Campaign to End state controlled church/religion

Kenaniahistan

Kenaniahistan

Registered
TNP Nation
Kenaniahistan
Anti state church/religion campaign
1. Purpose.
This campaign is to address grievances of citizens and residents of The North Pacific in regards to the state religion of Flemingovianism.
2. The legal code of The North Pacific on Religious Observance states as follows.

"Section 9.4: Religious Observance
15. Flemingovianism shall be adopted as the religion and church of The North Pacific.
16. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
17. The Flemingovian religion shall receive no financial or tax advantages through being the religion of The North Pacific.
18. Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in the Flemingovian religion.
20. Flemingovian officials may participate, as invited by the delegate, at all state functions."

3. List of grievances.
3.1: It is the opinion of the undersigned nations that the government of The North Pacific has no place instituting a state controlled religion.
3.2: In section 9.4:16 "All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed." However this is not possible given the fact that the state has mandated in section 9.4:18 "Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause." This is a huge burden on many nations' economies and businesses and is unfair to nations who believe in the free market vs. state owned industry.
3.3: 9.4:18 also violates the civil rights of other religions by mandating the celebration of religious holidays. In the bible of Flemingovian there are multiple references to words deemed inappropriate to use by some other religions. Causing citizens of The North Pacific to be forced to accept a celebration to something that goes against their own religious beliefs.
3.4: In section 9.4:20 "Flemingovian officials may participate, as invited by the delegate, at all state functions." Gives the church of Flemingovian an overly inflated position of power to the highest offices of our government compared to other religions which is a potential violation of 9.4:19 "No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in the Flemingovian religion."
3.5 Noting that Flemingovianism is a very small percentage of the religions practiced within the region with most nations that practice this religion being in a place of power. This appears to be a potential violation of 9.4:19.
4. Goal of this campaign.
We the undersigned nations wish to have Section 9.4: of the The North Pacific Legal code removed thru the courts or by a vote. Understanding that this has been to vote many times we wish to gather support and educate nations on what we feel is a gross miscarriage of state authority.
Author: Kenaniahistan

Signatories:
Kenaniahistan, Santamar, Cowbridge

RP Mod Note: This isn't related to roleplaying. This looks like more of a Regional Assembly thing, so I've moved it there.
-Sil Dorsett, RP Mod
 
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Apologies to the Regional Assembly for using my RP Moderator powers to move this post here, but this had nothing to do with roleplaying. This appears to be an attempt to delete Section 9.4 of the Legal Code and I felt it was better for the Regional Assembly to discuss it.
 
Thanks for the move Sil.

And as for the campaign, well, we're just a frivolous recall away from getting Regional Assembly bingo this week aren't we?
 
If you want to have this part of the Legal Code struck down by the Courts, might I suggest heading over there?

The Court is quite bored at the moment so they'll appreciate it. :P
 
Well, they did say "or by a vote", so we could just as easily do it here if we wanted. The next step is for the proposer to actually turn it into a Bill.
 
If possible I'd like to have a discussion on exactly to put this forward as either. Based on previous discussions of this topic the argument for keeping a state religion is primarily because it's part of the history of the TMP. However in a modern government I seen no reason why religion should have anything to do with government.
 
Well, yes, it is part of history, but I think the more important thing to think about is the actual impact of both leaving it in versus taking it out. The answer to both is actually... "Nothing". The section doesn't have any real impact on the day-to-day business of The North Pacific. It's more of a relic left as recognition of one's contributions to the region.
 
Down with Flemingovianism! What we need is a real, living god. Hail McMasterdonia! Hail McMasterdonianism!
 
Been tried before. Boring. Against. Et al. Not sure why I even posted here lol
 
Y'know, iirc, I argued against the institution of Flemingovianism when the idea first came up. [Edit: or not. If so, I can't find the posts now. Maybe in IRC. At any rate, I felt strongly about it.] I didn't like the thought either. I've since changed my mind. The point of Flemingovianism is satire. Not unlike many aspects of the game. The last forum member that I'm aware of that was formally accepted into the religion by Flem was McMasterdonia. I've seen a couple of nations with Flemingovianism listed as their nation's religion and that's it. My nation neither celebrates it or even takes a day off unless I'm not around when it happens. Probably I don't notice or am CTEed at the time. This last might technically be termed "a day off". ;) So far as I'm aware no one has their position as a result of this religion.
I like Flem and if he were to introduce this himself, I'd back it. But you, no.

Edited for clarity and punctuation and verification.
 
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Honestly, I see this as a great opportunity to quadruple down (without any subsequent triple or double down) and turn TNP into an Iron-Fist Theocracy.

Whos with me?
 
