Citizenship Amendment

[Siwale]

Citizenship Amendment

1. Section 6.2 of the Codified Law of The North Pacific is hereby amended to read as follows:

Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship

11. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.

12. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leave or ceases to exist.

13. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board with their registered nations.

Spoiler: Annotation of changes

Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship

11. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.

12. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leaves or ceases to exist.

13. The Speaker’s office will promptly remove any citizens who fail to post in The North Pacific forum for over 30 consecutive days who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board with their registered nations.

Spoiler: Version 1

Section 6.2: Administration and Loss of Citizenship

11. Upon being granted citizenship, a citizen’s registered nation will be the nation they declared in their latest successful citizenship application.

12. A citizen may change their registered nation by making a post to that effect using their regional forum account.

11 13. The Speaker will maintain a publicly viewable roster of citizens and their registered nations.

12 14. The Speaker will promptly remove any citizens whose removal is ordered by the Court, or whose registered nations in The North Pacific leaves or ceases to exist.

13 15. The Speaker’s office will promptly remove any citizens who fail to post in The North Pacific forum for over 30 consecutive days who, for over 30 consecutive days, neither post on the regional forum, nor post on the regional message board with their registered nations.

While the majority of this bill involves cosmetic changes and brings the laws up-to-date with current practices, the real heart of this bill is centered around the changes proposed in clause 15. Under our current laws, nations are removed after 30 days of failing to post on the forum - regardless of whether or not they remain active gameside. This can lead to considerable frustration with nations who remain active members of our gameside community but lose their citizenship status (and ultimately their right to vote and run in elections). Of course nations are free to reapply for citizenship in order to regain their democratic rights, but this process takes time, adds to frustration levels, and can result in loss of voter and candidate eligibility if applications are cut too close to an election.

The fact is that our current system decreases voter turnout in elections, increases the workload of the Speaker, Vice Delegate, and Administrators (who have to keep up with these recurring citizenship applications), and decreases the overall level of community engagement in the government and regional forum. As a community, we should be searching for ways to further democracy rather than continuing practices which oppress certain groups within TNP.

I continue to advocate for holding citizens to one manual and measurable action every month. This lets us know that citizens are still (at least somewhat) engaged in our community and are not maintaining their status by computerized actions. What this bill does is incorporate the gameside equivalent to a forum post: an RMB post. Unlike the other gameside actions, RMB posts meet both of the following criteria:

1. They are able to be manually tracked back beyond the 7 day cutoff for NS data.
2. They are unable to be fully automated per NationStates site rules.

This allows for the Speaker to verify the accuracy of the citizenship script before removing flagged citizens and also prevents a computer from fulfilling the gameside requirements for citizenship.

I hope the RA will agree with me that this change is vital and aligns with TNP’s underlying democratic principles and core values. While some nations may choose to not regularly participate on the forum, they remain active members of our community who are directly impacted by the officials elected to govern this region. Voting is a basic right in TNP and should be made as accessible as possible to all who wish to partake.

 

[Wonderess]

I feel like the original purpose of having an offsite component to the region is to take the stresses of communal activity and organization off of the Regional Message Board which is very linear and does not provide ample space for the organization and tracking of discussion. Citizenship itself requires activity on the forum, so why is it that RMB activity should be considered when analyzing citizenship? The central responsibility of citizenry is taking part in the Regional Assembly and voting in elections which are both forum activities. Also, this may in some way make it easier to maintain citizenship. Is that a move that the community as a whole would like to make?

 

[Kyle]

I'm not really a fan of posting requirements (for a long time TSP didn't have them and I resisted attempts to institute them back when I was in there; here in TNP, I didn't really intend to apply for cit because of posting requirements - I only applied because the RP had one and might as well ask for TNP cit anyway if RP requires me to post every 30 days) but this would be a welcome, inclusive change. My concern is practical: implementation. I assume our govt has/can have a tool to automatically monitor when the last RMB post was made?

 

[Wonderess]

My concern is practical: implementation. I assume our govt has/can have a tool to automatically monitor when the last RMB post was made?

The region's current spreadsheet is in theory capable of telling us when someone has not posted in 30 days and also when a nation registered leaves the region. I assume a column for RMB activity could be added, though I am not currently trusting the sheet 100% as I think the forum change might be messing with it.

 

[Darcania]

There's no limits placed on clause 12. Is the Speaker required to update their records if the citizen posts in, say, an election campaign thread that their nation is XYZ when it's actually 123? What if a citizen mentions in a forum post that their nation is XYZ, without intending to change their nation? What if the citizen posts in a private forum area?

