Statement on Imkihca

QuietDad:
Period. End of event. Until you have been a forum admin for more than a day and have dealt with the stress of being one, you really don't have standing here. And just picking someone new is not the answer. Forum admins HAVE TO BE the most trusted people in the game. We've all been in the game long enough to understand what happens when they aren't.
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Are you implying the people demanding that the admins responsible for leaking their investigation should actually accept responsibility don't have admin experience? I'm positive we all know what we're talking about, QD.
 
Koth:
QuietDad:
Period. End of event. Until you have been a forum admin for more than a day and have dealt with the stress of being one, you really don't have standing here. And just picking someone new is not the answer. Forum admins HAVE TO BE the most trusted people in the game. We've all been in the game long enough to understand what happens when they aren't.
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Are you implying the people demanding that the admins responsible for leaking their investigation should actually accept responsibility don't have admin experience? I'm positive we all know what we're talking about, QD.
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I'm not implying anything. I just see things "different". Forum admins on different forums sharing that they are "looking into" someone for whatever reason, when the admins have known each other a long time is not leaking. It's being proactive and protective. Seems to me, again, my opinion and there are many others, is I would rather have an "event" where admins have to apologize for wrongly banning or suppressing someone. ask for forgiveness and welcome the person back than not doing anything until someone actually gets hurt.
 
Just to confirm. This has all been swept under the rug now, right?
 
Badger:
It really feels like it is being ignored!
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Probably because there's been no posts on this thread as of late. Great Bights Mum said it's under discussion. What, do you want all admin discussion to be 100% on display for all people?

Let them discuss and don't pry. Doing so gives your case embarrassment.
 
Badger:
Just to confirm. This has all been swept under the rug now, right?
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Badger:
It really feels like it is being ignored!
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That you cannot see ongoing discussions is not an indicator that those discussions are not ongoing.
 
Just like the sands of time eroding the great monuments of humanity, so are the discussions of TNP admin.
 
Badger:
Just like the sands of time eroding the great monuments of humanity, so are the discussions of TNP admin.
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If you want your cookies, wait until the oven's done baking them and stop crying.
 
Syrixia:
Badger:
Just like the sands of time eroding the great monuments of humanity, so are the discussions of TNP admin.
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If you want your cookies, wait until the oven's done baking them and stop crying.
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Oh, I don't want anything; nor am I crying. I am just enjoying the show and laughing. So don't mind me. Please continue with this game of careful consideration and contemplation, because it will make it even more fun for me in the long run.
 
Badger:
Just to confirm. This has all been swept under the rug now, right?
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Great Bights Mum:
Not at all. The matter is still very much under discussion.
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So, it's been three months since these posts, and we still have not seen any of the following:
  • A public explanation of what happened;
  • A public plan to make sure it doesn't happen again;
  • A public statement in regard to the investigation of Imkihca and its findings;
  • A public retraction and apology for the claims made against her by TNP admins at the NSWF, if they were found to be without sufficient merit for action.
Meanwhile, the gossip regarding this incident continues, and people continue to ask questions about it and about the merits of the accusations made. At what point is the TNP administrative team going to be held accountable? Is TNP itself going to hold its administrative team accountable for this incident, or should other regions -- the ones involved in the World Fair that TNP's admins disrupted with these accusations, as well as the ones in which Imkihca is or has been involved, or regions that just don't like serious, unfounded accusations to be made with no consequences -- should those other regions be looking into ways to hold TNP accountable since its administrative team isn't going to be held accountable? A region is responsible for its administrative team. Someone has to be held responsible.

It's been three months. It's time to answer these questions and answer for the role of TNP's administrative team in this situation, in general. No, it's not just time -- it's past time. And as far as I'm concerned, and I think this is the feeling among a great many people involved in a great many regional leadership positions: Time's up.
 
flemingovia:
Therefore, any questions or concerns about this matter should be directed to Root Administrator Flemingovia or other members of the forum administration team, through forum PM or Discord DM, and not to government officials of The North Pacific.
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Syrixia:
Rome wasn't built in a day.
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It's been four months since the incident, three months since the last inquiry made on this forum. That's not going to fly.