Sil Dorsett:
Apologies to the Regional Assembly for using my RP Moderator powers to move this post here, but this had nothing to do with roleplaying. This appears to be an attempt to delete Section 9.4 of the Legal Code and I felt it was better for the Regional Assembly to discuss it.
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I disagree. It is completely disconnected from reality and should be moved back to the RP subforum. *

*Opinion as a citizen, not an admin.
 
Syrixia:
Been tried before. Boring. Against. Et al. Not sure why I even posted here lol
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:agree:

I will vote against this if it proceeds.

These arguments have all been heard and made before. I would advise the author to seek out the previous proposals on this to see why it has failed.
 
I do not agree with this movement. This is basically an argument from secularism. The religion has no influence over the regional government and serves as an institutionalized part of the region's culture. I see no reason to remove it, and I even think it would be a detriment to do so.
 
Of course Wonderess is gonna say that. Rather than seizing on that one line, perhaps recognize that literally no one cares and that was the core of what Wonderess said.
 
Other nations as in literally two people, one who has never posted on the forum and another who's posted only thrice?

Sure.
 
This part of the legal code is under cultural declarations. It's a cultural relic has no impact on TNP whatsoever except culturally.
 
Rocketdog:
This part of the legal code is under cultural declarations. It's a cultural relic has no impact on TNP whatsoever except culturally.
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So is section 9.1: of the legal code however that has seen much debate and has been the subject of many court cases.
If my religious beliefs were to never swear allegiance to any other god then I could not become a citizen or ever hold public office.
 
Kenaniahistan:
So is section 9.1: of the legal code however that has seen much debate and has been the subject of many court cases.
If my religious beliefs were to never swear allegiance to any other god then I could not become a citizen or ever hold public office.
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There's nothing in the citizenship oath or the government official oath that requires you to swear allegiance to Flemingovia. And I'm confused as to what court cases there have been on that section of the Legal Code. Would you kindly point them out for me?
 
Gorundu:
There's nothing in the citizenship oath or the government official oath that requires you to swear allegiance to Flemingovia. And I'm confused as to what court cases there have been on that section of the Legal Code. Would you kindly point them out for me?
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I pledge loyalty to The North Pacific, obedience to her laws, and responsible action as a member of her society. I pledge to only register one nation to vote in The North Pacific. I pledge that no nation under my control will wage war against the North Pacific. I understand that if I break this oath I may permanently lose my voting privileges. In this manner, I petition the Speaker for citizenship in The North Pacific.

"Obedience to her laws", 9.4: is the law.

The argument I keep hearing is that that law doesn't matter. I was referring to 9.1: court cases with the coat of arms and the flag. That 9.1:-9.4: is a cultural relic and has no real impact.
 
Kenaniahistan:
The argument I keep hearing is that that law doesn't matter. I was referring to 9.1: court cases with the coat of arms and the flag. That 9.1:-9.4: is a cultural relic and has no real impact.
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That's exactly what it is though. When the law says spamming is a criminal offense, then by obeying the law you wouldn't spam. When the law says Flemingovianism is the official religion of TNP...what does that tell you to do? Nothing. The law doesn't say you have to adhere to Flemingovianism, it just states, as a matter of fact, that Flemingovianism is recognised as the official religion.
 
I mean... that part of the legal code isn’t contradicting the part of the bill of rights that grants you the freedom of religion. So eh, yeah... considering it doesn’t force you to do anything, it actually kind of is irrelevant.
 
Robespierre:
I mean... that part of the legal code isn’t contradicting the part of the bill of rights that grants you the freedom of religion. So eh, yeah... considering it doesn’t force you to do anything, it actually kind of is irrelevant.
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18. Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause.
 
Kenaniahistan:
18. Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause.
Click to expand...
To my knowledge, that's not a thing that happens. I’ve been here for over a year, and even if it were to happen there’s nothing that mandates that you observe it. It only recognizes it as official and says it’s observed regionally - not whom it’s observed by.
 
What Robes said, it's all cosmetics my dude. You're making this into a fat drama when it isn't lmao
 
Section 9.1 is effective in its entirety. We have gone after others for improper use of the flag.

Section 9.2 is cosmetic in its entirety, though we do routinely hold events to recognize these days.

Section 9.3 is cosmetic in its entirety, though we do routinely hold events to recognize these days.

Section 9.4 requires a breakdown...
15. Flemingovianism shall be adopted as the religion and church of The North Pacific.
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Cosmetic. No functional effect.
16. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
Click to expand...
Effective.
17. The Flemingovian religion shall receive no financial or tax advantages through being the religion of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...
Cosmetic. No functional effect.
18. Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause.
Click to expand...
Cosmetic. No functional effect.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in the Flemingovian religion.
Click to expand...
Effective. Please read this one closely to understand what it actually means. It means that Flemingovianism status in your nation cannot be used to determine whether you are eligible for office or not, thus rendering the status of Flemingovianism as the regional religion as cosmetic.
20. Flemingovian officials may participate, as invited by the delegate, at all state functions.
Click to expand...
Cosmetic. No functional effect.
 
