Citizenship Application Rejection

Cormac

Cormac

TNPer
TNP Nation
Cormactopia III
Discord
Cormac#0804
Hello! So, some of you know me, the rest of you probably know of me. I'm not sure exactly why my citizenship application was rejected by the Vice Delegate. I have a vague idea, but it would be good, if possible, to know the exact reasons so I can respond to them.

Until then, if anyone has any questions for me, I would be happy to answer them. In anticipation of a few questions I think are likely to come up, I'll just answer some of them now:

You're a couper, aren't you?

I've been one of the leaders behind the winning factions in two internal conflicts in Osiris, in particular. Both are commonly regarded as "coups," though the first technically wasn't, as there was no legal government for us to overthrow (the legal government had been dissolved months earlier by Detective Figs [Astarial/SillyString], with broad community approval). The circumstances in Osiris on both occasions were very complicated, and I stand by my actions as imperfect solutions to the severe internal conflict but the only solutions that seemed workable at the time. I think the results in Osiris have actually turned out fairly decent. Some of you may disagree with the methods, and some of you may disagree with the results. That's fine and to be expected. What I'll say is that nothing I've ever done in Osiris was worse than what Funkadelia and Lamb have done in Lazarus, and yet they passed the Vice Delegate check. It's also worth noting the last such incident in Osiris was three years ago now.

In the interest of full disclosure, I also supported Hileville's actions in the South Pacific in early 2016, which are commonly regarded as constituting an attempted coup (as did many others, including some TNPers, as that was a quite complicated situation). I also supported the Undead Dominion and the Dominion of Lazarus in 2017, again under very complicated circumstances, but I did not support the Khanate of Lazarus in 2018 as that was much more overtly a coup perpetrated by an external force.

Also worth noting that I have opposed many coups, including: the South Pacific Socialist Republic perpetrated by Milograd, JAL, and Mall in 2013; the Osiris Imperium perpetrated by Douria, JAL, and Gatesville in 2013; the New Lazarene Order perpetrated by Stujenske, Feux, AMOM, Milograd, and the New Pacific Order in 2015; the brief coup against the West Pacific perpetrated by United RussoAsia and DEN in 2015; and, as mentioned, the Khanate of Lazarus perpetrated by Lamb, Funkadelia, Evil Wolf, and Lone Wolves United in 2018. I was instrumental in thwarting an attempted coup against Osiris by Jakker and The Black Hawks in 2013, I have consistently opposed the NPO's aggression against other GCRs over the years (including relatively recent actions taken against The North Pacific), and I was one of the leading voices calling for consequences against Ever-Wandering Souls when the Red Phone logs recently became public and showed that he had been planning subversive actions against the South Pacific. So I do think it should be taken into account that I am not just "a couper," and that I've opposed more coups than I've supported.

Haven't you threatened The North Pacific before?

Yes. I've said I would coup The North Pacific before. I have a bit of a temper, and sometimes I shoot my mouth off and say things like that I have no intention of following up on. I have never actually followed up on anything like that I've said about The North Pacific. You can go back through my history and you won't find any actual action I've ever taken that would threaten the security of The North Pacific. Contrast this with Gracius Maximus, aka Pierconium, aka Ivan Moldavi, aka this, aka that, who has actually perpetrated a coup in The North Pacific but passed the Vice Delegate check. Contrast this with JAL, who has actually perpetrated coups in The North Pacific but has been admitted to citizenship here in the past. Contrast this with Mall, who didn't give a second thought to being co-lead in a coup against The North Pacific's ally the South Pacific, and who semi-frequently campaigns for Delegate here on a platform promising to perpetrate a coup against The North Pacific -- and yet is still admitted to citizenship here. So on the whole, my verbal threats, which are years old and have never been followed up by actual action against The North Pacific's security, are certainly no worse than the actual actions taken by those who have been admitted to citizenship.

Aren't you just doing this because Funkadelia and Lamb were admitted to citizenship?