St George:
flemingovia:
Therefore, any questions or concerns about this matter should be directed to Root Administrator Flemingovia or other members of the forum administration team, through forum PM or Discord DM, and not to government officials of The North Pacific.
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Members of TNP's forum administration have ignored inquiries about this, made by Imkihca herself as well as others. All part of the "ignore it and hope it goes away" approach that has been apparently being taken for the past few months -- which isn't going to work. It's not going away, because responsible people who take OOC misconduct seriously aren't going to let it. So I suggest that someone in TNP finally address it.

I hope everyone in TNP isn't as flippant as you two are about serious, false OOC accusations being made against a player by TNP's admin team.
 
We are very much still working on this, and we take it extremely seriously. I do regret the length of time it is taking, and I recognize that it plays into a narrative that we are sluggish and non-responsive. Unfortunately, an in-depth internal review of the type we are undertaking does take time, and we have the added constraint of needing to work around the RL schedules of our admins (and others, where we have needed to gather external information).

We will be releasing a report once the review has concluded. I can't go into great detail at this time, but I can say that we have identified a few specific concerns and are working on how to best address them. We also have a (nearly?) final draft of a policy that lays out clear rules on protecting privacy and when information can be released. It remains my sincere hope that we will be finished SOON (tm), but at this point I can't give a firm deadline.

I would also like to address the concern about the admin team actively ignoring people. I am checking with other admins now regarding any private messages they may have gotten, but to the best of my knowledge, we have not received any inquiries (from Imkihca or others) that have been ignored.
 
I’ve not received any private communication on this subject by forum PM or on discord in some months, and any that I did receive back then were responded to.
 
This is just absolutely ridiculous now, you can't just keep fobbing everybody off like this. It's been months since the NSWF thing but it's been over a damn bloody year that I personally have been trying to get answers about my ban from TNP. You've had more than enough time, it seems like you're now actively looking for something just to try and cover your own arses from this embarrassment.
I have tried to make many enquiries of my own only to find myself unable to message the person I wanted to speak to because I'm blocked, don't share a server or to find myself just being ignored while they post in other servers. I'm fed up of this crap coming up all the damn time when I know I've done nothing wrong except speak bluntly. Stop beating around the damn bush and talk to me if nothing else. I'm fed up of this farce.
 
SillyString:
I would also like to address the concern about the admin team actively ignoring people. I am checking with other admins now regarding any private messages they may have gotten, but to the best of my knowledge, we have not received any inquiries (from Imkihca or others) that have been ignored.
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mcmasterdonia:
I’ve not received any private communication on this subject by forum PM or on discord in some months, and any that I did receive back then were responded to.
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r3n, one of the few admins Imkihca could easily contact, ignored DMs from her in regard to this matter.

One of TNP's admins -- I won't publicly say who -- accused Syberis of causing him personal issues when he was contacted, prompting Syberis to cease contacting TNP's admin team at all lest he be the next one falsely accused of harassment by TNP's admin team.

So yes, individual admins have been ignoring inquiries (sometimes in very creative ways!), and the admin team's public silence for three months has also effectively meant the entire team is ignoring the situation. It's absolutely ludicrous that this incident occurred four months ago and the best you folks can do is "we're still working on it." Get on with it. You've falsely accused someone of harassment -- it's kind of an urgent matter. Maybe not for you, but certainly for the person you falsely accused.
 
Cormac:
r3n, one of the few admins Imkihca could easily contact, ignored DMs from her in regard to this matter.
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Thank you for clarifying. I will reach out to r3n, but he has been extremely busy IRL for several months.

