under which discussions took place in early December both with Syrixia and in the Conclave internally, and it was the basis that Prydania instructed Conclave to proceed under.

Shifting that now is not only unfair to Syrixia, who clearly proceeded under the correct impression that this was allowed and part of the proposal, it's undermining the entire process and trust in the conclave.

I would like to chip in.

Militarily, I do not see the necessity of dragons. Syrixia is about the size of England, which was conquered without elephants by the Romans, and William the Conqueror. You may think that this is an apples to oranges comparison— fine. The various Indian Empires conquered absolutely gigantic territories compared to England both population and land area wise. Japan was unified without dragons, (though with help from gunpowder). The Islamic Conquest of Spain went on without dragons, and the list goes on.
To me, at least, it seems that there is not a need as you have indicated but rather a want. This raises the question, of why do you want dragons.
If the answer is because you want to make it cooler, then dragons in my view are completely unnecessary. There are plenty of ways to make battles cool, and you just have to look to history. There is just no way, in my eyes that Syrixia could not have been conquered without dragons.

However, if you want to still desperately have dragons, then there is a solution to that: Kyle’s proposal to have them be mythological beings, meaning you can still worldbuild the badass battles, and you wouldn’t even have to remove them spewing fire, since they wouldn’t be real.

The question of why you need dragons needs to be answered, before I can even begin, at least personally, to consider supporting this proposal, or any proposal about dragons in the future.

To peek out of the military world:
My belief (whatever it may be worth) is that dragons should be purely Mythological.
If they actually exist, it gives Syrixia an advantage. Let’s consider transportation: a message could be sent from the Syrixian mainland to any given point far faster via dragon. This could give Syrixia an advantage in wars, and in peacetime, as the fast travel of messages allows quick orders to be sent. This would technically not be using them in combat. In peacetime it allows the government to always be kept up to date on events via rapid mail.
Additionally I share Kyle’s concerns, since there would surely be a trained cadre of dragon fliers around the time of flying technology being rudimentary. Why wouldn’t they kill this rival in the crib?

St George:

What Prydania stated was the basis for which dragons would be allowed if Conclave doesn't go the mythological route. It was the basis under which discussions took place in early December both with Syrixia and in the Conclave internally, and it was the basis that Prydania instructed Conclave to proceed under.

Shifting that now is not only unfair to Syrixia, who clearly proceeded under the correct impression that this was allowed and part of the proposal, it's undermining the entire process and trust in the conclave.

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I am surprised you think that I am shifting discussions, considering that you have access to the discussion logs. The mythological route is, and remains to be, an option on the table. It was not removed off the table - it was only the proponent that rejected that route. Hence the proponent was requested to make a proposal because the route he chose to take (that dragons are extant) necessitates a proposal. The insinuations/perception that the proposal had been accepted in principle or had already been decided on, I think is incorrect.

I would instead wait for clarification from @Prydania before saying that we are suddenly shifting the discussion, that the mythological route had been rejected, or that the proposal had been accepted/decided on.

Kyle:

I am surprised you think that I am shifting discussions, considering that you have access to the discussion logs. The mythological route is, and remains to be, an option on the table. It was not removed off the table - it was only the proponent that rejected that route. Hence the proponent was requested to make a proposal because the route he chose to take (that dragons are extant) necessitates a proposal. The insinuations/perception that the proposal had been accepted in principle or had already been decided on, I think is incorrect.

I would instead wait for clarification from @Prydania before saying that we are suddenly shifting the discussion, that the mythological route had been rejected, or that the proposal had been accepted/decided on.

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I think you need to re-read my post because you are under the mistaken impression that my complaint is that you're bringing up the mythological route. It is not.

My complaint is that you are saying dragons would not be tamable despite that being part of what formed the basis for dragons being allowed if Conclave did not go the mythological route.

I did not say that shifting discussion to the mythological route was happening, or would be unfair to anyone.

