Statement on Imkihca

As many people are aware, The North Pacific’s forum administration team has been looking into complaints against Imkihca. After investigating all complaints, we have determined that there is not sufficient cause to ban her from our forum at this time.

We apologize to Imkihca that details of our ongoing investigation became public knowledge. Ordinarily all such investigations remain private until they conclude and a decision to impose a sentence is reached. That this investigation was made public was a serious procedural mistake, and one that only served to cause unjustified speculation and undue burden on Imkihca. We regret that this happened, and we will be reviewing our internal procedures to ensure that such a mistake does not occur again in the future.

We would like to emphasize that this investigation has been carried out exclusively by the forum administration team, without any involvement from The North Pacific’s government. This is in accordance with standard procedure and our long-standing policy that out-of-character complaints such as those we received need to be dealt with purely as a matter of forum administration, outside of the purview of the regional in-character government.

Therefore, any questions or concerns about this matter should be directed to Root Administrator Flemingovia or other members of the forum administration team, through forum PM or Discord DM, and not to government officials of The North Pacific.

Will any action be taken against the administrator who inappropriately disclosed the investigation and the other administrator who backed him up (McMasterdonia and Eluvatar)? Because I've got to tell you, "reviewing [y]our internal procedures" really isn't sufficient to the rest of the gameplay community and it shouldn't be sufficient to your community either. McMasterdonia leaked an ongoing investigation occurring here and made it sound like it was close to reaching the conclusion that Imkihca would be banned, in order to smear her at a major multi-regional event and see her unceremoniously banned from that event based on his claims. Eluvatar, who is a NationStates administrator as well, backed him up. Meanwhile, not only was that investigation clearly not close to being concluded, it has yielded an altogether different result than the one McMasterdonia and Eluvatar claimed it was about to yield. In effect, McMasterdonia, with Eluvatar's complicity, falsely accused Imkihca of OOC harassment and used his admin position here to bolster his false claim.

I seriously hope false, malicious accusations of harassment made by one of TNP's forum administrators and backed up by another, in which he misrepresented an investigation here that he shouldn't even have disclosed was happening, is not okay with TNP's forum administration team or community. Because it isn't okay with the rest of us.

Also, what is being done about Imkihca's ban from TNP's Discord?

So Imki is innocent?

Yuno:

So Imki is innocent?

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The statement doesn't say innocent, it simply said that whatever evidence they did review did not warrant a ban.

I'd definitely like to see tangible results from this review of internal procedures. The whole debacle surrounding this, particularly given that it let to a World Fair that was effectively ruined, is a pretty serious fuck up.

From someone who missed all of the "fireworks" of this investigation and event, I'm sad to say that the results of all this are quite bad in my view. I completely agree with Cormac in that "reviewing your internal procedures" is hardly satisfactory when the results of that mishap led to the ultimate rage quit of Ravenclaw (can read on his website), potentially (or more definitely) influencing the TNP election cycle, and I assume a blow to our foreign relations. I, and I believe a majority, want more clarity or transparency on what will be done to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. Sad day for TNP...

Egalotir:

From someone who missed all of the "fireworks" of this investigation and event, I'm sad to say that the results of all this are quite bad in my view. I completely agree with Cormac in that "reviewing your internal procedures" is hardly satisfactory when the results of that mishap led to the ultimate rage quit of Ravenclaw (can read on his website), potentially (or more definitely) influencing the TNP election cycle, and I assume a blow to our foreign relations. I, and I believe a majority, want more clarity or transparency on what will be done to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. Sad day for TNP...

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Defining Raven's choice to leave the game before certain people chase him out as a 'rage quit' is entirely unfair, and frankly anyone deciding to re-evaluate foreign relations based off of this is guilty of mixing ooc and ic actions. Of course considering where the majority of that sort of thing is coming from, that's not a surprise.

St George:

Egalotir:

From someone who missed all of the "fireworks" of this investigation and event, I'm sad to say that the results of all this are quite bad in my view. I completely agree with Cormac in that "reviewing your internal procedures" is hardly satisfactory when the results of that mishap led to the ultimate rage quit of Ravenclaw (can read on his website), potentially (or more definitely) influencing the TNP election cycle, and I assume a blow to our foreign relations. I, and I believe a majority, want more clarity or transparency on what will be done to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. Sad day for TNP...

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Defining Raven's choice to leave the game before certain people chase him out as a 'rage quit' is entirely unfair, and frankly anyone deciding to re-evaluate foreign relations based off of this is guilty of mixing ooc and ic actions. Of course considering where the majority of that sort of thing is coming from, that's not a surprise.

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From the discord agora:

Davelands - Today at 5:35 PM
The West Pacific is restricting non-RMB communication with TNP effective immediately. We hope that the off-site admins are disciplined properly for their actions. You may reach out to me via PM. Our ambassador remains on the job.(edited)


It is already affecting our foreign affairs. As for what to call Raven's leave, rage quit was the closest I could relate it to as I don't fully understand all the details yet. Didn't mean for that word/phrase to cause any insult.

Clearly some other regions don't understand the firewall between our government and our admin team. Diplomatic sanctions are an entirely inappropriate response to perceived admin misconduct.

Crushing Our Enemies:

Clearly some other regions don't understand the firewall between our government and our admin team. Diplomatic sanctions are an entirely inappropriate response to perceived admin misconduct.

