Criminal Trial Reform

Mall

TNPer
So I came up with a new section for an alternative way we could deal with criminal cases.
Section 3.3: Criminal Trial Procedure
11. A standard procedure for all criminal trials will be established by majority agreement of the Court.
12. The Delegate may eject and/or ban a particular nation from the region pending criminal charges against them, or prior to the conclusion of an ongoing criminal trial in which they are the defendant, only when that nation poses a clear security threat and their removal is necessary for the protection of the region.
13. The Delegate must seek the approval of the Court for any such ejection or ban. Where possible, this approval must be sought prior to the nation's removal from the region. Otherwise, it must be sought within one day of the action.
14. If the ejection or ban is performed during a criminal trial against that nation, approval will be at the discretion of the justice moderating the trial. Otherwise, any single justice may approve or deny the Delegate's request.
15. Any nation ejected or banned under this section may file an appeal of the decision. These appeals may not be denied, and must be decided by the full court.
16. The Delegate must immediately provide any nation ejected or banned under this section with a link to the Courtroom and inform them of their right to file an appeal.
17. If criminal charges are not brought against a nation ejected or banned under this section, or if the criminal charges are rejected by the Court, or if the nation is not found Guilty at the conclusion of the trial, any ban against that nation which was imposed under this section must be revoked.


Section 3.4
1. Any nation accused of a crime may choose to apply an alternative procedure, defined herein, rather than that outlined in Section 3.3 of the Legal Code.
2. Any nation accused of a crime, once charges have been brought before the Court, may post "Come at me bro." This may be posted at any point until a final judgment on all of the charges is made by the Court. Upon posting this the trial will be replaced by a single game of chess on lichess.org with a three minute time control, no increment.
3. In this game the defendant will play as Black and the Attorney General of The North Pacific will play as White. The Chief Justice of The North Pacific's Court will serve as a witness to the game.
4. If the Defendant wins then the Defendant is declared not guilty of the charges.
5. If the Attorney General wins then the Defendant is declared guilty and sentenced to whatever punishment the Attorney General sees fit.
6. In the event of a draw or stalemate a second game will be played in accordance with the above rules.
7. If the second game is a draw or stalemate then the Attorney General must immediately resign, and the Defendant becomes the new Attorney General and is declared not guilty of the charges.
8. In the event that either player solicits recommendation, help, aid, or any form of advantage from another person or computer in order to win any of the chess games that player will be declared persona non grata from The North Pacific and will be immediately banned from the region.
 

Crushing Our Enemies

TNPer
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Well you can't deny it would be more efficient.

I don't like the use of "immediately" in the final clause. It should be replaced with "promptly" for consistency.
 

Limerick1

The Legal Eagle
Due to the existence of “best move calculators”, I would argue this is a fundamentally flawed way to determine the course of a trial.
 

BluieGamer

Resident Future Drug Maker
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Limerick, I think Section 3.4.8 covers that.

Can we only use the exact phrase "Come at me bro"?
 

Limerick1

The Legal Eagle
BluieGamer said:
Limerick, I think Section 3.4.8 covers that.

Can we only use the exact phrase "Come at me bro"?
I don’t believe section 3.4.8 is enforceable at all, would we make a citizenship requirement to download a system monitor accessible by the Chief Justice?
 

Crushing Our Enemies

TNPer
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I think giving the chief justice remote access to whatever devices the players are using to certify that no cheating is taking place is just as reasonable as the rest of this proposal.
 

Limerick1

The Legal Eagle
Crushing Our Enemies said:
I think giving the chief justice remote access to whatever devices the players are using to certify that no cheating is taking place is just as reasonable as the rest of this proposal.
That is what concerns me
 

bootsie

Global Moderator
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Crushing Our Enemies said:
I think giving the chief justice remote access to whatever devices the players are using to certify that no cheating is taking place is just as reasonable as the rest of this proposal.
COE brings up a great point, and I think we need to address that some players may have phones/computers that don’t have the latest software, and it may be harder for the Chief Justice to get remote access, so I propose we add:

All Windows devices must be running Windows 10 or later, Mac devices must be running macOS 10.13 High Sierra or later, iPhones must be running iOS 11 or later, and Android devices must be running Android 8.0 Oreo or later. Sailfish OS devices must be running 2.2.0.29 Mouhijoki or later.
 