Clause 11 is also a duplicate of clause 2 of section 6.1, with a minor change of requiring a clause like clause 12. I think clauses 11 and 12 should be simply removed - the current practices of the Speaker's Office works well enough. Not only that, clause 11 of the current law already gives the Speaker the responsibility to maintain the registry, so I'm unsure what the goal of the new 11 and 12 are. The registry should be left up to the Speaker rather than defined to such detail in the law.

Following from that, the term "declared nation" or "nation in The North Pacific" should be used over "registered nation", since the term registered nation is defined in clause 11.

14 and 15 also seem to imply that one may have multiple registered nations, when both the current law and your proposal indicate that only one registered nation is allowed.

Clause 14 is most worrying of all: it's incorrectly marked up so it's easy to miss but the specific language of "whose nation in The North Pacific leaves" implies intent, which the Speaker's Office had been using for some time. If a nation involuntarily leaves due to being ejected, the Speaker does not remove citizenship from that event due to the lack of intent. However, the new language ("whose registered nations does not reside in The North Pacific") does not require intent, and thus unilaterally gives the Delegate and ROs the power to remove citizens by ejecting or banning them from the region.

 

[Sil Dorsett]

Full disclosure, Siwale consulted with me on two drafts of this bill, the first of which I explained technical concerns behind it, but the second of which I granted clear passage to this stage. However, this is the point where my objections become more of an RA matter than a technical scripting and automation matter.

I have concerns of whether this could enable a governmental drift away from the forum. While still possible under current conditions, it would be much easier to implement, through a few crucial votes, the removal of the forum as the central control station of the government. Two votes is all it would take: Either the election of an anti-forum delegate and passage of an omnibus bill to implement, or the initial passage of an omnibus bill and the override of a pro-forum delegate's veto. All it would take is for non-forum participants to register accounts, apply for citizenship, and maintain activity on the RMB, and eventually, the numbers could stack against the current forum-based government. This has the potential to decentralize the government into a disorganized mess, given the nature of the RMB, and I know there are several people within the RMB RP community especially that would love to see this happen.

I don't think we should do this.

 

[Dinoium]

I like this idea, this has my support. I would like to also point out the Regional Message Board idea is great! Most people's RMB messages can be found with a message searcher if it's not any messages in the past 8 days. My only fear is we will probably have more citizens who won't pay too much Forum Attention as Citizenship and others mainly rely on thr Forums/off site platforms to base our region. I don't think the Regional Assembly and Elections will get less people, instead I think most citizens just won't go vote regularly. A responbility of a citizen is to go and vote. We will probably still get a lot of people to vote if not more though probably overtime there will be more citizens not voting than voting. That's all I fear but this still has my support.

 

[Darcania]

I have concerns of whether this could enable a governmental drift away from the forum. While still possible under current conditions, it would be much easier to implement, through a few crucial votes, the removal of the forum as the central control station of the government. Two votes is all it would take: Either the election of an anti-forum delegate and passage of an omnibus bill to implement, or the initial passage of an omnibus bill and the override of a pro-forum delegate's veto.

As a small note, the forum is defined in the Constitution, so a 2/3 majority is necessary from the start and the Delegate couldn't veto it.

 

[Sil Dorsett]

As a small note, the forum is defined in the Constitution, so a 2/3 majority is necessary from the start and the Delegate couldn't veto it.

Got me there. So that makes it down to one vote. The removal of the forum entirely and for all government functions to be held gameside on the RMB, which lacks structure given its single threaded operation.

 

[Funkadelia]

I have always viewed the forum based government as something of a separate world than that of the NationStates site regulars. The forum-centric operations are here for those who are interested in democratic processes and engaging in debate about process and policies - a "higher level" of play, if you will. In my experience, I have never really been able to get too many extra people to join the off-site forum if they haven't decided to already after all of the messages about it you receive here. Certainly, I think that outreach to the NationStates at-large community is important, but there comes a point, to my mind, where the returns diminish. To that end, I'm not really sure that this proposal will be effective or is necessary.

On the other hand, I think the scenario of people from in the game changing the constitution to demolish the government and move it to the RMB would be kind of funny to see happen, but is quite a far fetched nightmare scenario. I think you could come up with just about any situation with people joining the region to force just about any change on the government, and they're all just as likely as one another. All this bill does is essentially loosen the forum posting requirements.

This post sounds like a lot of waffle. That's because, well, much of it is. I don't have a really solid opinion on this proposal just yet, but those are just my thoughts at the moment.