One of TNP's admins -- I won't publicly say who -- accused Syberis of causing him personal issues when he was contacted, prompting Syberis to cease contacting TNP's admin team at all lest he be the next one falsely accused of harassment by TNP's admin team.
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I agree that it is best not to contact someone when that causes problems for them. I am happy to make myself available to Sybaris or anyone else who has questions, and I can be contacted here, on discord, or via TG as preferred. There's not much more I can say on that except that I have no intention of accusing anyone of harassment simply for asking questions. If my word is not sufficient assurance, so be it.

it's kind of an urgent matter. Maybe not for you, but certainly for the person you falsely accused.
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I agree with you about its urgency, and I want to reiterate that we have no intention of sweeping this under the rug. We are not secretly hoping that people will forget about this. We harmed Imki, we sincerely regret doing so, and we are doing our utmost to ensure it never happens again - to her or anyone else.

It is my hope that I have not lost all credibility in your eyes, and that you can believe me that we take this extremely seriously. If you do not, I doubt there is much I can say to convince you of my sincerity until the report is released.
 
This is based on a statement we drafted the ninth of January but were advised not to post. As more collective action by TNP administrators has taken longer than originally expected, we dusted this off and added to it.



As a starting point, we would like to profusely apologise to Imki for the harm that was caused to her by the premature passing of information to the NationStates World Fair Committee that ultimately resulted in significant public speculation. Secondly, we would like to apologise to the North Pacific and to our fellow admins for this overstep and wish to assure all members that this will not happen again. Thirdly, we would like to apologize to Lord Ravenclaw for the uncertainty he was subjected to.

We also must apologise to the NationStates World Fair Committee members: Todd McCloud, Sanctaria, Sopo, Almonaster Nuevo, and Ever-Wandering Souls. All members of the NSWF committee invested a significant amount of time towards the success of another Fair. We regret that it was the mishandling (based upon our advice) of complaints raised against Imki that ultimately derailed the fair.

Both of us have been members of the NationStates World Fair Committee for a number of years. At this year’s fair, members of the NSWF Committee received a number of complaints about Imki’s presence. In discussion of these complaints we revealed that the North Pacific’s administration team had been undertaking an investigation into a number of claims made both publicly and privately against Imki by a few individuals. We stated that it was our view that The North Pacific Administration Team would be acting on this shortly. Given the complaints that had been made, and the overall theme of the fair, and with a sense of urgency, the Committee chose to act to remove Imki from the fair based on our characterization of the evidence gathered for the North Pacific forum administration’s investigation. We deeply regret the mistakes that were made in this process.

Without going into detail regarding individual witnesses or internal processes, we should not have told the Committee what we did. The investigation into the complaints raised should not have been made public until it had been brought to its conclusion. To reiterate: we certainly won’t be doing that again.

However, insinuations that we did so out of malice or as some kind of favor are false, insulting, and disruptive to the very goals of the petition aired shortly before the Fair. Long time players should remember that accusations of OOC misconduct for which evidence was eventually provided were often originally dismissed as malicious or politically motivated. Relevant conduct consistently took place in private venues without easily verifiable reporting. And yet refusal to act on such accusations has not infrequently been condemned as protecting the accused.

In these situations there are rarely easy answers. We sought to pursue the best interests of the fair and the participants thereof in a difficult situation, and made mistakes.

To reduce the risk of a similar event in the future, and to make the rules of The North Pacific forum past the Zetaboards terms and conditions more accessible, The North Pacific offsite forum administrators have drafted new policy for that forum. It will be released in due course.



Yours faithfully,
Eluvatar
McMasterdonia
 
So, by Eluvatar's and McMasterdonia's own admission, and confirmed by at least two NSWF Committee members*, they were pretty much exclusively responsible for Imkihca's banning from the NSWF. Based on private conversations I've had with an NSWF Committee member, we haven't even scratched the surface of exactly how deeply responsible they were. Suffice it to say that had they not been on the NSWF Committee and pushed for the ban, it likely wouldn't have happened.