No. It's true that was the catalyst that finally got me to apply for citizenship, but I've been interested in applying for citizenship here far longer than that. During his term as Vice Delegate, I contacted Siwale by telegram to inquire about whether I would be admitted to citizenship. He indicated that I would fail the Vice Delegate check, and I opted not to apply at that time. I'm applying now because I don't think I'm anymore a security threat than Funkadelia, Lamb, Gracius Maximus, Mall, JAL, et al., but to be clear, I've wanted to apply for some time. I'd like to be involved in the community here and specifically I'd like to contribute to WA Affairs and maybe Home Affairs, a ministry to which I briefly contributed during my prior time as a citizen here. I've come to enjoy gameside engagement quite a bit so that's something I'd specifically be looking to be involved in as well. So this is not just about proving a point in regard to Funkadelia's and Lamb's recent admission to citizenship. I do actually want to contribute here.

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So, those are answers to some questions I think are likely to come up or are already on people's minds. Again, if anyone has questions for me, I'm happy to answer them. I do understand the distrust for me, but I hope the Regional Assembly will consider giving me the benefit of the doubt, with an understanding that The North Pacific's security system is actually quite strong and I'm no real threat to it, and give me a chance to prove I am here to positively contribute. Thanks for your consideration.
 
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Hey what happened to that time you were anti-TNP admins because of the NSWF disaster? Did you change your mind about them? Since you are joining a forum run by the same TNP admins, also make amends

or don’t mind this post >.< just chiming in. Good thread history.
 
Lets assume that you have only the best intentions in mind and you are 100% honest.

Would you understand the animosity towards letting you anywhere near exec staff, especially one like WA affairs? And how would you respond to that as people are certain to be tentative to let you do anything in government.
 
Yuno:
Hey what happened to that time you were anti-TNP admins because of the NSWF disaster? Did you change your mind about them? Since you are joining a forum run by the same TNP admins, also make amends

or don’t mind this post >.< just chiming in. Good thread history.
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I generally don't pander or tell people what I think they want to hear, so I'll be honest about my opinion: I think the conduct of Lord Ravenclaw, McMasterdonia, and Eluvatar in regard to the accusations against Imki at the NS World Fair were very troubling. I think the TNP admin team could and should have held all three of them more accountable. I think when the admin team failed to do so, TNP's community could and should have held the admin team more accountable. I don't think McMasterdonia or Eluvatar should be admins here anymore. All of that said, time has passed and everyone, most importantly including Imki herself, has moved on, so it's not a point I really care to belabor. But since you asked, there's my position on the whole thing. It's basically the same position I had at the time.

I will say I think my "in your face" handling of the situation was inappropriate and disrespectful, and for that I apologize.

TlomzKrano:
Lets assume that you have only the best intentions in mind and you are 100% honest.

Would you understand the animosity towards letting you anywhere near exec staff, especially one like WA affairs? And how would you respond to that as people are certain to be tentative to let you do anything in government.
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I can understand people being hesitant or unwilling to let me near certain ministries, including the NPA or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Assuming I accurately understand what the Ministry of WA Affairs does, I'm not sure I would understand that. It's my understanding that the Ministry of WA Affairs writes WA recommendations based on what the government has decided to recommend, but that the authors of such recommendations don't decide on their own what the recommendation will be. Is that accurate? If so, I don't understand the hesitation to let me do that. If there's more to the Ministry of WA Affairs, then depending on what the "more" is, I may understand why there would be hesitation. So it really depends on what participation in the ministry would entail.

If I'm admitted to citizenship, I don't think it would be appropriate to bar me from the executive staff altogether. What harm could really anyone do in Home Affairs or Culture, as two examples? Putting myself aside for a minute, barring a citizen from the executive staff altogether would just be a bad precedent to set. If it's me today, will it be a citizen the Delegate simply doesn't like tomorrow? I think there can be good reasons to restrict certain people from certain ministries, but I'm struggling to see a blanket prohibition as anything but unreasonable. I'm open to your point of view if you think there's a reasonable argument for it though. Ultimately it really isn't my call, and if I'm admitted to citizenship but prohibited from the executive staff, I'll still do my best to contribute without being in any ministries. But I do think it would be prudent to look beyond me and how the precedent could be abused in the future.