St George:

Just as a note - the current status quo is that dragons are canon, in a much more disruptive way to the modern-tech feel of the entire setting.

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I feel like this needs context-

Dragons were never "approved" by the Conclave.
Darc wanted dragons in Eras for Darcania. He created a well-worldbuilt clan system and history for them that sort of appeased enough people at the time not make a fuss over it.
I also fully believe that this was aided by Darc not RPing all that much- it was very easy to ignore.

He never submitted his proposal to Conclave and Conclave never said yay or nay on the matter. He just did it, and people went along with it.

I say all of this (aside from giving context) because the situation of "dragons are canon" would, in most cases, not be true after Darc left. Had he never lent his dragons outward then all of his dragon history and lore would have faded away when he left Eras. It would be a non-issue.

Problem was he did lend them out- to Syrixia. Syrixia wanted them to aid in the conquest of the Home Islands during the Empire's founding. Darc agreed under a very specific set of circumstances.

When Darc left his dragon lore and history (which was never approved by Conclave) faded away but this little bit stuck around in Syrixia.

So when we say "dragons are canon" we need to understand that yes they are but also they're canon for a very specific set of circumstances that doesn't preclude re-evaluating the whole thing.

St George:

My complaint is that you are saying dragons would not be tamable despite that being part of what formed the basis for dragons being allowed if Conclave did not go the mythological route.

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1. The pronouns I used is I, not we. I did not purport to speak on behalf of the Conclave. I believe I am free to voice my own individual opinions and suggestions.
2. Again, domesticatability and tamability were neither approved nor allowed in-principle if the other route was taken. It was merely discussed, and a boundary set on the limits on what might be allowable in a proposal. My understanding was what happened a few weeks back was simply a brainstorming session. If everything was decided there, then why are we having this discussion? The proponent said that they could be tamed, I expressed my opinion that I would not be able to support that. It is up to the proponent to make adjustments or not.

I feel like the Pope after reading this. Infallibility seems nice.

To the point-
My last post in this thread gives context to all of this "Pry said this..." stuff.
Dragons were an untended to loose end born from the inclusion of a fantasy species that never got Conclave approval in the first place.

So in an attempt to deal with that I- and members of the Conclave- spoke to Syr in Dispute Resolution to figure out ways to resolve this niggling bit of leftover canon.

I truly apologize to @Syrixia if the discussion that bore out the meat and bones of this proposal came off as something definitive. I never intended it to be, and I take full responsibility for not clarifying to him sooner.

That discussion was meant to suggest potential ways forward. How dragons could work in Eras, not how they will work in Eras.
At the end of the day whatever Syr wanted was going to have to be written up as a proposal. FFS Goy had to write a proposal for trains. I had to write a proposal for chess. Damn skippy dragons- if Conclave was going to approve them- needed a proposal.

So the discussions myself and Conclave had with Syr were merely to brainstorm ideas. It was never meant as my official endorsement of what I supported. Again, I apologize to Syr for failing to clarify that.

It is also my hope that we can resolve this one way or another without ill will. Let us consider the situation. Dragons were never approved- they just sort of happened- and now we're finally having that discussion.
People have different opinions on it. People have different RP preferences.
Let's try to assume everyone is arguing in good faith
There's no reason this of all topics should become so contentious.

Prydania:

I feel like this needs context-

Dragons were never "approved" by the Conclave.
Darc wanted dragons in Eras for Darcania. He created a well-worldbuilt clan system and history for them that sort of appeased enough people at the time not make a fuss over it.
I also fully believe that this was aided by Darc not RPing all that much- it was very easy to ignore.

He never submitted his proposal to Conclave and Conclave never said yay or nay on the matter. He just did it, and people went along with it.

I say all of this (aside from giving context) because the situation of "dragons are canon" would, in most cases, not be true after Darc left. Had he never lent his dragons outward then all of his dragon history and lore would have faded away when he left Eras. It would be a non-issue.