My question is fairly simple: What's TNP going to do about it? That's pretty much been my question all along. What does this community intend to do about the wrongdoing of two of its admins? A half-hearted apology -- in which they still imply at the end of the statement that Imki may well still be guilty of something -- simply isn't enough. These two have faced no consequences for their behavior. Despite violating the trust placed in them as OOC admins, in Eluvatar's case including being an NS admin, and throwing around very serious accusations against someone that they couldn't back up, absolutely nothing has happened. Why are they still admins here? Many communities would have banned them. False accusations of OOC misconduct are OOC misconduct, and it's time for TNP to start treating them as such.

* EDIT: I am referring to public statements by two NSWF Committee members, here and here.
 
I made what was apparently considered to be an inappropriate comment in this thread and am posting my response here.

Regarding SillyString's post in the above thread:

Ah. I do apologize. I misread the date of the last post as April, not March.
I make no apologies, however, for posting it where I did. I agree it was tangential to the topic, but related to the thread as it was intended as a comment as to the timing of the event in question.

Edit: A further point. I do, frequently, disregard what is considered 'on' and 'off' topic. Again, this something that I do not aplogize for. I seem to be quite unable/unwilling to correct this trait, and so it remains.

Also that post was intended as neither an insult nor a dig at the Admin team, but an honest expression of concern and my genuine hopes as to what would occur when you had completed your deliberations.

This was written before going through last couple of days' posts in this thread.

Edit: added stuff.
 
No worries, Isimud. We'd rather keep discussions of this matter confined to one spot, rather than have competing topics in various areas of varying visibility/postability.

Isimud:
It might also be a good place to reinforce our Admins findings regarding that last incident, I use the word 'reinforce,' because I would hope that not only would a formal apology/explanation from our Admins be issued to all that were directly involved, regions and nations, but that such an apology also be made on the main NS forum.
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I personally have no intention of posting anything on the main NS forum if I can avoid it, because I personally think it is a cesspit of depravity only slightly improved from the Jolt days. :P

More generally, I'm not personally convinced of the benefit of formally posting something over there. There's no prohibition on crossposting, mind you - this forum is guest visible, so anybody who wants is free to copy what we've said over there, and a member of the TNP government could even formally post it in whatever regional thread exists now. But most of our admin team is not active on the main NS forum, and I can't really see that changing (see: cesspit), so any questions that come up as a result would probably still need to be asked over here to be seen and addressed. So, having the statement posted in multiple places seems more likely to cause additional confusion and miscommunication.

But, I'm not speaking authoritatively here - this is just what I think. I'll raise the question with the team.
 
SillyString:
No worries, Isimud. We'd rather keep discussions of this matter confined to one spot, rather than have competing topics in various areas of varying visibility/postability.

<snip>

I personally have no intention of posting anything on the main NS forum if I can avoid it, because I personally think it is a cesspit of depravity only slightly improved from the Jolt days. :P

More generally, I'm not personally convinced of the benefit of formally posting something over there. There's no prohibition on crossposting, mind you - this forum is guest visible, so anybody who wants is free to copy what we've said over there, and a member of the TNP government could even formally post it in whatever regional thread exists now. But most of our admin team is not active on the main NS forum, and I can't really see that changing (see: cesspit), so any questions that come up as a result would probably still need to be asked over here to be seen and addressed. So, having the statement posted in multiple places seems more likely to cause additional confusion and miscommunication.

But, I'm not speaking authoritatively here - this is just what I think. I'll raise the question with the team.
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I do understand the wish to keep things in their specific threads, but I'm simply unable to do so and I've tried many times.

I also understand your expression of personal opinion regarding the NS forum, but am unable to verify them from personal experience as the last time that I recall being there was when it was still Jolt.

I do appreciate that you'll bring my comments to the attention of the team. Thank you.
I remain convinced that it would be a good place to collectively post your results and an apology from the Admin team itself, with governmental endorsement. It strikes me as a positive form of penance for an error made and may appease, to some degree, those such as Cormac who would hold those responsible directly accountable for their actions. Perhaps your team could take turns wading through the sewer, with those most at fault serving at point, and answering legitimate concerns and queries and, after some agreeable period of time, request the topic be closed or simply thereafter ignore it, its purpose served.
 