 

[Siwale]

I feel like the original purpose of having an offsite component to the region is to take the stresses of communal activity and organization off of the Regional Message Board which is very linear and does not provide ample space for the organization and tracking of discussion. Citizenship itself requires activity on the forum, so why is it that RMB activity should be considered when analyzing citizenship? The central responsibility of citizenry is taking part in the Regional Assembly and voting in elections which are both forum activities. Also, this may in some way make it easier to maintain citizenship. Is that a move that the community as a whole would like to make?

If a gameside active nation shows up on the forum to vote in each election and potentially on some RA proposals as well, they could easily go over 30 days with no forum posts. I think it is important to point out that there are gameside active nations that do not wish to use the forum on a regular basis. Let’s be honest, if you are not interested in getting involved in the regional government (besides voting) or forum RP, there really isn’t a huge incentive to post on the forum all too often.

The change I’m proposing is a way to allow nations who fall into this category to demonstrate their regional activity through a gameside means in order to preserve citizenship. My biggest concern is shutting active gameside nations out of elections which affect ALL nations in TNP.

I'm not really a fan of posting requirements (for a long time TSP didn't have them and I resisted attempts to institute them back when I was in there; here in TNP, I didn't really intend to apply for cit because of posting requirements - I only applied because the RP had one and might as well ask for TNP cit anyway if RP requires me to post every 30 days) but this would be a welcome, inclusive change. My concern is practical: implementation. I assume our govt has/can have a tool to automatically monitor when the last RMB post was made?

I don’t think a forum or RMB post every 30 days is too difficult to maintain. The addition of RMB posting under this bill would actually add even more flexibility in that regard.

Our speaker has access to a spreadsheet which keeps track of all applicable activity for maintaining citizenship. I have already consulted with the spreadsheet coder, r3n, who has offered to add a RMB-tracking component into the spreadsheet. Much of the code for it already exists.

There's no limits placed on clause 12. Is the Speaker required to update their records if the citizen posts in, say, an election campaign thread that their nation is XYZ when it's actually 123? What if a citizen mentions in a forum post that their nation is XYZ, without intending to change their nation? What if the citizen posts in a private forum area?

Clause 11 is also a duplicate of clause 2 of section 6.1, with a minor change of requiring a clause like clause 12. I think clauses 11 and 12 should be simply removed - the current practices of the Speaker's Office works well enough. Not only that, clause 11 of the current law already gives the Speaker the responsibility to maintain the registry, so I'm unsure what the goal of the new 11 and 12 are. The registry should be left up to the Speaker rather than defined to such detail in the law.

Following from that, the term "declared nation" or "nation in The North Pacific" should be used over "registered nation", since the term registered nation is defined in clause 11.

14 and 15 also seem to imply that one may have multiple registered nations, when both the current law and your proposal indicate that only one registered nation is allowed.

Clause 14 is most worrying of all: it's incorrectly marked up so it's easy to miss but the specific language of "whose nation in The North Pacific leaves" implies intent, which the Speaker's Office had been using for some time. If a nation involuntarily leaves due to being ejected, the Speaker does not remove citizenship from that event due to the lack of intent. However, the new language ("whose registered nations does not reside in The North Pacific") does not require intent, and thus unilaterally gives the Delegate and ROs the power to remove citizens by ejecting or banning them from the region.

Good catch of Clause 14. I have fixed that one. I'll look further into clauses 11 and 12 and get back to you on those.

I have concerns of whether this could enable a governmental drift away from the forum. While still possible under current conditions, it would be much easier to implement, through a few crucial votes, the removal of the forum as the central control station of the government. Two votes is all it would take: Either the election of an anti-forum delegate and passage of an omnibus bill to implement, or the initial passage of an omnibus bill and the override of a pro-forum delegate's veto. All it would take is for non-forum participants to register accounts, apply for citizenship, and maintain activity on the RMB, and eventually, the numbers could stack against the current forum-based government. This has the potential to decentralize the government into a disorganized mess, given the nature of the RMB, and I know there are several people within the RMB RP community especially that would love to see this happen.

This argument is based on a number of flawed assumptions:

1. It assumes that all RMB posters share the same ideologies and will vote the same way. Last I checked, sharing the same platform of communication does not suddenly make everyone agree. If that was the case, there wouldn’t be any discussion with this bill and we would have it pass with 100% of the RA for since we are all forum users
   
   
2. It assumes that every RMB poster is going to register for citizenship and show up to elections. While I would love to see this ginormous increase in voter turnout, it is simply never going to happen. We have a hard enough time getting half of the current citizens to vote in elections in the current state.
   