Problem was he did lend them out- to Syrixia. Syrixia wanted them to aid in the conquest of the Home Islands during the Empire's founding. Darc agreed under a very specific set of circumstances.

When Darc left his dragon lore and history (which was never approved by Conclave) faded away but this little bit stuck around in Syrixia.

So when we say "dragons are canon" we need to understand that yes they are but also they're canon for a very specific set of circumstances that doesn't preclude re-evaluating the whole thing.

Click to expand...

Prydania:

I feel like the Pope after reading this. Infallibility seems nice.

To the point-
My last post in this thread gives context to all of this "Pry said this..." stuff.
Dragons were an untended to loose end born from the inclusion of a fantasy species that never got Conclave approval in the first place.

So in an attempt to deal with that I- and members of the Conclave- spoke to Syr in Dispute Resolution to figure out ways to resolve this niggling bit of leftover canon.

I truly apologize to @Syrixia if the discussion that bore out the meat and bones of this proposal came off as something definitive. I never intended it to be, and I take full responsibility for not clarifying to him sooner.

That discussion was meant to suggest potential ways forward. How dragons could work in Eras, not how they will work in Eras.
At the end of the day whatever Syr wanted was going to have to be written up as a proposal. FFS Goy had to write a proposal for trains. I had to write a proposal for chess. Damn skippy dragons- if Conclave was going to approve them- needed a proposal.

So the discussions myself and Conclave had with Syr were merely to brainstorm ideas. It was never meant as my official endorsement of what I supported. Again, I apologize to Syr for failing to clarify that.

It is also my hope that we can resolve this one way or another without ill will. Let us consider the situation. Dragons were never approved- they just sort of happened- and now we're finally having that discussion.
People have different opinions on it. People have different RP preferences.
Let's try to assume everyone is arguing in good faith
There's no reason this of all topics should become so contentious.

Click to expand...

Without wanting to go all "do not cite the deep magic to me, witch" - I'm well aware of how dragons came to be in Eras. Darcania never submitted them to the Conclave because the Conclave did not exist at the time, and when it did exist it was one of a number of things grandfathered in, with mod approval. Dragons never required Conclave approval before now, nor were they subject to it.

My dispute with Kyle stems entirely from the fact that he's expressing a highly restrictive view here that goes beyond the choice you yourself laid out to Conclave in early December, which was between the mythological route, or a proposal that included tamable dragons, and it's entirely unfortunate that he's seeking to shift away from that.

Regardless, I've realised this is taking away from the topic of this thread, and so I'll withdraw.

St George:

My dispute with Kyle stems entirely from the fact that he's expressing a highly restrictive view here that goes beyond the choice you yourself laid out to Conclave in early December, which was between the mythological route, or a proposal that included tamable dragons, and it's entirely unfortunate that he's seeking to shift away from that.

Click to expand...

Well on a certain level I was just responding to the "Pry said X" stuff. I wish I had the influence to just dictate stuff in Eras. This whole conversation would have been over quicker.

Anyway I know you withdrew MJ...and I'm not looking to reignite anything.
I just want to respond to the whole "taming" thing.

The discussions about taming arose when Syr wanted to ask about domestication.
This was a non-starter for me. Animals need very specific traits to be successfully domesticated. Dragons would NOT be able to be domesticated if they were real and were anything like how they are depicted in fantasy literature and mythology. They wouldn't have the necessary traits.

So I put my foot down on domestication. No, not happening. That led to taming, which is a different thing all together. You can tame a single zebra, for example, but you can't domesticate zebras as a species. They don't have the right traits (just like IRL dragons wouldn't).

My no-negotiation positions included "no domestication" but I was open to "taming."
That doesn't mean I promised Syr taming, or that I said taming had to be accepted. I just said that I wouldn't shoot it down like I would domestication.

At the end of the day individual Conclavers- or the Conclave as a whole- are allowed to poke and prod and say "I/We don't like this or that."