Wonderess:
Thank you for your response and openness. Do you not think it would help your cause to first be a part of the community as a resident so that we may come to see that you wish to contribute and help the region before going straight for citizenship?
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Well, I've already applied, and the Regional Assembly is, I assume, already scheduled to vote on my rejection. So I think the cat is already out of the bag at this point. I could stick around as a resident if my rejection is upheld, but I don't think I'm likely to do that. If more than half of TNP's citizenry votes to uphold rejection of my citizenship application, to me that's saying more than half of TNP's citizenry doesn't want me here. I suppose a few of those could be open to giving me a chance as a resident, but I don't think that would be the case with most people. I'm genuinely not here to annoy a large number of people and cause problems for the community. So if my rejection is upheld, I think it would be most appropriate for me to go on my way, rather than sticking around as a resident.

If there are a significant number of people who vote to uphold my rejection but would like me to stick around as a resident, I would certainly appreciate it and take that into account though. But I don't want to stick around if it's just going to bother most people.

Lady Raven Wing:
How would you describe your past history in TNP, and in particular your interactions with other TNPers at the time?
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Well, I've gotten along fine with most people from what I can recall. That isn't to say I haven't had extremely contentious exchanges with the few people with whom I didn't get along though. Those exchanges were at times over the top, rude, disruptive, and thus disrespectful not only to those individuals but also to the community. So I do regret the past incidents, and I would be aiming not to do that kind of thing this time around. I would certainly appreciate the chance to prove I'm serious about that.

Gracius Maximus:
I’ve tried to tell them that you don’t matter, are all bluster and no bite, and largely ineffectual unless someone hands you some logs to leak but they haven’t listened.

I know you aren’t a threat to TNP because you aren’t a threat period.

Oh well.
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I agree I'm not a threat to The North Pacific or any other peaceful region. :)
 
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"Aren't you just doing this because Funkadelia and Lamb were admitted to citizenship?"
"No. It's true that was the catalyst that finally got me to apply for citizenship"

So basically yes. Excuses, excuses.

"I will say I think my "in your face" handling of the situation was inappropriate and disrespectful, and for that I apologize"

Funny how you finally do that when it's convenient to you.

I don't buy your little happy-positive facade. Not for a second. Don't continue to mock our region with more of your lies.
 
Please refrain from discussion the motion in this thread and keep it to the private halls.

Questions are appropriate for this thread. If any citizen wishes, they can relay the questions to me to be asked or they can ask the question themselves.
 
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Cormac:
I don't think McMasterdonia or Eluvatar should be admins here anymore.
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There is a simple reason I didn't resign: things needed to be done, and I didn't think they would be done without my participation.

Cormac:
I will say I think my "in your face" handling of the situation was inappropriate and disrespectful, and for that I apologize.
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For myself, I accept your apology.



Do you believe The North Pacific is a democratic region?

Do you believe The North Pacific should be more or less democratic?

How long do you think you would contribute to The North Pacific for, if admitted? At least? At most?

How would you characterize your most recent disengagement from a community (such as a region) on NationStates? Was it contentious? Did it no longer bring joy?

What is the capital of Burkina Faso?
 
Cormac:
I can understand people being hesitant or unwilling to let me near certain ministries, including the NPA or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Assuming I accurately understand what the Ministry of WA Affairs does, I'm not sure I would understand that. It's my understanding that the Ministry of WA Affairs writes WA recommendations based on what the government has decided to recommend, but that the authors of such recommendations don't decide on their own what the recommendation will be. Is that accurate? If so, I don't understand the hesitation to let me do that. If there's more to the Ministry of WA Affairs, then depending on what the "more" is, I may understand why there would be hesitation. So it really depends on what participation in the ministry would entail.