   
3. It assumes that our current citizen pool is so small, that the introduction of another group of players will overrun our current citizens. We have 161 citizens currently. It would be quite hard to accomplish keeping in mind the majority of TNP nations do not frequent the RMB. And of those that do, they would still be required to pass all 3 of the citizenship checks before being able to vote.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I support this proposal . I’m somewhat surprised by the type of criticism this is receiving.

TNP has some extremely old nations. Some of whom have been here since the very beginning. They are not able to vote because the forum is not the way they play this game. However, I think it would be folly to assume their voice ought not be heard.

Even newer nations should be heard. I would love to have all of our government officials engaging in the in game component that brought us all here. Each will have their own excuses for why they do not. Their excuses are widely accepted and tolerated. It’s apparently completely fine for government officials to make no post in-game ever. But apparently the inability of gameside nations to post on the forum once a month or login is unacceptable and they should be disenfranchised because of it. This is not a reason to allow people the right to vote. It is hypocrisy.

As far as I am concerned a post on the RMB is just as valuable as a post in the games section of the forum. It’s better than those who simply login once a month but never post. I think it’s a great shame that these nations simply through the way they interact with the game and no matter how long their nation has been here, or how many endorsements they have, or how many rogue Delegate’s they have resisted they are unable to vote.

We have the technology to make this possible and we have the political will from the top to make it happen. Let’s do it.

 

[Darcania]

If the region of TNP, which we all here are, desires the RMB to be the seat of government, then I will vehemently vote against it. However, if TNP, a democracy I might add, as a whole decides to make the jump with a 2/3 majority... then that's what will happen. It's the will of our regional assembly, the democratic institution of the region of TNP.

 

[Sil Dorsett]

Show me one RMB RP-centric member that actually cares about the concerns of the Forum RP community.

 

[Funkadelia]

Show me one RMB RP-centric member that actually cares about the concerns of the Forum RP community.

I'm not sure how that is germane to this idea. They are still in TNP, so they would still be part of the community. I'd be willing to wager that Forum RP people and even people who are just here for the government are not all too interested in the concerns of the RMB RPers, who are, at least on some level, affected by the decisions made in elections and legislation.

 

[St George]

As the Lead RP Moderator and thus responsible for both the Forum and RMB RP teams and community, can confirm, I'm interested in the concerns of both Forum and RMB RPers.

 

[Darcania]

You can divide the community as much as you wish. Several forum RPers do not care for the RA or GP in general - should we cut them out? They may try and rally together to make their agenda heard - should we keep them down? In my eyes, no.

 

[Prydania]

It assumes that all RMB posters share the same ideologies and will vote the same way. Last I checked, sharing the same platform of communication does not suddenly make everyone agree. If that was the case, there wouldn’t be any discussion with this bill and we would have it pass with 100% of the RA for since we are all forum users

If I may share my experiences as a RP mod who has dealt with both communities on the TNP RP Discord server...

I won’t claim that all RMBers have a singular agenda when it comes to regional politics but I will say that in my experience? There is a very prevalent opinion of “fuck the forums” among the TNP RMB RP community.

I have experienced this first hand, I’ve seen it first hand. I’ve had RMB RP mods admit it to me.

Does this mean every RMB user wants to stick it to the forums? No. In my experience, however, there is a sense among that community that is very much “us against them.”

So I have to say that I disagree with the Delegate’s dismissal of Sil Dorsett’s concern.

There is very much a culture of hostility towards the Forums in the RMB and to dismiss it would be foolish.

Show me one RMB RP-centric member that actually cares about the concerns of the Forum RP community.

This caught my eye. And it reflects my sentiments exactly. As well as my apprehensions regarding the current proposed amendment.

Strip away the political grandstanding and what we have on this forum is a community. And given my experiences I’ve mentioned above? I am unsure if allowing the RMB to fundamentally alter how the forum-based community works is the best thing.

I do not wish to drag St George into a position he doesn’t agree with, so I’ll state upfront that this is entirely my own opinion.
That being said? When he announced his return as a citizen of TNP he said something that struck me as fundementally true. That he has built one of, if not the, best RP communities in NS today.

I agree with that sentiment. I stand by that sentiment. I would put the TNP Forum RP community up against any other RP community in NS. I would even put it up against our RMB RP community.
It’s a fantastic group of people with some of the most rewarding world building and storytelling I’ve been involved in, and I’ve been RPing in NS since 2006.