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You know what's really an entirely inappropriate response to admin misconduct? Doing nothing about it and blaming others for responding when you refuse to clean up your own mess.

Don't pretend there aren't in-game responses to OOC misconduct all the time, or that TNP hasn't participated in them before. It's hypocritical of you folks to decry in-game responses to OOC misconduct just because it's now affecting you.

The issue isn't that it's an IC response to OOC behavior - I have no problem with that in general. What I find ludicrous is that people are getting mad at the region of TNP when their problem is with the TNP admin team. Unless people are suggesting that we move forums because a couple of our admins shared details of an ongoing investigation that they shouldn't have done, I don't understand what we're being sanctioned for. Gameplay sanctions have 0 effect on the admin team, and the gameplay government has very little to do with what people are mad about.

Crushing Our Enemies:

The issue isn't that it's an IC response to OOC behavior - I have no problem with that in general. What I find ludicrous is that people are getting mad at the region of TNP when their problem is with the TNP admin team. Unless people are suggesting that we move forums because a couple of our admins shared details of an ongoing investigation that they shouldn't have done, I don't understand what we're being sanctioned for. Gameplay sanctions have 0 effect on the admin team, and the gameplay government has very little to do with what people are mad about.

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You need to replace the admins.

The admins in my Forums would never leak.

Just like TNP, our individual regions can choose to act in the exact manner that we see fit in the face of this egregious behavior. If tangible actions were taken against the various offenders involved: Lord Ravenclaw, McMasterdonia, and Eluvatar instead of lip service and vagaries then the need for discussion of IC action would not be there. However, there has been no tangible sign of retirement as promised by Lord Ravenclaw. I have less confidence that any sanctions will be placed on the offending admin; who honestly ruined a wonderful annual moment in the NSWF with their selfish and hypocritically disturbing behavior.

Generally in life I have found when a enough of your friends come to you and tell you that you are making a mistake; eventually you listen.

Lord Ravenclaw has already voluntarily resigned from the administration team.

Edit: In case it needs saying, given that not everyone following along is familiar with how TNP works, he has not resigned his citizenship or his positions as a government official, and has not withdrawn from the ongoing election. Admin roles are entirely separate from government. Any questions about a political retirement would need to be directed to Raven himself.

Cormac:

Will any action be taken against the administrator who inappropriately disclosed the investigation and the other administrator who backed him up (McMasterdonia and Eluvatar)? Because I've got to tell you, "reviewing [y]our internal procedures" really isn't sufficient to the rest of the gameplay community and it shouldn't be sufficient to your community either. McMasterdonia leaked an ongoing investigation occurring here and made it sound like it was close to reaching the conclusion that Imkihca would be banned, in order to smear her at a major multi-regional event and see her unceremoniously banned from that event based on his claims. Eluvatar, who is a NationStates administrator as well, backed him up. Meanwhile, not only was that investigation clearly not close to being concluded, it has yielded an altogether different result than the one McMasterdonia and Eluvatar claimed it was about to yield. In effect, McMasterdonia, with Eluvatar's complicity, falsely accused Imkihca of OOC harassment and used his admin position here to bolster his false claim.

I seriously hope false, malicious accusations of harassment made by one of TNP's forum administrators and backed up by another, in which he misrepresented an investigation here that he shouldn't even have disclosed was happening, is not okay with TNP's forum administration team or community. Because it isn't okay with the rest of us.

Also, what is being done about Imkihca's ban from TNP's Discord?

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From the man who overthrew Osiris' democratic government using forum administration as a weapon to do so? You have no room to talk.

Cormac:

Crushing Our Enemies:

Clearly some other regions don't understand the firewall between our government and our admin team. Diplomatic sanctions are an entirely inappropriate response to perceived admin misconduct.

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You know what's really an entirely inappropriate response to admin misconduct? Doing nothing about it and blaming others for responding when you refuse to clean up your own mess.

Don't pretend there aren't in-game responses to OOC misconduct all the time, or that TNP hasn't participated in them before. It's hypocritical of you folks to decry in-game responses to OOC misconduct just because it's now affecting you.

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Don't pretend you have the best interests of this community at heart.

Yuno:

Crushing Our Enemies:

The issue isn't that it's an IC response to OOC behavior - I have no problem with that in general. What I find ludicrous is that people are getting mad at the region of TNP when their problem is with the TNP admin team. Unless people are suggesting that we move forums because a couple of our admins shared details of an ongoing investigation that they shouldn't have done, I don't understand what we're being sanctioned for. Gameplay sanctions have 0 effect on the admin team, and the gameplay government has very little to do with what people are mad about.

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You need to replace the admins.

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Are you saying every admin of TNP needs to be replaced?

Artemis:

Yuno:

Crushing Our Enemies:

The issue isn't that it's an IC response to OOC behavior - I have no problem with that in general. What I find ludicrous is that people are getting mad at the region of TNP when their problem is with the TNP admin team. Unless people are suggesting that we move forums because a couple of our admins shared details of an ongoing investigation that they shouldn't have done, I don't understand what we're being sanctioned for. Gameplay sanctions have 0 effect on the admin team, and the gameplay government has very little to do with what people are mad about.

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You need to replace the admins.

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Are you saying every admin of TNP needs to be replaced?

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You know fully well that wasn't my point. It was an emotional post which I apologize for. I just think that if an admin mishandles real life information, the admin needs to get replaced. Heck, I logged onto this forum a lot of times while at my real life school.