If I'm admitted to citizenship, I don't think it would be appropriate to bar me from the executive staff altogether. What harm could really anyone do in Home Affairs or Culture, as two examples? Putting myself aside for a minute, barring a citizen from the executive staff altogether would just be a bad precedent to set. If it's me today, will it be a citizen the Delegate simply doesn't like tomorrow? I think there can be good reasons to restrict certain people from certain ministries, but I'm struggling to see a blanket prohibition as anything but unreasonable. I'm open to your point of view if you think there's a reasonable argument for it though. Ultimately it really isn't my call, and if I'm admitted to citizenship but prohibited from the executive staff, I'll still do my best to contribute without being in any ministries. But I do think it would be prudent to look beyond me and how the precedent could be abused in the future.
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To keep things brief, the Ministry of WA Affairs orchestrates votes for various proposals that reach the WA floor. The WA residents of the region can vote on those proposals as long as they jump thru a few hoops in having their WA within the region. We then write the IFV that reflects the ministry's position on the proposal. Yes the delegate does have executive authority over the vote and various ministry functions, but rarely is that privilege used. Due to our relations with WALL and our position in the WA, our WA can very often be seen as FA especially in the SC scene.
 
How can we be sure what you say here (assuming you're being entirely honest) will be the same if you see an opportunity?
 
"All of that said, time has passed and everyone, most importantly including Imki herself, has moved on, so it's not a point I really care to belabor."

"I will say I think my "in your face" handling of the situation was inappropriate and disrespectful, and for that I apologize."

I think these are important points, and if there's a vote, you won over my support for your TNP stay. I can't speak for the others. Thanks for speaking honestly! ^-^
Take care!

NOTE: I knew you wanted to join TNP for months to years, and in honest intention... Kind of sucks that there's a reasonable amount of conflict and controversy especially from the NSWF 2017. I forgot about that completely. If you don't get in, Laz and TRR are best alternative options. Ok ^^ Take care in your career!
 
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Eluvatar:
For myself, I accept your apology.
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Thank you. I'm glad we'll be able to put that behind us.

Eluvatar:
Do you believe The North Pacific is a democratic region?
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Yes, to the extent that any region in NationStates that is governed primarily off-site is democratic, and to a greater extent than most such regions due to TNP's higher than average voter participation.

Eluvatar:
Do you believe The North Pacific should be more or less democratic?
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It seems to be that TNP is about the right amount of democratic for TNP's needs. It is both stable and active, again with far higher voter participation than many regions that are primarily governed off-site, so it seems this form of government works for TNP and I wouldn't see any reason for radical alterations in either direction.

Eluvatar:
How long do you think you would contribute to The North Pacific for, if admitted? At least? At most?
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I've stopped making predictions, let alone promises, about how long I can be expected to do anything, years ago. What I can say is that I intend to be a long-term contributor.

Eluvatar:
How would you characterize your most recent disengagement from a community (such as a region) on NationStates? Was it contentious? Did it no longer bring joy?
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I'm fairly sure my most recent disengagement was from Lazarus. There's a particular individual there who doesn't care for me, and to avoid making him uncomfortable, and because I simply don't feel like I'm really invested in Lazarus' community anymore, I decided to resign my citizenship there. I still hold Lazarus in very high regard and wish them all the best, but I'm not one for sticking around and maintaining citizenship without making an active contribution. I'm also generally not one to stick around and make people uncomfortable with my presence, though of course that depends on how invested I am in the community. I wouldn't be inclined to leave a region I'm invested in because one person doesn't like me. But in the case of Lazarus, it just seemed like the right time for me to say goodbye for now, with no hard feelings at all.

I'm not sure if you were asking this question with a specific region in mind, or if it was just a general question. But in case you did have a specific region in mind, there have been two other recent and notable disengagements. I recently disengaged from the region Gay, and that was in fact a contentious disengagement due to a governmental dispute involving a good friend of mine. Nonetheless, I wish them all the best in their future endeavors. I also recently retired as Delegate of Pacifica, though that isn't really a true disengagement as I remain in the region. I have reduced my role there though, and I think that's for the best to give others the opportunity to step up and write the next chapter for the region. That retirement wasn't contentious at all, it was just a matter of me being burned out on the job of running a regional government and it being time to move toward new leadership.

