The Vexillum Billum

I disagree with changing the flag on principle. We already did it once a few years ago based on some arbitrary objection regarding the rule of tincture. Perhaps we shall change it again based on some other piece of pedantry someone else comes up with in a few years' time.
 
SillyString has the new flag as her avatar, and it has the white bottom. I don't think it looks particularly bad that way, can we confirm that is the same flag and would display similarly if it was applied to the region as a whole? If it is and it does, would that allay those concerns?
 
Changing the flag is a pretty major endeavor, and while I like the new design more than the current one, I think this sort of process needs more input from the region at large and more time than it's been given so far.

I also have a minor issue with the design. As it currently stands, they're is no clearly defined bottom edge, and so on a white background with no border, the white spaces at the bottom of the flag would be open into the background. On a piece of cloth, this would not be an issue, but since this will be almost exclusively for digital use, I think we should be optimising for all contexts. This could be resolved by putting a thin border around the design, or possibly by filling in the white space at the bottom with blue.

Edit: we could also think about replacing the white waves with gray, beige, or gold.
The white bottom was indeed an issue I had with this design, and no matter what I did I couldn't find a solution that looked good while matching the design and proportions of the escutcheon. I'll try and come up with a few more designs - I very much appreciate the constructive feedback here.

I find myself in complete agreement with @Crushing Our Enemies . I would strongly urge an onsite poll be used to gauge the opinion of all nations in the region, after first addressing the concern about the lower border.

I will confess that I am attached to the continuity of the three stripe flag, but if the region as polled clearly agrees with this change, I will support it in this Assembly.
This could potentially be arranged with the next government, but it is worth noting that I refuse not to put a bill forward due to the simple fact that I propose it as a private citizen, and thus would be flat out incapable of a formal poll. If I can't work out a poll with the next government, I will continue to work with the body I can poll - the RA.
I will do whatever I can, however, to make a formal poll from the region as a whole.

The simple answer is to remove the CoA and keep the three-stripe background: This simultaneously fixes the CoA misuse issue, addresses vexillological concerns, and preserves the tradition of the three-stripe flag. But I know I am in the minority (only one?) of people who appreciate the resulting simple yet elegant design :P .

I do agree with COE and Eluvatar that the new design would benefit from having an extra blue stripe at the bottom, to create a visible edge. It is also worth noting that the CoA itself ends on a blue stripe and not a white one. So, adding the bottom blue stripe to the proposed flag design would make it not only more practical, but also more in line with the CoA.
There is no way that I currently know of to have a horizontal, rectangular flag that has all the stripes and proportions of the escutcheon intact. The escutcheon is mainly vertical in its proportions, and having all the stripes present would result in a disproportionately tiny north star design or significant negative space.
I am willing to work further on this, however, but I sincerely doubt that I'd be able to make something that wouldn't introduce some other issue with the design.

Totally against. There's 650 NPA puppets that would have to be changed and the last time I did anything with all of them at once I almost got DOSed
Then... don't? Absolutely nothing requires all NPA soldiers to have all their puppets fly the current flag. Voting against simply because you feel, for some reason, obligated to change all your flags is a result of a misconception on your part. Either change your puppet's flags one at a time for ops, as you use them, or simply elect not to change your flags at all.

I disagree with changing the flag on principle. We already did it once a few years ago based on some arbitrary objection regarding the rule of tincture. Perhaps we shall change it again based on some other piece of pedantry someone else comes up with in a few years' time.
This isn't a change on principle. You are free to actually read my proposal, if you wish.

SillyString has the new flag as her avatar, and it has the white bottom. I don't think it looks particularly bad that way, can we confirm that is the same flag and would display similarly if it was applied to the region as a whole? If it is and it does, would that allay those concerns?
Do you mean on her nation, SillyString? That is the proposed flag, yes. I've also posted a preview of how the flag would look on the regional page here:
By the power of Chrome's console, I present to you how the region page would look with the above proposed flag.
 
There is no way that I currently know of to have a horizontal, rectangular flag that has all the stripes and proportions of the escutcheon intact. The escutcheon is mainly vertical in its proportions, and having all the stripes present would result in a disproportionately tiny north star design or significant negative space.
I am willing to work further on this, however, but I sincerely doubt that I'd be able to make something that wouldn't introduce some other issue with the design.