I was asking for clarification. Emotions seem to be high all around, but calling for admins to be replaced is not something that should be done based on emotional arguments. Admins, as you and I both are aware, have to deal with sensitive and private information ranging from IP's to investigations into harassment. They are still humans, they will occasionally make mistakes. The Admin team has stated that mistakes were made and have apologized to Imki for that mistake. They have gone one to say they will be reviewing their procedures to make sure that something like this does not happen again.

What that will entail, I do not care to speculate as I am not a member of that team. But I imagine that they will be able to draw on the experiences of members of the admin team such as r3n, who was part of the very thorough and profession investigation into Brunhilde. I believe that other admins on the team have their own experiences with these types of investigations and will come together to improve these processes.

Calling for the heads of admins is not the solution. Calling for individuals who have given untold hours of work and dedication to this reason is not an answer. If they are to leave then that will create more problems than it would solve. The remaining admins would have to pick up the slack of administrative duties, IP checks, forum requests, maintenance, as well as training new admins to replace those who were lost. The admins who made mistakes need the chance to learn from this mistake and make sure they don't let it happen again and become better admins for it.

Letting emotions sway your opinions is not what TNP and NS needs right now. If you are letting your emotions be your source of reason, take a step back, take a breath, a break, count to 100, or whatever it is that you need to let your emotions simmer. When you are able to think clearly, come back and take a look at the information with clear and logical eyes. I am not saying emotions should not be considered but we cannot let emotions rule our actions.

thank you, Atremis, for a measured and considered response.

As the OP says, a question was considered by the admin team who, in the end, came to the right conclusion. The discussions took longer than i would have liked (Christmas has something to do with that) but we got there. Along the way the admin team made serious mistakes and caused unnecessary hurt. We have apologised for that, publically. I am happy to do so again.

The admin team in TNP is always just that - a team. We receive collective praise when things go well, and accept collective blame when things go wrong. As a root admin I am certainly not going to be throwing any individual or individuals to the circling sharks. All the admins in TNP have given hundreds if not thousands of hours to this community, and I value, trust and respect them all. One mistake does not negate that.

What we are going to do is, as the OP says, make sure this never happens again in TNP.

flemingovia:

The admin team in TNP is always just that - a team. We receive collective praise when things go well, and accept collective blame when things go wrong. As a root admin I am certainly not going to be throwing any individual or individuals to the circling sharks. All the admins in TNP have given hundreds if not thousands of hours to this community, and I value, trust and respect them all. One mistake does not negate that.

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You're making excuses for retaining two admins who used their positions here to make false accusations of OOC harassment.

That's the bottom line here, no matter how much you and certain other people try to obfuscate. McMasterdonia, with Eluvatar's backing, misrepresented an investigation here in TNP that wasn't even supposed to be disclosed, to falsely accuse Imkihca of OOC harassment. As a result of that, she was banned from the NS World Fair and the NS World Fair was entirely derailed. That's what happened. And you are retaining these two people on your admin team despite their egregious OOC false accusations against another player. False accusations of OOC misconduct are a form of OOC misconduct. They have engaged in serious OOC wrongdoing against another player. What are you going to do about it?

If you really have to insist on collective responsibility, then maybe all of you should step down and an entirely new admin team should be selected. But what should not happen is that the two admins responsible for this egregious abuse of their positions and false accusations against another player should escape this situation with no consequences. Otherwise how is anyone ever supposed to trust TNP's admin team again? If your admins are making false OOC accusations and there are no consequences for them, how can anyone trust TNP's admin team to do anything right when it comes to OOC misconduct? Something has to be done about this. And yes, it does affect your entire region, because if your admin team won't do something about it then it falls to the rest of the community to do something about your admin team. This can't just be swept under the rug. Somebody is going to have to be held accountable with real consequences.

I can't believe I'm even having to say any of this in a region that has crusaded against OOC misconduct, a region in which Asta is an admin. I guess consequences for OOC misconduct only apply to others, but not to TNP and their admin team? That's the message you're sending.

Cormac:

flemingovia:

The admin team in TNP is always just that - a team. We receive collective praise when things go well, and accept collective blame when things go wrong. As a root admin I am certainly not going to be throwing any individual or individuals to the circling sharks. All the admins in TNP have given hundreds if not thousands of hours to this community, and I value, trust and respect them all. One mistake does not negate that.

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You're making excuses for retaining two admins who used their positions here to make false accusations of OOC harassment.

That's the bottom line here, no matter how much you and certain other people try to obfuscate. McMasterdonia, with Eluvatar's backing, misrepresented an investigation here in TNP that wasn't even supposed to be disclosed, to falsely accuse Imkihca of OOC harassment. As a result of that, she was banned from the NS World Fair and the NS World Fair was entirely derailed. That's what happened. And you are retaining these two people on your admin team despite their egregious OOC false accusations against another player. False accusations of OOC misconduct are a form of OOC misconduct. They have engaged in serious OOC wrongdoing against another player. What are you going to do about it?

If you really have to insist on collective responsibility, then maybe all of you should step down and an entirely new admin team should be selected. But what should not happen is that the two admins responsible for this egregious abuse of their positions and false accusations against another player should escape this situation with no consequences. Otherwise how is anyone ever supposed to trust TNP's admin team again? If your admins are making false OOC accusations and there are no consequences for them, how can anyone trust TNP's admin team to do anything right when it comes to OOC misconduct? Something has to be done about this. And yes, it does affect your entire region, because if your admin team won't do something about it then it falls to the rest of the community to do something about your admin team. This can't just be swept under the rug. Somebody is going to have to be held accountable with real consequences.