I just want to put that all out because there seems to be a lot of emphasis put on what I said.
I had very specific "non-negotiable" points like "not sapient" and "no domesticating them."
Everything else were ideas tossed around for how things could work. Not a list of promises or my endorsement for what I approved of or wanted.

@Prydania https://discord.com/channels/275355251459227648/317488616660271104/784663515783757824
"Hard to tame" was included in your list of stuff for what qualifies as 'realistic dragons' - along with "no fire" and "easy to kill with firearms".

And you also included that individual dragons could be tamed in your list of non-negotiable terms.

I'm typing this through a migraine so bear with me. But I am also in favor of this proposal and encourage the conclave to accept. I think this is a more than fair reduction the sentient, society having dragons of Darcania and Notboss back in the day. As for how they survived as dino descendants I really don't think that matters...like that's as simple as saying the Syrixian Islands experienced the extinction differently...As an aside I don't see this as any different than the Aed Cane, Dubal Ne or Vampires and Werewolves. If they stay restricted to certain canons and have the ability to be ignored by community members than I personally don't see the issue.

St George:

@Prydania https://discord.com/channels/275355251459227648/317488616660271104/784663515783757824
"Hard to tame" was included in your list of stuff for what qualifies as 'realistic dragons' - along with "no fire" and "easy to kill with firearms".

And you also included that individual dragons could be tamed in your list of non-negotiable terms.

Click to expand...

Yes, that was born out of discussions I- and Conclave members- had with Syr. It was meant to be discussion of ideas- not a finalized settlement.

As I said...

"I would also like everyone on Conclave to consider some additional questions for Syr, or maybe even different approaches from the two above. We can then run those by him before you all make a final judgement."

The "non negotiable" stuff was stuff that under no circumstances was to be considered.
It was not a set of promises that could not be scaled down from. Conclave members- as individuals or as a group- always had the right to ask/suggest/propose additions or subtractions.

Since two mods have spoken up...I figure I will since everything up until now has been me clarifying my past statements (I'm not blaming anyone for that- the fault is with me for not being clear).

Anyway...

Dragons are...not something I personally want, but it goes beyond dragons.

Eras has fantasy elements. Always has. And this isn't an attack on those elements- I'd be quite the hypocrite if this was that.
With that said...Eras is not high fantasy. I may not have been here when Eras launched, but I have been here for over three years, and this was pretty Modern Tech-y when I got here. With fantasy elements here and there.

Eras has a reputation- among TNP RP and among some circles beyond it- as being a place where more "realistic" worldbuilding happens.
I know we sometimes laugh about that due to the fantasy elements that are present- but the sentiment is accurate.
The amount of realistic worldbuilding that goes on in Eras is frankly inspiring to me as a long time RPer. @Goyanes @Andrenne @Sil Dorsett @Kyle @Nogori @Loz @North Timistania @St George @Syrixia among so many more, have made me want to worldbuild Prydania in a modern tech sense more than I ever would have thought to due to the quality of their work.

Eras has this reputation- and it's a good one. I don't want to lose it. I know that we don't like to talk ill of other TNP settings but I just as SR should not aspire to be Eras, Eras should not aspire to be SR. I don't want "anything crazy can happen" if enough Conclavers think it's "cool."

I like the fantasy stuff I've done in FtKtV. I like the fantasy stuff others- all of whom can see this thread- have done. This isn't attack on those elements.
I like Eras' MT nature and the reputation this community has garnered too though. I'm not embarrassed when people say "Eras is more realistic." I'm proud. Of my own work, but more so of the worldbuilding our community members engage in.
And I don't want to cross a threshold that would lessen either the MT nature of the setting or the reputation the community has.

So my $0.02? I don't want dragons.

With that said...

I am seemingly incapable of actually stating my preferences without offering a compromise.

So I'd like to run this by both Conclave and the general RP population for consideration.

Dragons existed as flesh and blood creatures but are currently extinct.