SillyString

TNPer
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Bootsie said:
All Windows devices must be running Windows 10 or later, Mac devices must be running macOS 10.13 High Sierra or later, iPhones must be running iOS 11 or later, and Android devices must be running Android 8.0 Oreo or later. Sailfish OS devices must be running 2.2.0.29 Mouhijoki or later.
I think we should build this part into our citizenship requirements. Admins can add it onto their checks. It would be inefficient to only discover a citizen cannot comply with this requirement when they are put on trial.
 

Mall

TNPer
Crushing Our Enemies said:
Well you can't deny it would be more efficient.

I don't like the use of "immediately" in the final clause. It should be replaced with "promptly" for consistency.
I don't want it to be prompt, I want it to be immediate.
Limerick1 said:
Due to the existence of “best move calculators”, I would argue this is a fundamentally flawed way to determine the course of a trial.
Try using a calculator with a 3 minute time control. You'll get flagged.
 

Dinoium

Semi-retired legal nerd.
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:facepalm:
Section 4.3 said:
2. Any nation accused of a crime, once charges have been brought before the Court, may post "Come at me bro." This may be posted at any point until a final judgment on all of the charges is made by the Court. Upon posting this the trial will be replaced by a single game of chess on lichess.org with a three minute time control, no increment.
Are we taking the law serious at this point because saying things like "come at me bro" sounds like a fighting phrase, not a phrase for the court. I would like to also point out that legal discussions in court are settled in their respected threads on the forum, not with a game of chess offsite..
Sorry but you don't have my support..
 

SillyString

TNPer
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Dinoium said:
I would like to also point out that legal discussions in court are settled in their respected threads on the forum, not with a game of chess offsite..
Yes, and that it what this bill is proposing to fix! :tnp:
 

Dinoium

Semi-retired legal nerd.
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SillyString said:
Dinoium said:
I would like to also point out that legal discussions in court are settled in their respected threads on the forum, not with a game of chess offsite..
Yes, and that it what this bill is proposing to fix! :tnp:
Good point, let's just hope that gets fixed and not in the final draft :lol:
 

Mall

TNPer
Dinoium said:
:facepalm:
Section 4.3 said:
2. Any nation accused of a crime, once charges have been brought before the Court, may post "Come at me bro." This may be posted at any point until a final judgment on all of the charges is made by the Court. Upon posting this the trial will be replaced by a single game of chess on lichess.org with a three minute time control, no increment.
Are we taking the law serious at this point because saying things like "come at me bro" sounds like a fighting phrase, not a phrase for the court. I would like to also point out that legal discussions in court are settled in their respected threads on the forum, not with a game of chess offsite..
Sorry but you don't have my support..
That's literally the point.
 

El Fiji Grande

Minister of Radio
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I think this is a fun idea, and am pretty sure that Mall and I are going to get along quite well. I think this could be one avenue for settling civil cases should both parties find this an acceptable method. That said, I would prefer not to denigrate the seriousness of criminal cases, and believe passing this amendment would set a poor precedent. I will not support this bill.
 

Mall

TNPer
El Fiji Grande said:
I think this is a fun idea, and am pretty sure that Mall and I are going to get along quite well. I think this could be one avenue for settling civil cases should both parties find this an acceptable method. That said, I would prefer not to denigrate the seriousness of criminal cases, and believe passing this amendment would set a poor precedent. I will not support this bill.
"seriousness of criminal cases" in TNP of all places, now that's a good one :rofl:
 

El Fiji Grande

Minister of Radio
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Mall said:
"seriousness of criminal cases" in TNP of all places, now that's a good one :rofl:
I think in any region, good precedents have not been set. That said, that does not mean we should diminish our standards without hesitation.
 

Mall

TNPer
Limerick1 said:
Under no circumstance will I support this proposal in its current state
Ah a Court Justice afraid that TNP will find an efficient way of dealing with criminal cases. Unsurprising.
El Fiji Grande said:
Mall said:
"seriousness of criminal cases" in TNP of all places, now that's a good one :rofl:
I think in any region, good precedents have not been set. That said, that does not mean we should diminish our standards without hesitation.
I think this would raise how seriously our Court is viewed amongst the regions of NS.
 

Mall

TNPer
Sil Dorsett said:
If this bill passes, would you offer chess classes and accept :voldy: as payment?
Sure I could do that, but I know there are better players out there than me. I'd recommend a few twitch channels to watch for chess stuff, but I'm in the process of getting a curriculum together for myself from a few better players.
 