I can't believe I'm even having to say any of this in a region that has crusaded against OOC misconduct, a region in which Asta is an admin. I guess consequences for OOC misconduct only apply to others, but not to TNP and their admin team? That's the message you're sending.

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It seems like the only solution to please you, and really The West Pacific for that matter, is to see McMasterdonia and Eluvatar dragged through the dirt. Being a loyal member of this community, something you aren’t, I find that one mistake does not warrant this kind of action.

I will not call for the removal of any member of our admin team, but hope they use the best judgement in future discussions.

The East Pacific? What??? I'm speaking as a real person and a member of this community for almost two years including senior year in high school. I write a long ass newspaper article for TNP every month and I do my recruitment telegram rows for TNP. My opinion and feelings is just as important as any citizen here.
I'm not talking about The East Pacific, you want a gameplay opinion, get it from my gameplay foreign affairs minister. I no longer call for the removal of admins upon hearing that it's just McM and Eluvatar, who are trustworthy figures and the fact that you admins published this in tne first place takes a lot of bravery and transparency, so thanks for being transparent. I'll be brutally honest, though.
NS was divided in half literally because you took a year to publish this. I'm not even talking about people from TWP/Osiris, I saw divided people in TNP and TSP too. You should have published an official reason when you started with that discord ban. Many people thought she did something really bad to deserve a discord ban, and she kept saying she didn't do shit for a year. And then weeks later, find out there's no evidence. Its the most stupid thing I'd seen on this game.

One year of turmoil, OOC stress and slander from both sides and their supporters, in all aspects of the Ns community. There is no politics in this. No one was happy.

I know, this is not your fault

But please get smarter next time.

Bootsie:

It seems like the only solution to please you, and really The East Pacific for that matter, is to see McMasterdonia and Eluvatar dragged through the dirt. Being a loyal member of this community, something you aren’t, I find that one mistake does not warrant this kind of action.

I will not call for the removal of any member of our admin team, but hope they use the best judgement in future discussions.

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When that "one mistake" is using one's admin position to falsely accuse someone of harassment, it does in fact warrant removal from an admin team. By your standard, TNP shouldn't have terminated its relations with USSD based on its Founder's "one mistake."

TNP's admins aren't exempt from consequences for their OOC misconduct just because it's TNP and TNP thinks it's above the rules.

Yuno:

The East Pacific? What??? I'm speaking as a real person and a member of this community for almost two years including senior year in high school. I write a long ass newspaper article for TNP every month and I do my recruitment telegram rows for TNP. My opinion and feelings is just as important as any citizen here.
I'm not talking about The East Pacific, you want a gameplay opinion, get it from my gameplay foreign affairs minister. I no longer call for the removal of admins upon hearing that it's just McM and Eluvatar, who are trustworthy figures and the fact that you admins published this in tne first place takes a lot of bravery and transparency, so thanks for being transparent. I'll be brutally honest, though.
NS was divided in half literally because you took a year to publish this. I'm not even talking about people from TWP/Osiris, I saw divided people in TNP and TSP too. You should have published an official reason when you started with that discord ban. Many people thought she did something really bad to deserve a discord ban, and she kept saying she didn't do shit for a year. And then weeks later, find out there's no evidence. Its the most stupid thing I'd seen on this game.

One year of turmoil, OOC stress and slander from both sides and their supporters, in all aspects of the Ns community. There is no politics in this. No one was happy.

I know, this is not your fault

But please get smarter next time.

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This is why I should never post early in the morning. I meant TWP, not TEP. And I clearly didn’t mean to fire back at you, Yuno.

Yuno:

And then weeks later, find out there's no evidence.

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I am unsure how you came to this conclusion.

Is it your genuine belief that it would have taken us much time at all to make a decision if there had been no evidence to consider?

I recognize that our admin team is frequently accused of being slow, but I do not believe that we are incompetent.

Crushing Our Enemies:

The issue isn't that it's an IC response to OOC behavior - I have no problem with that in general. What I find ludicrous is that people are getting mad at the region of TNP when their problem is with the TNP admin team. Unless people are suggesting that we move forums because a couple of our admins shared details of an ongoing investigation that they shouldn't have done, I don't understand what we're being sanctioned for. Gameplay sanctions have 0 effect on the admin team, and the gameplay government has very little to do with what people are mad about.

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I would imagine the mentality is that due to TNP Administration being relatively invulnerable from ramifications right now, despite the massive cock up that happened, the TNP Government is being sanctioned as a way to force TNP Administration into doing something about it or risk damaging TNP's Foreign Standing. While I have mixed feelings on the move, personally, it's not much different from other instances of strong-arm diplomacy that we've seen utilized in NSGP over the last couple years.

Prydania:

From the man who overthrew Osiris' democratic government using forum administration as a weapon to do so? You have no room to talk.

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Hi Prydania, I'm Tim. In case you might not have researched your history too well, I'm the person that actually couped Osiris and pulled the trigger on it all. Hell, Cormac was still apprehensive around the time when I ejected and banned the security threat that was Jesus Whale from The North Pacific. I can assure you that the coup would have been successful even if we did not have control of the offsite forum and that bringing that up seems like more of a cheap shot than an actually constructive point. I had enough regional influence to wipe out any challenge to my actions, and the Resistance that formed was the epitome of a headless chicken. Forum Administration was not used as a weapon in the coup at any point, the weapon used was my regional influence and unassailable control of the delegacy.