And it’s a community that I feel could be threatened if RMB players opt to move the centr of TNP government away from the forums.

Make no mistake. That would be a disaster on its own. It would also, however, kill the forum-based RP community.

And that would be a damn tragedy.
I’ve seen the RMB RP community in action. It is what it is. It’s not my cup of tea. That’s why I RP on the forums. And I have no interest in joining the RMB RP community.

So I feel I need to advocate for one part of what I feel is an exceptional forum community here. Because this proposal does open the door to marginalize the forum.

And that...that would represent the end of TNP as we know it. The TNP that’s endured as long as it has.

To the point about the need to ensure that everyone is has a voice-
I am relatively new to TNP, but as I said above? I am not new to NS. I know that there used to be programs in place where community managers would guide people to the forum. Ensuring that everyone who wanted a voice in regional government got one.

Such programs could be restarted in TNP to ensure that people on the RMB are given a fair chance to engage with our political system.

So yes, there is a common element of resentment to the forum on the RMB.
And yes, I believe this amendment opens the door to marginalize and dump the forums in the future.
An event that would marginalize and ultimately break apart the best RP community in the best region-based community in NS.

So no. For the sake of the forum’s community? I can’t support this amendment.

 

[Darcania]

Why would the forum RP community be destroyed in the absurdly low chance that the government is moved to the RMB? Forum RP has very little to do with the government. Nothing would prevent us from having a thriving community on these forums without the government being located here - if for some strange reason the forum admins take down these forums entirely (also an absurdly low chance) when the government moves, then I have a server and software to personally host new forums just to eat my own words here if that happens. The only thing the forum RPers have to lose is the MoCU, and that Ministry is the second most active on the RMB behind MoHA - why would it be any less active to forum RPers if the government is moved to the RMB?

 

[Prydania]

Why would the forum RP community be destroyed in the absurdly low chance that the government is moved to the RMB?

It’s a matter of traffic. You risk cutting off a stream of potential recruits for the Forum RP community if people aren’t coming to the forums.
And that downturn in traffic will happen if the RMB replaces the forum as the centre of government.

The only thing the forum RPers have to lose is the MoCU, and that Ministry is the second most active on the RMB behind MoHA - why would it be any less active to forum RPers if the government is moved to the RMB?

Well in addition to traffic? Losing the MoC would also be a blow.
And given how prevalent the “fuck the forum” attitude is among the subsection of the RMB community I am familiar with? I have no confidence in a RMB controlled MoC doing anything to promote the interests of the forum RP community.

 

[Darcania]

I don't believe that actively marginalizing them over vague and unlikely nightmare scenarios will help repair that attitude. If anything it would rather strongly reinforce it.

 

[Prydania]

I don't believe that actively marginalizing them over vague and unlikely nightmare scenarios will help repair that attitude. If anything it would rather strongly reinforce it.

The thing is that I don’t think anyone needs to be marginalized given the current status quo.

Again, I’ve been around long enough to remember when regions with larger populations actively directed RMB posters to their forums to encourage them to partake in the political process. You’re painting me as someone who wants to disenfranchise people. And I don’t. What I want to do is to ensure that the forum remains the centre of TNP political life, because there is a
community here-multiple communities in actuality- that depend on it and are worth saving.

And I believe that with enough effort the forums can remain the centre of TNP political life and remain the venue for maintaining citizenship if RMBers are properly directed to the forum itself.

As for the attitudes of the RMB and how opposing this amendment will only make it worse...right now we have a strong contingent of RMB users with very anti-forum attitudes.
And this is despite the forum community bending over backwards to integrate.

I have seen this anti-forum attitude first hand among the RMB RP community, and I have seen it manifest when either the MoC or the Forum RP community reaches out to them in good faith.

So I have no faith in an RMB-controlled government to actually act in the best interests of the TNP Forum-based communities.

 

[Darcania]

Nothing in this amendment hands the reigns over to RMBers. Nothing. You still have to apply for citizenship on the forums, you still have to vote on the forums. All of your arguments are based on a wild nightmare scenario. This amendment is not for catering to RMB RPers. It is opening up citizenship to active TNPers that might have a strong interest in how the place is run but don't choose to spend their time on our forums. I can't help but point out your attitude about RMB RPers when you and Sil brought them up and started waxing conspiracies over unlikely scenarios.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

There were a lot of fears about giving citizens voting rights instead of RA members. None of those eventuated.

This is a significant change and doubts/concerns/worst case scenarios should be raised.

It’s important that we recognise that they are in fact the worst case scenarios.