Rather than counter the arguments made in this "campaign" (as others have already done), I'll attempt to address the logic behind the stated grievances directly, and hopefully dispel whatever uncertainty there may be behind their being brought up. A good place to start is in the modern legal stance on the outlined concerns regarding government and religious observance (specifically in the US, since that's what I'm most familiar with). While real-world legal precedent isn't directly applicable here, it does offer a useful insight into the thoughts of actual legal experts on the matter:
  1. In Bridenbaugh v. O’Bannon (7th Cir. 1999), the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a government may give employees a religious holiday as a paid vacation day, but only if it can provide a legitimate secular purpose for choosing a particular day. The case dealt specifically with an alleged violation of the Establishment Clause.
  2. In Ganulin v. United States (S.D. Ohio 1999), a federal district judge granted a motion to dismiss a case alleging that a law making Christmas day a legal public holiday violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The case was appealed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, which affirmed the district court’s decision in an unpublished decision and dismissed the lawsuit. It was then appealed to the Supreme Court, which denied certiorari in 2001, leaving in place the Sixth Circuit’s decision affirming the holiday’s constitutionality.
  3. In Granzeier v. Middleton (6th Cir. 1999), the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals held that closing a county’s courts and administrative offices on Good Friday did not violate the Constitution.
  4. In Koenick v. Felton (4th Cir. 1999), the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals also upheld a Good Friday holiday in Maryland.
  5. Supreme Court decisions on religion in public schools have stated that religious holidays may be observed in a secular manner.
  6. In Lynch v Donnelly (1984), the Supreme Court held that the City of Pawtucket, Rhode Island, could have a nativity scene on public property because it also displayed secular symbols, such as Santa’s house.
  7. In Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union (1989), the ACLU challenged two public sponsored holiday displays in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as state endorsement of religion. The Court held that not all religious celebrations on government property violated the establishment clause, only those that constitute an unmistakable endorsement of a particular religion/
The one key thread underpinning all of these disputes over a government observing national religious holidays is the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. The Establishment Clause reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
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What this means is that the US government cannot officially endorse any particular religion.

TNP does not have an Establishment Clause. Meaning, the government may endorse an official religion (Flemingovianism).

The Bill of rights states that "each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region."

The Legal Code states that "all nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed."

With this in mind, let's break down the concerns:
Kenaniahistan:
3.1: It is the opinion of the undersigned nations that the government of The North Pacific has no place instituting a state controlled religion.
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See if you can spot the issue with this.
Kenaniahistan:
3.2: In section 9.4:16 "All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed." However this is not possible given the fact that the state has mandated in section 9.4:18 "Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause." This is a huge burden on many nations' economies and businesses and is unfair to nations who believe in the free market vs. state owned industry.
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Does the national observation of Christmas day in the US curtail my ability to be Muslim? How does "the right to take a day off work" curtail freedom of religion or constitute "a huge burden on many nations' economies"? And how, exactly, is "unfair to nations who believe in the free market vs. state owned industry" in any way relevant whatsoever?
Kenaniahistan:
3.3: 9.4:18 also violates the civil rights of other religions by mandating the celebration of religious holidays. In the bible of Flemingovian there are multiple references to words deemed inappropriate to use by some other religions. Causing citizens of The North Pacific to be forced to accept a celebration to something that goes against their own religious beliefs.
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Except... it doesn't mandate "the celebration of religious holidays." It declares that they will be observed. If you don't want to celebrate a given holiday, nothing in the Legal Code requires you to. See the SCOTUS cases above.
Kenaniahistan:
3.4: In section 9.4:20 "Flemingovian officials may participate, as invited by the delegate, at all state functions." Gives the church of Flemingovian an overly inflated position of power to the highest offices of our government compared to other religions which is a potential violation of 9.4:19 "No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in the Flemingovian religion."
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Read carefully. As @Sil Dorsett stated, allowing religious officials to be "invited by the delegate" does not have anything to do with giving "the church of Flemingovian an overly inflated position of power." This is purely cosmetic.
Kenaniahistan:
3.5 Noting that Flemingovianism is a very small percentage of the religions practiced within the region with most nations that practice this religion being in a place of power. This appears to be a potential violation of 9.4:19.
Click to expand...
Again, please read carefully.

Edit: You do understand the difference between an official state religion and a "state controlled religion," right?
 
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