I am unsure how you came to this conclusion.

Is it your genuine belief that it would have taken us much time at all to make a decision if there had been no evidence to consider?

I recognize that our admin team is frequently accused of being slow, but I do not believe that we are incompetent.

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I don't think anybody doubts there was evidence to consider, but what is clear is that the provided evidence did not merit a ban for harassment. Now, I have my personal feelings and beliefs on the matter which I don't want to get into right now, so let's just go off of the facts. Imki has clearly not been banned from this forum for harassment or anything else. This means that the evidence provided was not sufficient enough to merit committing such an action. Perhaps there's more incriminating evidence out there that never reached your Administrative Team's hands, who knows. However, here's what we do know. Admins of The North Pacific approached the NSWF Committee indicating that Imki was being investigated by the TNP Administrative Team, and appeared to imply that it was pretty strong evidence and that the investigation would be finished soon after. This led to Imki being pre-emptively banned from the NS World Fair, which itself led to the World Fair and all the work people put into it being effectively ruined. Weeks later, this investigation is finally concluded and we find out that the evidence was not actionable. Therefore, what transpired at the World Fair was not only a gross violation of the Administrative Team's Operational Security, but it also could very well be labeled as a publicly made false accusation of harassment. Regions have banned people for that before, with Moneyness being the most recent example.

Personaly, I don't know exactly what I want to happen completely. I'd like to have faith that this internal investigation that the TNP Administration will hold shall bring forth positive results, and I understand that it's a difficult situation that might take a bit of time to resolve. However, you have to understand that this situation, and the complete implosion of the World Fair, is pretty squarely the fault of TNP Administration. People are going to be angry.

SillyString:

Yuno:

And then weeks later, find out there's no evidence.

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I am unsure how you came to this conclusion.

Is it your genuine belief that it would have taken us much time at all to make a decision if there had been no evidence to consider?

I recognize that our admin team is frequently accused of being slow, but I do not believe that we are incompetent.

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I think she meant that you found the evidence didn't support a claim of harassment, after a year of there being behind the scenes whispers otherwise and then a huge blow up at the NS World Fair in which two TNP admins apparently claimed a ban of Imkihca was imminent, prompting her ban from the NS World Fair. In other words, the point she was making, which is clear from the entire context of her post, is that you couldn't have taken longer to handle this and you couldn't have mishandled it any worse than you have.

I don't believe this is the right time for you to assert that TNP's admin team is competent. This would all suggest otherwise. Well, that's not the whole picture. Some of you weren't competent, while others were deliberately malicious. The incompetence of several can be forgiven, but the malice of two can't. There need to be consequences.

Tim:

Therefore, what transpired at the World Fair was not only a gross violation of the Administrative Team's Operational Security, but it also could very well be labeled as a publicly made false accusation of harassment.

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It is my understanding that it was neither McMasterdonia nor Eluvatar who made the fact of our investigation public.

Sharing it with another admin team - in this case, the administrators of the NSWF - is an action of a very different degree.

Edit: To be clear, this is not a statement condoning what happened. But as we conduct our review, it is important that we be correct in exactly what we are reviewing.

SillyString:

Tim:

Therefore, what transpired at the World Fair was not only a gross violation of the Administrative Team's Operational Security, but it also could very well be labeled as a publicly made false accusation of harassment.

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It is my understanding that it was neither McMasterdonia nor Eluvatar who made the fact of our investigation public.

Sharing it with another admin team - in this case, the administrators of the NSWF - is an action of a very different degree.

Edit: To be clear, this is not a statement condoning what happened. But as we conduct our review, it is important that we be correct in exactly what we are reviewing.

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They made admins outside TNP aware of the investigation, and also distorted the investigation to make it seem as though Imki's ban was imminent and that she should therefore be banned from the NSWF. The NSWF Committee acted because they trusted TNP's admins, and when they made a statement about her ban, they were clearly of the belief that the results of TNP's investigation would be forthcoming soon to answer questions and concerns about her ban. That of course isn't what happened, because McMasterdonia and Eluvatar misled the NSWF Committee and in effect made false accusations against Imkihca, using their admin positions here to bolster them. That's the problem. It has nothing to do with the nitpicky semantics issues you keep raising.

Having restated the problem for perhaps the millionth time, I'm still wondering what TNP plans to do about it. You in particular should be pretty outraged by this considering how outraged you once were by admin corruption and abuse of power in Osiris. The stuff that outraged you in Osiris -- banning Jakker without an IC trial for an IC offense -- absolutely pales in comparison to this, yet here you are making excuses for it and evading discussing the real issues by arguing semantics.

Most people probably still don't know the behind the scenes details of this investigation. Much of what was spread during the fair was gossip and rumor and therein lies a huge part of the problem.

First and foremost, a player was put in a limbo situation and left wondering what the hell they had done to warrant being blacklisted as "a risk to the security of fair goers" and therefore potentially regions. When people see that they think, "What could this person have done that's so horrible" and then jump to conclusions. The worst ones.

I wonder, if I had not known Imki and had already an opinion of her character - what would I assume? If it was "Random Unknown Player," I would have assumed the worst because of the vaunted authority that admins hold. That is a very unfair position to put anyone in (regardless of their politics, their background, their popularity, etc - justice applies to everyone equally).