One option that could work is something like this:
t2c5lZi.png

I had to change the aspect ratio of the file to add the bottom blue stripe. But you could probably revert to the original one by expanding the white "waves" towards both sides.
 
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I was being sarcastic mostly but it would be a pain. It is NPA doctrine that any soldier flies the region flag during a jump/op as it is more impressive with our numbers to see all of the same flags flying. I would so not have a problem going with the region, but personally feel the current flag is fine. I like r3napssac3r's flag edits better tho
 
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One option that could work is something like this:
t2c5lZi.png

I had to change the aspect ratio of the file to add the bottom blue stripe. But you could probably revert to the original one by expanding the white "waves" towards both sides.
That resolves the white bottom issue, but it has two more issues that I see:
1) It changes the flag ratio from 5:3 to 10:7, which is a bit too square without being an actual square. This can be resolved, as you said, by expanding the flag out again, but the second issue would remain.
2) It imbalances the flag. Right now the flag is balanced so that the top half has the north star design while the bottom half has the waves design. Even if the flag were brought to 5:3 again, the north star area would have a large proportion of negative space to it, while the waves would take up 4/7 of the vertical space of the flag. In my eyes, since the flag would in the vast majority of cases have a border around it due to the NS site's CSS itself, the white bottom isn't a large enough issue to replace it with this issue.
I was being sarcastic mostly but it would be a pain. It is NPA doctrine that any soldier flies the region flag during a jump/op as it is more impressive with our numbers to see all of the same flags flying. I would so not have a problem going with the region, but personally feel the current flag is fine. I like r3napssac3r's flag edits better tho
I admit, it would be a pain, yes, but at least by spreading it out by just changing active puppets first it wouldn't be mod-worthy.
 
The simple answer is to remove the CoA and keep the three-stripe background: This simultaneously fixes the CoA misuse issue, addresses vexillological concerns, and preserves the tradition of the three-stripe flag. But I know I am in the minority (only one?) of people who appreciate the resulting simple yet elegant design :P .

8BX15iZ.png

I do agree with COE and Eluvatar that the new design would benefit from having an extra blue stripe at the bottom, to create a visible edge. It is also worth noting that the CoA itself ends on a blue stripe and not a white one. So, adding the bottom blue stripe to the proposed flag design would make it not only more practical, but also more in line with the CoA.
We could also even up the proportions, in the absence of something occupying the central space:

vanilla_even_flag.png
 
This could potentially be arranged with the next government, but it is worth noting that I refuse not to put a bill forward due to the simple fact that I propose it as a private citizen, and thus would be flat out incapable of a formal poll. If I can't work out a poll with the next government, I will continue to work with the body I can poll - the RA.
I will do whatever I can, however, to make a formal poll from the region as a whole.
We have a statute already that mandates polling, could we not put such a mandate into an implementation clause?
 
I also have a minor issue with the design. As it currently stands, they're is no clearly defined bottom edge, and so on a white background with no border, the white spaces at the bottom of the flag would be open into the background. On a piece of cloth, this would not be an issue, but since this will be almost exclusively for digital use, I think we should be optimising for all contexts. This could be resolved by putting a thin border around the design, or possibly by filling in the white space at the bottom with blue.
SillyString is using the proposed design as her national flag on NationStates. And Darc has mocked up what the regional page on NS would look like with the proposed flag. I don't think the white bottom edge is that much of a problem in a digital space.

I disagree with changing the flag on principle. We already did it once a few years ago based on some arbitrary objection regarding the rule of tincture. Perhaps we shall change it again based on some other piece of pedantry someone else comes up with in a few years' time.
Yes, I'm aware. When I first proposed the design that Darc used as the basis for this bill's proposed flag? You were quite adamant about me shutting up about it and never bringing it up again :P
Regardless...tincture and vexillological principles are not arbitrary. They're simply giving a name and stated rules to basic aspects of design. You don't need to know the specifics of tincture to design something that 100% adheres to it because it's just sort of common sense. CAN you design something nice that violates those rules? Sure, but you'll never go wrong adhering to the basic principles.