I seriously think it is very unlikely that anyone could be elected Delegate and shift our government entirely to the RMB. Or that the Delegate would attempt to marginalise or harm the forum rp community. Our electorate of forum users is huge. It seems unlikely that the RMBers would overwhelm that for the purpose of causing harm. If there was a serious likelihood of this, it would be happening already, irregardless of this change.

I think it’s more likely that the status quo will continue. The person most qualified to be Delegate will win . Any substantive changes to relocating government business or official business would receive severe scrutiny.

 

[Prydania]

Nothing in this amendment hands the reigns over to RMBers. Nothing.

It allows for RMBers to disproportionately swamp the electorate.
Which concerns me because it means that 2/3 majority needed to switch the government from the forums to the RMB is possible.

All of your arguments are based on a wild nightmare scenario.

Yes, I admit that the above is an unlikely scenario. Should this amendment pass? It becomes a possibility worth addressing, however.
And I feel as if I have a duty to stand up for concerns related to a community I feel strongly about, however unlikely this scenario is.

I can't help but point out your attitude about RMB RPers when you and Sil brought them up and started waxing conspiracies over unlikely scenarios.

First? I merely used Sil’s post as a jumping off point for my own thoughts. If Sil agrees or disagrees with me? He’s free to say so but it’s unfair to lump him in with my position unless he states he agrees with me.

Secondly, I strongly object to the notion that what I’m arguing amounts to a promoting a conspiracy theory.
I am raising concerns about a potential scenario this amendment would allow for. One that, however unlikely, would negatively impact a subject of TNP that I feel is worth standing up for.

Thirdly my opinion that RMBers, at least RMB RPers, are hostile to the forum community is based on my own experiences. I’m arriving at that conclusion honestly.

 

[Prydania]

It’s important that we recognise that they are in fact the worst case scenarios.

Yes, it is. And a worst case scenario is worth discussing. Otherwise you’ve gone in half cocked.

And in this case? I am unapologetically advocating for a section of the TNP forum-based community that I feel strongly about. One that, in the event of the worst case scenario this amendment opens up, would be negatively effected.

I seriously think it is very unlikely that anyone could be elected Delegate and shift our government entirely to the RMB.

Likely? No, but this amendment makes it easier to do that. And so we need to consider that.

 

[Kyle]

I don’t think a forum or RMB post every 30 days is too difficult to maintain. The addition of RMB posting under this bill would actually add even more flexibility in that regard.

Yes, I am actually in agreement with you. I was just relating my experience. What I was saying is that I came from a GCR that has had even laxer requirements. I was proud of my ex-region because of its courage not to have such requirements. I was proud to say that during that time, it was the most open of all the GCRs.

When I was there with the lax requirements, I haven't seen the worst case scenario in which hostile RMBers were swamping the forum electorate. (Mind you, there were similar forumite/gameside divisions there back then.) As a native of that GCR back then, I'll say outright that I was also annoyed by the vote-stackers who only come to vote; they just did the minimal requirement of keeping a nation in the region and did nothing to develop the region. So, when the elite of the region instituted strict posting requirements, did the vote-stacking cease? No, it didn't. Vote-stacking can occur despite posting requirements and whatever hurdles and hoops the region will try to put up. Vote-stacking occurs because people want to game the system for their ends. But by including the gameside people in this initiative, it means we will have more citizens. A larger constituency will be more difficult to game and stack for or against. So, in effect, this proposal, which has the potential to expand our voting population, will actually strengthen the region.

Also, I believe that posting requirements do present a barrier for participation, which is why I would support lowering the hurdles for participating.

As for the alleged "us vs them" feeling of people in the RMB - maybe we can evaluate and examine the reasons why there is even such a thing? Why are they feeling that way? Maybe they were feeling left out by forumites, a gap that this initiative can somehow bridge? Because in order to be able to exercise their citizenship rights, they have to come to the forum. I'm thinking of it as a huge recruitment possibility/incentive as well.

 

[Wonderess]

It may be helpful to the proponents of this bill to couple its revision of citizenship requirements with some other action that tries to unify the two subcommunities. For instance, more RP events or even getting RMBers to the forums the same way government officials visit the RMB and answer questions. Both the forum and RMB as public spaces are important for TNP and the value of both should be made to be realized by everyone in the region. Also, I would like to hear from those who frequent the RMB. There input in this matter should be heard and considered.

 

[bootsie]

Unfortunately, I disagree with this amendment. Our government is housed on the forum. If a citizen cannot make the attempt to at least make one post on the forum within thirty days, they should not be electing our Delegate.