Innocent until proven guilty should be true for any real life or out of character situations because of how harmful and damaging it can be to the person involved in a real life way.

There is a huge difference between disliking someone in a game because you disagree with them and thinking that a person is bad person outside of the game. Harming people's real life reputations or threatening to harm them should not be done (this includes anyone who threatened admins about doxxing them, keep the real life out of it).

Some general principles on how to deal fairly and justly with people (because we're all people not characters) would be helpful and more dialogue about the important things that have been learned about the many real problems faced in trying to protect our community from predators and also to protect our individual members from injustice and what can appear to be witch hunts.

Honestly, I just think that the each community chooses its admins as the most trustworthy (the people who know when I log in from home or school etc) and these people trying to get better at their jobs by talking to the other caretakers would be helpful if people could stop politicizing things. The realest fear is when a person has to stop and think, "Is this about real things or politics?" That is when a thing is totally effed up. If its about real things then we try to act humanely as possible to our friends and our not friends.

I understand that being an admin is hard. I would never want to be an admin because it is a huge responsibility and requires countless hours of unpaid and often unappreciated work. However, it also gives certain authority and that authority must keep itself to the highest standards of ethical behavior.

I do suggest that the admin team talk to the admin team of Euro that handled the Brunhilde case. As the Euro team themselves have stated - including some of the members at the fair - they learned along the way over time and through trying situations. So there's hope that this is a learning process and that things can get better.

I just know a few things, that what I want for TSP is that everyone be treated fairly and that the admins be just and if they make a mistake they own up to it and do better next time. Because I have faith in them. I'm sure TNPers feel the same.

Tim:

Prydania:

From the man who overthrew Osiris' democratic government using forum administration as a weapon to do so? You have no room to talk.

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Hi Prydania, I'm Tim.

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Hi Tim.

In case you might not have researched your history too well...

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I'm quite confident in my research on the matter, thanks. Is there is a reason Cormac isn't answering this directly?

I'm the person that actually couped Osiris and pulled the trigger on it all. Hell, Cormac was still apprehensive around the time when I ejected and banned the security threat that was Jesus Whale from The North Pacific. I can assure you that the coup would have been successful even if we did not have control of the offsite forum and that bringing that up seems like more of a cheap shot than an actually constructive point.

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Not a cheap shot at all.
You, and he, used forum administration to stage a coup in a region. And now you, and he, want to drag two well respected TNP admins through the mud over an honest mistake. I'm sorry. You have no room to talk. It's as simple as that.

Regardless of if you needed to use forum administration as a weapon, you still did. And again. I find it incredibly hypocritical for people who have engaged in those activities to condemn Elu and McM for a misstep.

Escade:

Most people probably still don't know the behind the scenes details of this investigation. Much of what was spread during the fair was gossip and rumor and therein lies a huge part of the problem.

First and foremost, a player was put in a limbo situation and left wondering what the hell they had done to warrant being blacklisted as "a risk to the security of fair goers" and therefore potentially regions. When people see that they think, "What could this person have done that's so horrible" and then jump to conclusions. The worst ones.

I wonder, if I had not known Imki and had already an opinion of her character - what would I assume? If it was "Random Unknown Player," I would have assumed the worst because of the vaunted authority that admins hold. That is a very unfair position to put anyone in (regardless of their politics, their background, their popularity, etc - justice applies to everyone equally).

Innocent until proven guilty should be true for any real life or out of character situations because of how harmful and damaging it can be to the person involved in a real life way.

There is a huge difference between disliking someone in a game because you disagree with them and thinking that a person is bad person outside of the game. Harming people's real life reputations or threatening to harm them should not be done (this includes anyone who threatened admins about doxxing them, keep the real life out of it).

Some general principles on how to deal fairly and justly with people (because we're all people not characters) would be helpful and more dialogue about the important things that have been learned about the many real problems faced in trying to protect our community from predators and also to protect our individual members from injustice and what can appear to be witch hunts.

Honestly, I just think that the each community chooses its admins as the most trustworthy (the people who know when I log in from home or school etc) and these people trying to get better at their jobs by talking to the other caretakers would be helpful if people could stop politicizing things. The realest fear is when a person has to stop and think, "Is this about real things or politics?" That is when a thing is totally effed up. If its about real things then we try to act humanely as possible to our friends and our not friends.

I understand that being an admin is hard. I would never want to be an admin because it is a huge responsibility and requires countless hours of unpaid and often unappreciated work. However, it also gives certain authority and that authority must keep itself to the highest standards of ethical behavior.

I do suggest that the admin team talk to the admin team of Euro that handled the Brunhilde case. As the Euro team themselves have stated - including some of the members at the fair - they learned along the way over time and through trying situations. So there's hope that this is a learning process and that things can get better.

I just know a few things, that what I want for TSP is that everyone be treated fairly and that the admins be just and if they make a mistake they own up to it and do better next time. Because I have faith in them. I'm sure TNPers feel the same.

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This is a well thought out post that applies in many parts to everyone involved in this situation.

I'm going to be frank here. Not because I have a particular stake in this situation, but because I think the reactions to TNP's admins' actions take our gameplay community as a whole two steps back.

The first step back concerns the immediate safety of potential victims of harassment. When a well-founded allegation is made, it's incumbent on the admin team to take actions that would best protect their community. While ideally the privacy of the complainant and the accused (at least at those early stages) would be protected, interim measures may be necessary.