Eluvatar:
What is the capital of Burkina Faso?
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It's Ouagadougou. And yes, I did Google that. :P

TlomzKrano:
To keep things brief, the Ministry of WA Affairs orchestrates votes for various proposals that reach the WA floor. The WA residents of the region can vote on those proposals as long as they jump thru a few hoops in having their WA within the region. We then write the IFV that reflects the ministry's position on the proposal. Yes the delegate does have executive authority over the vote and various ministry functions, but rarely is that privilege used. Due to our relations with WALL and our position in the WA, our WA can very often be seen as FA especially in the SC scene.
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Well, I would like to be involved in the Ministry of WA Affairs because I quite enjoy the WA, and I feel my skills would be put to good use writing IFVs. Based on your description, it seems like the foreign affairs impact of a rank-and-file member of the ministry would be pretty minimal, since the IFV writer doesn't determine what the recommendation will be, and since I don't imagine writing IFVs requires much foreign interaction. That said, if rejected from the Ministry of WA Affairs, or any other ministry, I would accept that without protest -- but I'll once again say I think prohibiting any citizen from participating in the executive staff altogether sets bad precedent that is likely to be abused later.

Bormiar:
How can we be sure what you say here (assuming you're being entirely honest) will be the same if you see an opportunity?
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I'm not entirely sure what opportunity you think I might see and seize. If you mean an opportunity to coup, I'm simply not interested, and I don't have a history of ever taking any action to threaten TNP's security. That said, when a question is essentially "how can we be sure you're not lying," there really is no answer to that other than of course there's no way you can be sure. It's just a matter of whether you believe me or not. It's basically a judgment call.

Yuno:
"All of that said, time has passed and everyone, most importantly including Imki herself, has moved on, so it's not a point I really care to belabor."

"I will say I think my "in your face" handling of the situation was inappropriate and disrespectful, and for that I apologize."

I think these are important points, and if there's a vote, you won over my support for your TNP stay. I can't speak for the others. Thanks for speaking honestly! ^-^
Take care!

NOTE: I knew you wanted to join TNP for months to years, and in honest intention... Kind of sucks that there's a reasonable amount of conflict and controversy especially from the NSWF 2017. I forgot about that completely. If you don't get in, Laz and TRR are best alternative options. Ok ^^ Take care in your career!
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Thanks Yuno. You take care too!
 
Praetor:
I like pineapple on pizza too (just pineapple is the best with no other toppings) so only scoring points here.
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Praetor, I don't believe I have ever heard of such a heinous crime in all my life. Surely there must be something against such terrible acts somewhere on our legal code...? If not then there should be!!

:boom:
 
Cormac:
I'm not entirely sure what opportunity you think I might see and seize. If you mean an opportunity to coup, I'm simply not interested, and I don't have a history of ever taking any action to threaten TNP's security. That said, when a question is essentially "how can we be sure you're not lying," there really is no answer to that other than of course there's no way you can be sure. It's just a matter of whether you believe me or not. It's basically a judgment call.
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Thank you. Of course this is a matter of something that's not important know but perhaps would be later (TNP's security is too good). I'm sure raiding and couping gets boring after a while :).
 
Well this this is what we’re doing now, why not.

Are there actually people who put only pineapple on pizza? Because that’s kind of weird. I would still have no problem with it, but to me pineapple was always a complementarytopping, it works best when it’s working with another topping like ham or pepperoni. By itself would be a bit strange from my perspective.

To the more pertinent point, I don’t have a question for @Cormac so much as a thought I would like to share and get his perspective on. Whether or not you actually want to get involved in TNP “for real” and have good intentions (I initially thought this was a stunt designed to make a point because of a few people who got accepted, and felt pretty confident about that take because of remarks you made in public about your application), do you think it’s a good idea? This has happened before and it’s always ended badly. NS is not the first online community I’ve been involved with, and there are always some individuals who rack up a history with the community and lose the trust or support of some people. They make attempts to make amends and return, and to their credit they are usually sincere about it, but they fall into an old pattern or the history is so negative that they cannot gain traction or trust and become frustrated. Sometimes this frustration leads to them lashing out and justifying people’s worst impressions of them, but more often than not it just leads them to walk away dejected and disappointed. I have always tried to rehabilitate and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the longer that history is, the harder it is to do. When it gets bad enough and to a certain point, I counsel them to move on and stop trying to force it.