The North Pacific makes it really simple to obtain citizenship, and not that hard to keep. I’m not as active as I used to be, but I’m still a citizen, as is many of our Security Councillors that just post when needed.

The West Pacific is very open to who it lets be a citizen, but I don’t think we should use TWP as an example because if we were couped, they’d just say our new “elected” Delegate was the leader of the region. Which is bad on multiple levels.

I’m not saying screw the RMB, it’s a fundamental part of our region, but there’s a reason we hold business here instead of on the RMB or even Discord.

 

[Darcania]

We hold our government here for the organization that comes with it. That doesn't mean by itself that we should close off the electorate of the region that government represents. Just because the USA's government is in Washington, D.C., doesn't mean that only people there should vote.

 

[TlomzKrano]

I find the argument lacking that people may find it hard to make a single post once per month on the forums. From recurring RP to WA votes that happen countless times per month, there are plenty of ways to fill the requirement of making a single post every 30 days. Special cases aside, I would question how many people who don't participate in anything forum based actually vote in elections much less have enough knowledge to make competent decisions on candidates.

The RMB is effectively a quick moving message board where not much official business should be held, I for one find it shocking that people manage to hold any form of understandable RP there (more power to them tho). But all regional affairs are held on the forums, and thus should be the epicenter of where those who wish to contribute involvement goes.

Firmly against should this ever make it to vote.

 

[Syrixia]

I should like to preface this by saying that I'm on mobile as I type this, so in regards to Prydania's and Bootsie's arguments I shall simply say I concur before moving on to my own stuff.

That being said, as someone who directly participated in the RMB community for a time, I can speak to you all firsthand on what that community is like. I went into the RMB with an open mind. At that time I was wholeheartedly for integration between the two communities. By the end of it, I was profusely apologizing to @Nightsong, because, in truth, he was right all along.

I will divide this post into three parts: what I think of the RMB community itself, what I think of their government participation, and what I think of what this bill will do.

I should note that while there are many RMBers who I am fond of- kind people with integrity and other great qualities- this is the exception, not the norm. The community itself is dangerously toxic. There is not a day that goes by without some form of drama; and throughout my time there I witnessed not only numerous controversies (some of which I was even whisked into) but also flaming and drama between community members, both of which did nothing but turn me off. Hell, TNP RP Moderation got involved a number of times. I strongly believe that formally integrating such a community into our own will sow toxicity and chaos and do very little to improve our region. Not to mention, if Eraver and others like him have showed us anything, it's that not only is there toxicity on the RMB but there are numerous spammers and trolls.

This leads to their participation in government. If the RMB Cabinet AMA showed us anything, it's that RMBers already know about their regional government. I saw numerous people who instantly knew who Siwale was, for example, and many knew more about what he does than just who he is. When we see RMBers coming to the forum to help in government, we are seeing true dedication, just like we would see from those on the forum who, when they join the Executive Staff, take the time to participate in it and contribute to the community. Hell, we had an RMBer run for elected office not too long ago.

With all that being said, this is my opinion on what this bill will do: that being that the bill is extremely dangerous. It will destroy a system we have utilized reliably through various constitutions, governments, and regimes since the beginning of our region. I know, from /talking to them/, that many RMBers not only don't want to use our forum, but they have a disdain for it. Rather than catering to them with this bill, we ought to put more effort in teaching them how to use it, just like we all learnt how to use it when we first arrived here; and just like those RMBers who participate in our government currently learned how to use it when they joined the forum. This bill will set a dangerous precedent.

In addition, I would argue- just as Kyle did- that just due to the nature of the RMB as something we don't completely control- after all, it is not fundamentally run by us, but by NS.net- fully expanding citizenship to the RMB will be a big problem. In fact, I think that it will almost certainly be a security /nightmare/. Is that, and everything else I've talked about, something we need to deal with, just to have people who don't care for the same system that has kept the region going for years catered to? As I said before, if we learned, so can they. And if they do, then, I believe, it is a reflection of their dedication to the community. Not to mention with the introduction of XenForo, joining the forum is as easy as ever.

I'm all for people having their voices heard but this is not the way to do it. I believe that what this bill is proposing to happen is and will be a clear and present danger to our community and our region. All in all, I wholeheartedly and vehemently oppose this bill, and I will continue to do so with everything I've got.

 

[Darcania]

I find the argument lacking that people may find it hard to make a single post once per month on the forums. From recurring RP to WA votes that happen countless times per month, there are plenty of ways to fill the requirement of making a single post every 30 days. Special cases aside, I would question how many people who don't participate in anything forum based actually vote in elections much less have enough knowledge to make competent decisions on candidates.