Us gameplayers are exactly the people who have been pushing for robust responses to allegations, including by the on-site team. It'd be a shame if merely weeks after we had our "#metoo moment", our natural instinct when someone who is well-regarded is accused is "but what about the accused's rights?"

We are a bunch of people playing a game in our (hopefully) spare time, not people who are equipped to deal with allegations of abuse or harassment. The 'correct' way to deal with those instances involves an array of professionals who undertake all sorts of tasks, many of which are very far from investigatory in nature. We don't have that. All we have is a community of (overwhelmingly young and inexperienced) online gameplayers, who have to take action in response to (at times) very serious allegations. All of this in the context of a game that often already creates difficult personal issues, both OOC and IC. Sometimes one has to take actions that (especially in hindsight) seem unfair or arbitrary, in order to protect their community.

Innocent until proven guilty does not apply in NS. Given we have to act on information that is provided to us, we have to accept that there will be difficult cases. Is it better to issue a ban on someone who likely did not deserve it, or to allow someone who has perpetrated harassment or abuse to remain a part of the community?

My experience as an admin is that there is no shortage of difficult situations. Most of them do not involve high-profile gameplayers, so they do not make it to long threads featuring prominent NSers. But the pressure on admin teams in those cases to make the right call is already quite high. Keep in mind that we're human too before casting any stones.

Cormac:

here you are making excuses for it and evading discussing the real issues by arguing semantics.

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I do not think the items I am pointing out are mere semantics.

Yuno is not the only one who seems to have supposed that we had no evidence we were investigating, or that the evidence conclusively exonerated Imkihca of all charges. If it had been that easy, it would not have taken the time that it did.

Moreover, Tim is not the only one who has criticized the members of our admin team for the investigation becoming public knowledge. It is relevant to such criticism, and to any appropriate penalty, if it wasn't one of our admins who made it public.

I do not think that I am making excuses for anything, and it is not my intent to do so. At no point have I said that what happened was okay, or that I or any other member of the admin team does not deserve criticism. But the accuracy of criticism does matter, to my mind. If we are to be accused of failing to do our jobs, I prefer that the accusations be factual.

As for evading the issues, there is only so much I (or any admin) can say publicly, or without first touching base with the team, and that is not a terribly speedy process. However, I think it is safe to say that you can expect an additional statement soon. Probably sometime tomorrow, given the current time.

Edit: I have spoken to Imki, and my original statement can be interpreted to be continuing to cast aspersions on her. This is definitely not my intent, and I sincerely apologize for that. Rather, I am trying to point out the difficulties of investigating claims that derive from off-site behavior. These are a unique category of complaints since we cannot simply view the offending post or PM, as well as any edit history it underwent. I am going to offer some lighthearted examples, not to make light of what happened, but to make it obvious from the start that none of the following pertains or analogizes to Imki.

For example, suppose we received a report from one player stating that another player sent them a discord message threatening to go to their home and overturn all of their potted plants. When asked, the reporting player states that they cannot provide logs or a screenshot, because the message was deleted shortly after it was sent. And, because it was a private message, nobody else saw it who might be able to corroborate the threat.

Alternatively, suppose there was a screenshot of the message. Upon review it appears to us to have been teasing or joking, but we note that there is an "(edited)" marker, so we cannot determine what it may have said originally. The person filing the complaint states that it used to be more serious, that they took it as a genuine threat on their plants' well-being, and they want something to be done. The person who made the statement says all they changed was a typo.

Finally, suppose that the complaint was that it happened over voice chat. Naturally there is no written proof, and no recording of the threat has surfaced. When we contact other people who participated in the chat, no clear picture emerges. Some say they don't remember. One says it could have happened, but if so it wasn't serious. One says the person it was said to didn't mind it at the time. One says it was hilarious. One says it happened and they were somewhat concerned about it, but don't want to get anybody in trouble. The person who filed the complaint says it made them very uncomfortable, and they no longer feel safe around that person. The person who made the comments insists that they were just being silly and had no idea anybody was upset.

In all of these cases, we're constrained in what we can prove, and thus in what we can do. We can't definitively state that nobody threatened anybody else's potted plants - but we also can't state that anybody did threaten them. We can ask around, perhaps, about whether anybody else has received a potted-plant-related threat, but that's kind of about it. It could be that the person making the threat is trying to cover their tracks. It could be that the person making the complaint is trying to get the other person in trouble to throw an election. It could be a giant misunderstanding with no ill intent from either party. Heck, it could be a giant misunderstanding with ill intent from both parties. But all an admin team investigating this is likely to be able to say for sure from the muddle is that nobody's getting banned.

This is what I am clumsily trying to express. Off-site investigations are frequently muddled, and Imki is not getting banned.

So to be clear, despite the fact that it was your Administrative Team who leaked the investigation to the NSWF Committee, your Administrative Team that clearly convinced the Committee that the investigation would be quick and would result in a ban, and it was your Admin Team's testimony to the NSWF Committee about the matter that led to Imki's ban from there... you're still saying it's not your fault because it wasn't specifically a TNP Admin who made it public?