Limerick1

The Legal Eagle
Mall said:
Limerick1 said:
Under no circumstance will I support this proposal in its current state
Ah a Court Justice afraid that TNP will find an efficient way of dealing with criminal cases. Unsurprising.
El Fiji Grande said:
Mall said:
"seriousness of criminal cases" in TNP of all places, now that's a good one :rofl:
I think in any region, good precedents have not been set. That said, that does not mean we should diminish our standards without hesitation.
I think this would raise how seriously our Court is viewed amongst the regions of NS.
Interesting how you word that, Im not afraid the region will find an effective system, the way your proposal is written i would still keep my job and hold almost all the responsibilities i do now. Please do not boil down my arguments to the job i hold, my objections to this proposal have all been substantive, i oppose it now and i would oppose it if i did not sit upon the courts bench. I don't pretend to believe our system is perfect, i simply do not believe chess is the answer.
 

El Fiji Grande

Minister of Radio
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Mall said:
I think this would raise how seriously our Court is viewed amongst the regions of NS.
While I'm sure this bill, if passed, would improve the chess-skill of our regional community, I disagree with your point that this would raise our standards. Sure, as a new citizen, I can't quite grasp the history of the Courts here in TNP, but I don't think it's right to openly mock the Justices of our region.

I think regional courts are quite inactive in most regions I've come across. That's typically a good thing; these regions rarely have internal disputes worth taking to court. But that does not mean the court is ineffective, nor should it be irrelevant. I think regional courts, while inactive most of the time, really make an impact and positive difference when they are needed.

I think every region should have passionate court officials who understand the legal history, constitution, and precedents set in the region. I believe they should have respect for their important role.
 

Mall

TNPer
Limerick1 said:
Mall said:
Limerick1 said:
Under no circumstance will I support this proposal in its current state
Ah a Court Justice afraid that TNP will find an efficient way of dealing with criminal cases. Unsurprising.
El Fiji Grande said:
Mall said:
"seriousness of criminal cases" in TNP of all places, now that's a good one :rofl:
I think in any region, good precedents have not been set. That said, that does not mean we should diminish our standards without hesitation.
I think this would raise how seriously our Court is viewed amongst the regions of NS.
Interesting how you word that, Im not afraid the region will find an effective system, the way your proposal is written i would still keep my job and hold almost all the responsibilities i do now. Please do not boil down my arguments to the job i hold, my objections to this proposal have all been substantive, i oppose it now and i would oppose it if i did not sit upon the courts bench. I don't pretend to believe our system is perfect, i simply do not believe chess is the answer.
You don't really have any responsibilities as a Court Justice. If you went missing for a month you might get recalled, but only if a R4R came up and people really got annoyed. Otherwise no one really expects anything out of the Court, especially from a criminal case.

El Fiji Grande said:
Mall said:
I think this would raise how seriously our Court is viewed amongst the regions of NS.
While I'm sure this bill, if passed, would improve the chess-skill of our regional community, I disagree with your point that this would raise our standards. Sure, as a new citizen, I can't quite grasp the history of the Courts here in TNP, but I don't think it's right to openly mock the Justices of our region.

I think regional courts are quite inactive in most regions I've come across. That's typically a good thing; these regions rarely have internal disputes worth taking to court. But that does not mean the court is ineffective, nor should it be irrelevant. I think regional courts, while inactive most of the time, really make an impact and positive difference when they are needed.

I think every region should have passionate court officials who understand the legal history, constitution, and precedents set in the region. I believe they should have respect for their important role.
Take some time to study the history of the Court, it's always important to learn some regional history.
 

El Fiji Grande

Minister of Radio
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Mall said:
Take some time to study the history of the Court, it's always important to learn some regional history.
Will do. I have a lot of reading to do, it seems.
  • TNP's Constitution
  • Mousebumples' WA 101 Series
  • Siwale's platform for WAD/goals for this term
  • Entire history of TNP's Home Affairs dispatches
  • All recent TNL editions (since the start of this year)
  • Recent Strangereal and WU44 RPing on the RMB
  • TNP Legal and Court history
  • etc.. I'm sure I will discover more in the coming days
It'll take me a little while to catch up. I'll probably still be catching up two months from now.
 

Limerick1

The Legal Eagle
My views stand as this proposal is outlandish in my opinion, therefore the proposal does not have my support
 
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