Beyond that though "I disagree with changing the flag on principle" seems rather arbitrary. I do tend to default towards preserving tradition if tradition isn't hurting anyone, but sometimes there are just clear improvements to be had. And I feel as if this is one of those cases.
Besides, this isn't even as much of a departure from tradition as some are making it out to be. The proposed flag is based on our coat of arms. The ingrained symbolism of TNP wouldn't be changed by this bill's passage. The traditions of our region would remain intact. They'd just be reinterpreted visually. In a cleaner and more vexillologically sound manner.

I admit. I find it funny how, after a lengthy debate, most of the region was swayed towards accepting a change that fundamentally altered how we categorize citizenship. Which could, in theory, effect so much about how this region is run.
And yet changing the flag from a banner that includes the coat of arms to a banner of said coat of arms has raised the ire of so many people sentimentally attached to the old way of doing things.
 
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I was being sarcastic mostly but it would be a pain. It is NPA doctrine that any soldier flies the region flag during a jump/op as it is more impressive with our numbers to see all of the same flags flying. I would so not have a problem going with the region, but personally feel the current flag is fine. I like r3napssac3r's flag edits better tho

Personally I think the NPA should adopt the current flag as its battle flag, and continue to use it for missions. Leave the regional flag for civilian use.

And then if we are ever couped, we can fly the flag upside down, which will have the north star literally under-water. ^_^

I'm disappointed that the bill did not pass, but I am hopeful that some hearts and minds can be swayed and it can still pass in the future.
 
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Personally I think the NPA should adopt the current flag as its battle flag, and continue to use it for missions. Leave the regional flag for civilian use.

And then if we are ever couped, we can fly the flag upside down, which will have the north star literally under-water. ^_^

I'm disappointed that the bill did not pass, but I am hopeful that some hearts and minds can be swayed and it can still pass in the future.

I can agree with you, sort of. The reality of it is that it's been a long held standard that the NPA represents TNP and as such flies the TNP flag, whatever it is, as defined by what is flying at the time on the region page, when it goes into battle. As the game changes and more and more of the new comers arrive, it's a constant discussion of individuality rights vs representing a team. I still think it's impressive to see a regional activity page showing the arrival of the NPA with massive TNP flags flying.

The truth is the NPA represents TNP and will fly the region flag as defined by what's flying on the region page at the time of an op. There is no issue in what that flag is as far as the NPA is concerned.
 
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Personally I think the NPA should adopt the current flag as its battle flag, and continue to use it for missions. Leave the regional flag for civilian use.

And then if we are ever couped, we can fly the flag upside down, which will have the north star literally under-water. ^_^

I'm disappointed that the bill did not pass, but I am hopeful that some hearts and minds can be swayed and it can still pass in the future.
I actually believe the new flag has a lot of support (including mine). Ultimately people were swayed by the argument that we needed more time for people to be aware and weigh in on this. Especially since in the middle of voting there was ongoing discussion and possible changes being proposed. I am confident that with more eyes and time for adjustment, a subsequent vote on this bill will be overwhelminglyin favor of the change.
 
I for one voted against due to the little time for the presentation of the bill prior to motioning to vote.

Citizenship was raised as a fundamental change which happened after extensive debate; there was no extensive debate here.

Secondly, I also voted against as I was disappointed that we were pretty much given an option and it was ran with. Given Prydania's position in the Executive, I would have hoped he could have created some sort of cultural event around the flag.

That being said, I'm not a fan of the current flag so I do support a change in the flag. Just a better process that it is done by.
 
Given Prydania's position in the Executive, I would have hoped he could have created some sort of cultural event around the flag.
I did not do this as I believe long-standing opponents of flag change would have decried any event I put together as a waste of time or even the Ministry of Culture overstepping its bounds.
 
I did not do this as I believe long-standing opponents of flag change would have decried any event I put together as a waste of time or even the Ministry of Culture overstepping its bounds.
I hardly think that would be overstepping bounds. Governments have previously proposed changes to our laws based on what they believe is necessary, the RA is free to support or reject the governments proposal as they wish.

Those opposed to a change in flags because of tradition(!) I'm sure would be more than welcome to put together other events for the Ministry of Culture to run if they think such an event is a waste of time.
 
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