Dragons existed, and were integral to the unification of the Syrixian Empire, but have over the course of the preceding ~2000 years have gone extinct.

I really feel like this addresses EVERYONE's needs here.
Syrxia'a unification- including dragons- are not mythical. They were real, they happened. We have the remains from specimens to prove it. Imagine a fully realized dragon skeleton in Pataliputra's natural history museum.

Nothing about Syrixia's canon needs to be rewritten or recast as "just mythology."

I am also seeing that there is a concern from community members about how dragons would impact Eras' present. This compromise proposal of mine is, I feel, a good way to address their concerns as well.
Dragons being extinct means that we don't need to worry about how they impact the development of modern technology, nor do we need to worry about them making Syrixia "OP" in the modern sense. It also means we don't need to re-litigate this in the future- anyone who wants dragons as part of their national identity has the roadmap handy- they were real, but went extinct. Done and done.
Finally having dragons that were real but died off in the past means we don't need to worry about the affects of megafauna in the modern Eras setting.

Finally I believe that this could be a great way for Syr to give some more character to past historical figures. I know Andy and myself have separate characters who each have the title "the last Viking." Meant as an honorific to the last adherent to a way of life that had passed on.
This option would allow for Syr to worldbuild the last Syrixian emperors who were able to tame and ride dragons. He'd also be able to have the benefits of mythology- really romanticizing past events- but with the added bonus of the dragons actually being real beings and the Syrixians who tamed and rode them being real people whose lost art is widely celebrated.

This is something that I feel takes everyone's key desires and concerns into account. And I hope everyone here at least considers it.

Prydania:

I'd like to run this by both Conclave and the general RP population for consideration.

Dragons existed as flesh and blood creatures but are currently extinct.

Dragons existed, and were integral to the unification of the Syrixian Empire, but have over the course of the preceding ~2000 years have gone extinct.

I really feel like this addresses EVERYONE's needs here.
Syrxia'a unification- including dragons- are not mythical. They were real, they happened. We have the remains from specimens to prove it. Imagine a fully realized dragon skeleton in Pataliputra's natural history museum.

Nothing about Syrixia's canon needs to be rewritten or recast as "just mythology."

I am also seeing that there is a concern from community members about how dragons would impact Eras' present. This compromise proposal of mine is, I feel, a good way to address their concerns as well.
Dragons being extinct means that we don't need to worry about how they impact the development of modern technology, nor do we need to worry about them making Syrixia "OP" in the modern sense. It also means we don't need to re-litigate this in the future- anyone who wants dragons as part of their national identity has the roadmap handy- they were real, but went extinct. Done and done.
Finally having dragons that were real but died off in the past means we don't need to worry about the affects of megafauna in the modern Eras setting.

Finally I believe that this could be a great way for Syr to give some more character to past historical figures. I know Andy and myself have separate characters who each have the title "the last Viking." Meant as an honorific to the last adherent to a way of life that had passed on.
This option would allow for Syr to worldbuild the last Syrixian emperors who were able to tame and ride dragons. He'd also be able to have the benefits of mythology- really romanticizing past events- but with the added bonus of the dragons actually being real beings and the Syrixians who tamed and rode them being real people whose lost art is widely celebrated.

This is something that I feel takes everyone's key desires and concerns into account. And I hope everyone here at least considers it.

Click to expand...

I know exactly what this is inspired by and I really like it.

So as per discussed on the Discord and here. The conclave has voted and agreed to the existence of the Syrixian Tiger Dragon within Syrxian history prior and during Syrixian unification. They, however soon after said unification, went extinct due to many reasons. This led to these dragons fading into the historical mythos of the nation. The reasons for extinction are up to Syrixia the player. Many suggestions have been given. He may decide as he wishes.

Sincerely,

Mr. Yalkan

CLARIFICATION:
“Soon after” is defined as up to a year after the unification.

Sincerely,
Predice