If uninformed voters are an issue with this amendment to you... then I have some bad news: we have plenty already. Perhaps consider another proposal restricting citizenship to only the informed the way you see it?

The RMB is effectively a quick moving message board where not much official business should be held, I for one find it shocking that people manage to hold any form of understandable RP there (more power to them tho). But all regional affairs are held on the forums, and thus should be the epicenter of where those who wish to contribute involvement goes.

I still honestly don't understand this. Nothing about this amendment changes where the government is held; it only opens up citizenship to all active nations, not just forum active nations. Why should only forumers decide entirely how our government is run and who runs it? We're the Regional Assembly. We're still being held on the forums by our own decision for the organization it provides. This amendment doesn't change that. Why should our Regional Assembly lock out those who are in the region and thus have a stake in how it is run but who decide they prefer to engage in the gameside aspects of the region?

 

[Darcania]

I'm done debating this. Now I personally see why the RMB sees the forums as some core group of oligarchic elitists, and it makes me very sad to see that brought to the forefront over a simple bill to open up citizenship to all active nations.

 

[Syrixia]

I'm done debating this. Now I personally see why the RMB sees the forums as some core group of oligarchic elitists, and it makes me very sad to see that brought to the forefront over a simple bill to open up citizenship to all active nations.

There's a difference between oligarchic elitism and concerned citizens opposing inherently flawed bills with arguments based on experience, facts, and legitimate questions.

That being said this is, of course, all a game, so you're welcome to leave debate at any time and I would never say otherwise.

 

[St George]

I should like to preface this by saying that I'm on mobile as I type this, so in regards to Prydania's and Bootsie's arguments I shall simply say I concur before moving on to my own stuff.

That being said, as someone who directly participated in the RMB community for a time, I can speak to you all firsthand on what that community is like. I went into the RMB with an open mind. At that time I was wholeheartedly for integration between the two communities. By the end of it, I was profusely apologizing to @Nightsong, because, in truth, he was right all along.

I'm going to address this, because the problems you had in the RMB RP community were of your own making, and you burnt them by leaving them high and dry after you volunteered to host something for them. Your experiences of the RMB RP community are not typical at all.

And Nightsong has never been right about the two communities, as the ongoing success of our integrated discord server and history of combined events between the two shows.

 

[Darcania]

I almost forgot - there was one concern with the bill that was raised in the Discord server that should be addressed along with all the others above. Banned forum users could maintain citizenship indefinitely under this new law. Don't know if that's something that's fine to have or not but it's worth pointing out.

 

[Kyle]

I almost forgot - there was one concern with the bill that was raised in the Discord server that should be addressed along with all the others above. Banned forum users could maintain citizenship indefinitely under this new law. Don't know if that's something that's fine to have or not but it's worth pointing out.

There's also a concern raised on the Discord server about a puppetmaster asking a lot of friends (with different IPs) to register for citizenship, thus bypassing the admin checks for multiple cits from one IP. The puppetmaster can then maintain citizenship by merely posting in the RMB (where his IP cannot be checked) and not on the forums (where his IP can be checked).

One possible solution (said by MadJack, so credit goes to him): a "double" requirement. For example, the 30 day posting requirement may be made in the forum or in the RMB, and a X* day post requirement that must be made in the forum (ostensibly to flag multiple cits from a single IP and to weed out banned users). Such a thing, iirc, is already being used in RP to keep your spot on the map, with a 30-day posting requirement anywhere in the forum (doesn't need to be RP-related), but one post every 90 days must be RP-related.

*X days should be shorter than our electoral period.

 

[Syrixia]

I'm going to address this, because the problems you had in the RMB RP community were of your own making, and you burnt them by leaving them high and dry after you volunteered to host something for them. Your experiences of the RMB RP community are not typical at all.

You're clearly turning this on me in an effort to nullify my arguments. The time between when I volunteered and when I left was not a brief one. When I left, it was because I had witnessed infuriatingly numerous instances of drama and I just couldn't take being exposed to that level of toxicity anymore. My experiences in the RMB are definitely typical, or at the very least frequent, as I'm certain you and other Mods can undeniably attest to, having dealt with some of these instances of drama before.

 

[Wonderess]

I do ask that personal squabbles be taken off of the RA floor. This is a place for discussion on the issue at hand and not an evaluation of the character of one another. Thank you IN ADVANCE for your cooperation.