Cormac:
False accusations of OOC misconduct are OOC misconduct, and it's time for TNP to start treating them as such.
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That's way too broad. False accusations are OOC misconduct if they knew it was false and they did it intentionally to fuck with someone. That's not what happened here. Information was shared from one admin team to another in good faith, followed by an error in judgment with bad consequences. It was a mistake, and mistakes happen. That's my read on the situation.

And Cormac, your history here has left you with zero credibility to criticize our community. I, for one, would be happier if you saved your condescension for the Gameplay forum and left us the hell alone.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
I, for one, would be happier if you saved your condescension for the Gameplay forum and left us the hell alone.
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Maybe the TNP Administrative Team should get its shit together already, then, so people can leave you the hell alone.

Given the assorted information that's been coming out recently from various TNP Administrators and NSWF Committee Members, this situation has only become more troubling.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Cormac:
False accusations of OOC misconduct are OOC misconduct, and it's time for TNP to start treating them as such.
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That's way too broad. False accusations are OOC misconduct if they knew it was false and they did it intentionally to fuck with someone. That's not what happened here. Information was shared from one admin team to another in good faith, followed by an error in judgment with bad consequences. It was a mistake, and mistakes happen. That's my read on the situation.
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That mistake, which has gone uncorrected for four months, left a player publicly accused of harassment when there was clearly no actionable evidence of harassment. If there had been, the TNP admin team would have banned her, but instead the TNP admin team determined that she would not be banned. Are you seriously telling me TNP's response to that should be "mistakes happen"? Eluvatar and McMasterdonia need to be held accountable. They should have known better than to push for banning a player and publicly accusing her of harassment without presenting any evidence, based on assertions that she would soon be banned in TNP, even though she wasn't. Whether their behavior was intentional and malicious or not -- and in McMasterdonia's case, at least, I'm absolutely inclined to believe it was intentional and malicious given his closeness with Raven -- it was reckless and irresponsible. They shouldn't still be admins here.

Crushing Our Enemies:
And Cormac, your history here has left you with zero credibility to criticize our community. I, for one, would be happier if you saved your condescension for the Gameplay forum and left us the hell alone.
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I'm not here to make you happy. And if you think my criticism is the worst TNP is going to have to deal with, I'll just remind you that I'm hardly the only person in NationStates who is angry at the way TNP has handled this situation, with a flippant disregard for the seriousness of it, like rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to you. You can dismiss me if you want because of "my history," but are you going to dismiss TNP's allies and governments of other Feeders and Sinkers? Maybe you will. TNP seems to think it's above any consequences. I hope that proves to be incorrect.
 
Punishing our admins for the mistake isn't going to make things any better. What will make things better is exactly what they're doing: revising their procedures to better regulate when information is shared, to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening again. I am also happy that they are taking their time to deliberate and get it right. I get that our internal processes don't move at the pace of broader NS gameplay. Personally, I prefer it that way. It avoids the jumping to conclusions, the mob mentality, and the execution of personal vendettas that pervades gameplay.

Case in point: Tim and Cormac running their months in here about how Mcm and Elu were maliciously out to banish imki from gameplay as a personal favor to Raven. These accusations have zero evidence to back them up, and fly in the face of everything that is known about their characters. Ironically, you are perpetrating exactly what you are falsely accusing them of: namely, making false accusations with no evidence. You are blinded to this because you are swept up by the mob, and your judgment is clouded by your personal relationships to imki.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Case in point: Tim and Cormac running their months in here about how Mcm and Elu were maliciously out to banish imki from gameplay as a personal favor to Raven. These accusations have zero evidence to back them up, and fly in the face of everything that is known about their characters. Ironically, you are perpetrating exactly what you are falsely accusing them of: namely, making false accusations with no evidence. You are blinded to this because you are swept up by the mob, and your judgment is clouded by your personal relationships to imki.
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Talk to and about me however you'd like, but you may want to watch how you're talking to and about the South Pacific's Minister of Foreign Affairs. On the other hand, maybe I would rather you didn't. Keep digging, maybe then TNP will finally get what it deserves for this whole mess that was entirely TNP's doing.
 