Furthermore, those TNP Administrators were on the World Fair Committee, Asta. That means they would have been privy to the discussion for banning her from The World Fair, and I would sure as hell hope they'd have had the basic foresight to realize that such a ban would make this matter public. Maybe I'd understand your logic more if neither McMasterdonia nor Eluvatar were on this committee, but it's not like they dropped the information off and washed their hands of it. They were part of that Committee, and the only logical conclusion to make is that they were therefore part of the decision to publicly ban Imki from the fair or at the very least knew it would happen and should have realized what it would lead to.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not buying this excuse. This whole clusterfuck was started because of TNP Administration, please stop trying to shift the blame.

Not a cheap shot at all.
You, and he, used forum administration to stage a coup in a region. And now you, and he, want to drag two well respected TNP admins through the mud over an honest mistake. I'm sorry. You have no room to talk. It's as simple as that.

Regardless of if you needed to use forum administration as a weapon, you still did. And again. I find it incredibly hypocritical for people who have engaged in those activities to condemn Elu and McM for a misstep.

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Here's the fun thing though, Forum Administration was never used as a weapon. The Root Admin simply viewed out side as the legitimate regime. Enlighten me, oh righteous one, at what point did I use the forum administration as a "weapon". However, even then, it doesn't matter. This fuck up, and the whole clusterfuck surrounding it, is a purely OOC affair. The fact that you're trying to discount someone's concern over an incredibly OOC matter due to their IC actions is concerning, and makes me think you might not exactly have a grasp on the OOC/IC divides within NS Gameplay that define so much of our community. Also, you keep crying about our coup, but last I checked The North Pacific has active relations with the regime our coup set up so... yeah

Tim:

Not a cheap shot at all.
You, and he, used forum administration to stage a coup in a region. And now you, and he, want to drag two well respected TNP admins through the mud over an honest mistake. I'm sorry. You have no room to talk. It's as simple as that.

Regardless of if you needed to use forum administration as a weapon, you still did. And again. I find it incredibly hypocritical for people who have engaged in those activities to condemn Elu and McM for a misstep.

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Here's the fun thing though, Forum Administration was never used as a weapon. The Root Admin simply viewed out side as the legitimate regime. Enlighten me, oh righteous one, at what point did I use the forum administration as a "weapon".

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Anyway when the forum administration allows you to coup you are using it as a weapon.

However, even then, it doesn't matter. This fuck up, and the whole clusterfuck surrounding it, is a purely OOC affair. The fact that you're trying to discount someone's concern over an incredibly OOC matter due to their IC actions is concerning, and makes me think you might not exactly have a grasp on the OOC/IC divides within NS Gameplay that define so much of our community. Also, you keep crying about our coup, but last I checked The North Pacific has active relations with the regime our coup set up so... yeah

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I view couping a region as, at least partially, an OOC action. Too many real life friendships have been negatively effected over this game's history for it not to be.

So no, I have a firm grasp on the OOC/IC divide as it relates to NS gameplay. It's just that crap like this, and the hypocrisy on display by people like Cormac, constantly blur the line for personal gain. And it's why I avoid it like the plague.

[class=administrator]Prydania and Tim, keep this thread on-topic and move your conversation about Tim's coup of Osiris out of here, preferably to PMs.[/class]

Darcania:

[class=administrator]Prydania and Tim, keep this thread on-topic and move your conversation about Tim's coup of Osiris out of here, preferably to PMs.[/class]

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For the record, Prydania, this is why I didn't answer your accusation, and someone should have been dinging you for going off-topic before Tim started responding to you. But then it's pretty clear TNP doesn't like to punish its own when they cross the line.

Darcania:

[class=administrator]Prydania and Tim, keep this thread on-topic and move your conversation about Tim's coup of Osiris out of here, preferably to PMs.[/class]

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Apologies for taking it to this topic. We've had a solid discussion about it in DMs that came to what I think both of us found to be an amicable resolution.

It was absolutely threadjacking and I apologize.

Reading through all of this with years if IT experience and forum administration IT areas outside of Nation States and no desire to ever do it again, I look at this whole situation a little differently. I have NO idea of the specifics of this incident, but I've gotten the jist of it I think and am doing nothing more than offering an opinion here. This is NOT a rant.

One of the most important tasks of a forum administrator is the safety of the forum members, Period. Making sure everyone follows the TOS of the host and behaving comes second and babysitting posts last. The forum admins here do an incredible job of being alert and active and keeping the community active. I'm sure they get whines, complaints and warnings on every member of the forum from somebody everyday. They choose to deal with this.

An investigation was started following a complaint. As I take it, the forum admins let forum admins on another server they were looking into issues with someone. This is called responsibility. The other forum immediately banned this person, creating a stop in activity there and then our admins came forth and said there wan't an issue that needed to be dealt with causing this whole conversation.

Two things. What if the forum admins didn't reach out, the complaint was legit and this person caused harm on the other forum? Would we still sleep ok? If anything the issue is the NSWF may have been premature in banning this individual before waiting for results of our investigation and not doing due diligence of there own.

Everyone involved has known each other for years and conversations happen. Over reactions is so part of NS that you should all just accept now. And if it's the choice of over reaction versus no action, I'll take the over reaction, please.

This should have required nothing more than all the forum admins saying "oops, we over reactwd. We'll try harder next time".

Period. End of event. Until you have been a forum admin for more than a day and have dealt with the stress of being one, you really don't have standing here. And just picking someone new is not the answer. Forum admins HAVE TO BE the most trusted people in the game. We've all been in the game long enough to understand what happens when they aren't.

I give my sincere thanks to the admins of the game's biggest region in doing the job they do and in the few years I've been in TNP, being called out once for being cautious.