From what I gathered from this and other discussions over the years, I’m concerned this may be one of those cases. I believe that even if you mean well and would do things right this time, minds have been made up and trust will be too hard to earn in any meaningful way. You think you’re disappointed now? I think there’s plenty more disappointment to come if this pans out. I wish it didn’t have to be that way, but sometimes people just can’t get along. Am I way off base here? I feel like you knew that going in.

For what it’s worth, since this is the kind of guy I am, I’m inclined to take you at your word here. But I think you would admit that you earned your reputation and the history that transpired isn’t the best one. Neither of us want what happened then to happen again, and this kind of thing is a two way street. We should feel comfortable with our citizens, but they should also feel comfortable and at home in our region. Fair or not, I think that there would be discomfort in too many places even setting aside the question of trust. Again, if you think I’m off base here, let me know, but I think you would agree it’s a fair point.
 
So, I think Pallaith makes a good point, and I have a few words to say about it.

In applying for citizenship here, it was my hope to prove that I could contribute here without making the same mistakes I've made here and elsewhere in the past. I also wanted to show some of the newer players who have never even met me that I'm a three dimensional actual person, and there's more to me than the caricature I've been portrayed as by certain folks over the years. This is not to say I haven't made mistakes -- like I've said, I have, and so some of the negative ways people see me are deserved. But it bothers me the increasing number of people, here and elsewhere, who have never even met or interacted with me but have formed strongly negative opinions of me based on what they've heard from someone else. I really would like to have the opportunity to demonstrate that I'm more than what they've heard, that I have positive traits as well. I'm not sure if I've succeeded at all in doing that during the course of this situation. In some ways, I hope I have. In other ways, I think this situation has perhaps just added fuel to the fire, making it seem as though I'm only interested in drama and causing trouble. That really wasn't my intent here. I went into this determined to be civil and respectful, and I think I've done that. I hope so. But on the other hand, even despite my best efforts to avoid it, situations have arisen that have caused drama and conflict. I'm sorry for that, because it really wasn't my goal here.

With all of that being said, I've decided if the Regional Assembly votes to uphold the rejection of my citizenship application, I won't be sticking around as a resident as some have encouraged. I appreciate the folks who have encouraged me to stick around in that capacity though. But I think there's a lot of truth in what Pallaith says. I think if I stick around there are still going to be a number of people who don't want me here at all, and that's going to lead to hostility. The hostility is likely to make me fall back into old habits and lead to conflict. Instead of demonstrating that I can contribute here, more likely than not, my presence here will just further aggravate those who don't want me here and make them more determined that I not be able to contribute. So this just isn't something I see having a positive outcome in the long run if rejection of my citizenship application is upheld, which I sense it likely will be. I think it will cause drama for me and drama for folks in TNP, and again, that's really not what I want. So at the conclusion of voting, if rejection of my citizenship application is upheld, I'll be on my way.

I do want to say that despite my negative opinions of TNP in the past, I really feel this is overall a good community. I think there are some issues, as is the case in every community. I think a lot of people are committed to addressing them and I hope that will turn out well. I think it will. I really, sincerely wish the community of TNP all the best. I don't have any hard feelings about how this has gone, and in fact I appreciate how many people have been respectful in their questioning in this thread. When this is over, if my citizenship application remains rejected, you won't find me trash talking TNP for it. Because you folks gave me a fair process and let me be heard and I appreciate that. I hope over time, even though I won't be participating here, maybe opinions of me can improve among TNPers. In any event, despite some people highlighting some of the bad, I've seen a lot of good in this community the past few days and I was glad to see it. I hope to be a friend to TNP in the future and even if me contributing here is never in the cards, I hope we can move forward with mutual respect and a little more understanding. Thank you all for your time and again, best wishes to all of you.
 
As the Regional Assembly has voted to uphold my rejection, I have moved my nation, Cormactopia IV, out of The North Pacific.

I wish TNP well, and again, thank you for giving me a fair opportunity to be heard.
 
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Cormac:
As the Regional Assembly has voted to uphold my rejection, I have moved my nation, Cormactopia IV, out of The North Pacific.

I wish TNP well, and again, thank you for giving me a fair opportunity to be heard.
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Thank you for the well wishes.

Hope you have fun in your future endeavours.

See you around.
 
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