Somehow, I think we'll be waiting a lot longer for your apology for wrongly accusing our admins of malice and bias than Imki had to wait for Mcm and Elu's.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Somehow, I think we'll be waiting a lot longer for your apology for wrongly accusing our admins of malice and bias than Imki had to wait for Mcm and Elu's.
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Yeah, you'll be waiting for an apology from me to anyone in TNP until sometime after hell freezes over, after how TNP has handled this situation. From the admin team, to the government, to the general citizenry, none of you have demonstrated that you at all care about the seriousness of this, what it's done to Imki, what it did to the NSWF and members of the NSWF Committee, the position it has put your friends and allies in, etc. You think you're above having to worry about such things, because being TNP means never having to say you're sorry, never being accountable to anyone, and never having to experience any consequences for your actions.

Given that TNP clearly still has no intention of taking this at all seriously, I hope there are consequences. But I won't hold my breath.
 
Did you miss the part where they said they were sorry and admitted the seriousness of the harm done to Imki? As for accountability, that is the purpose of adding procedures by which the admin team can be held accountable. Everyone seems out for heads on sticks, which will solve nothing, and make many things worse. The real solution is what is already happening: an (albeit belated) apology and updates to the admin procedure.
 
COE, I wouldn't continue to engage with Cormac. No matter what you say, or the admins say will never make him happy. The only thing that would please him would be this community and region going up and flames.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Did you miss the part where they said they were sorry and admitted the seriousness of the harm done to Imki? As for accountability, that is the purpose of adding procedures by which the admin team can be held accountable. Everyone seems out for heads on sticks, which will solve nothing, and make many things worse. The real solution is what is already happening: an (albeit belated) apology and updates to the admin procedure.
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But why should Eluvatar and McMasterdonia experience no consequences for their reckless and irresponsible behavior? They falsely accused a player of harassment, and allowed that cloud to linger over her for four months -- though it will never actually go away. From now on, there will still be people asking questions about the harassment claims made against her by the admin team of the largest and most powerful Feeder, and people still insisting she was guilty of harassment because Eluvatar and McMasterdonia said she was. In so doing, they disrupted the NS World Fair and essentially caused it to be prematurely shut down. This situation so demoralized the NSWF Committee that the Committee no longer exists in any meaningful way, according to one of the Committee's members, which means there may not even be another NSWF in the future. All of that is thanks to Eluvatar and McMasterdonia and the reckless, irresponsible actions they took.

Can you explain to me why there should be no consequences for that? Can you explain to me how firing the two people who did all of that "will solve nothing, and make many things worse"? I don't think it would make things worse for Imki. Maybe at least when people ask her about the false harassment accusations in the future, she can point to Eluvatar and McMasterdonia being fired to demonstrate that those accusations were clearly false and improperly made.
 
Ema Skye:
Ema Skye:
Can somebody remind me what the hell is going on here again? I'm quite confused about all of this...
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Hello?
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Come on Ema, piece it together. You've got a bad habit of asking about things instead of finding out yourself.
 
Malphe:
Ema Skye:
Ema Skye:
Can somebody remind me what the hell is going on here again? I'm quite confused about all of this...
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Hello?
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Come on Ema, piece it together. You've got a bad habit of asking about things instead of finding out yourself.
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I need to say that's a pretty unfair statement. Unless you really want to explain it or point out where it is explained, don't discount someone's confusion. 'Cause just reading this thread does *not* answer the question of what is all this about and what is the backstory. It started well into whatever the story actually is.
 
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