Spillover from the Poolside
- Thread starter St George
- Start date
Ceretis
Of air and darkness
To backtrack naziism a step back and then compare it as the example of all socialism and ask if Israili socialism looked exactly the same is a bad argument. That's like Talking about cars and saying a Chrysler isn't a car because it's not exactly like a Ford. We can tell they're both cars.... but because one isn't EXACTLY the same but might tick all the right boxes.... it's not a REAL car. Naziism was one of the socialst/marxist/communists 1000 flavors of socialism that when they fail they're 'not real socialsim'
Socialists like to claim Germany was calitalist because corporations appeared to be left in private hands. This was just smoke and mirrors.
Economists pointed out that under the National Socialist German Workers' Party of Germany; that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only. The German government and not owners exercised the powers of owhership. The government determined what to produce in what quantity, by what means / methods, where to ship the products, and at what price. They also determined what wages would be paid, dividends or income the 'owners' would receive, and eventually that income was reduced mostly to receiving a government pension.
Socialism is collectivism, Naziism is collectivism. De facto control of the means of production was embraced by the NAZI party as the common good comes before the private good, and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. With the individual as a tool of the state, so too is his property.
The NAZI party overprinted and inflated money to pay for their socialist plans since 1933. This inflation helped to pay for public works, subsidies, and rearmament among other things. By 1936 they imposed price and wage controls, creating de facto socialism, to cover up the damage they were doing to the nation through their unsustainable socialist policies.
With inflation, price controls, and wage controls come shortages. (This is a common theme in socialist nations.) Germany experienced these shortages and the resulting rationing and economic chaos. When products are disconnected from price and thus not controlled by demand, the shortages can become dangerous with life sustaining or saving items becoming in short supply while foolish novelties are in great supply. It can also lead to huge stockpiles in some aras and nearly nothing in others because it's not dictated by demand.
This is where governments like the NAZI government, turned to control of what is produced, in what quantity, by what means, what methods, where it is distributed.
This was the German take on socialism slightly different than the Russian version.
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Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism. (a.k.a. first phase communism)
Socialists like to claim Germany was calitalist because corporations appeared to be left in private hands. This was just smoke and mirrors.
Economists pointed out that under the National Socialist German Workers' Party of Germany; that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only. The German government and not owners exercised the powers of owhership. The government determined what to produce in what quantity, by what means / methods, where to ship the products, and at what price. They also determined what wages would be paid, dividends or income the 'owners' would receive, and eventually that income was reduced mostly to receiving a government pension.
Socialism is collectivism, Naziism is collectivism. De facto control of the means of production was embraced by the NAZI party as the common good comes before the private good, and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. With the individual as a tool of the state, so too is his property.
The NAZI party overprinted and inflated money to pay for their socialist plans since 1933. This inflation helped to pay for public works, subsidies, and rearmament among other things. By 1936 they imposed price and wage controls, creating de facto socialism, to cover up the damage they were doing to the nation through their unsustainable socialist policies.
With inflation, price controls, and wage controls come shortages. (This is a common theme in socialist nations.) Germany experienced these shortages and the resulting rationing and economic chaos. When products are disconnected from price and thus not controlled by demand, the shortages can become dangerous with life sustaining or saving items becoming in short supply while foolish novelties are in great supply. It can also lead to huge stockpiles in some aras and nearly nothing in others because it's not dictated by demand.
This is where governments like the NAZI government, turned to control of what is produced, in what quantity, by what means, what methods, where it is distributed.
This was the German take on socialism slightly different than the Russian version.
---
Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism. (a.k.a. first phase communism)
Ceretis
Of air and darkness
Hitler was a self avowed socialist, he employed innovative government work schemes, gave workers benefits, increased jobs by increasing the state, wage controls because all were to work for the state and all would have a job. Free education, free daycare, Nationalized healthcare, 80% tax, gun control, Radically pro abortion, blaming the 1% (the Jews of Germany). None is right wing, none is libertarian.
The Grim Reaper
TNPer
Ceretis:
yay
sounds good
yatta
brill
debatable but ok
Cool - although, on the offhand, how is this not libertarian? Is this not the /opposite/ of state control? http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Libertarian_Party_Abortion.htm
Hmm maybe it's the Holocaust people dislike about Nazi Germany. Maybe this is the really bad part. Maybe this is why people call the NSDAP right-wing - because their most visible policy is fundamentally a right-wing policy because it aimed to create a racial hierarchy wherein some races were permitted to own property and some were not (and some were just killed), and hierarchy based on property-rights is a really goddamn bad thing.
"But but but left-wing policy will create a racial hierarchy!"
That's /not what the argument is/. The argument is that the process of finding a racial hierarchy desirable requires that one adopt a right-wing philosophy.
I'd like to open it up to the floor, though. Of all of these things, what was the worst thing about Nazi Germany? Besides gun control, of course. Don't want all the answers to be the same, right?
Ceretis
Of air and darkness
Hereditary Health Court ruling (Hamburg; March 1934) Abortion on the grounds of racial health was not an offense. This ruling referenced the Weimar Supreme Court from 7 years prior, that allowed the procedure for "medical Necessities." This ruling overruled the capital offense penalty for abortions for Aryan women so long as they were fit under this category.
Sterilization laws (June 1935) were amended allowing abortions on eugenic grounds followed by sterilization, dependent (technically) on the woman's consent.
Heinrich Himmler stated that the tragedy of abortion for German women was that afterwards women often could not have children.
However NAZI Germany planned and implemented the use of sterilization, abortion, birth control, and promoting homosexuality in eastern Europe to to carry out eugenic policies against the eastern nations and particularly the Slavic people. The NAZIs aim was keeping Slavic women for slave labor and weakening the reproduction of Slavic people.
Under the NAZI eugenic policies the party targeted persons deemed "life unworthy of life." This included prisoners, dissidents, those with congenital cognitive and physical disabilities including the 'feeble-minded' epileptic, schizophrenic, manic-depressive, cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, deaf, blind, homosexuals, 'idle,' insane, and weak among other reasons. They placed them in public and private institutions and performed abortions, sterilizations, and euthanization.
Sterilization laws (June 1935) were amended allowing abortions on eugenic grounds followed by sterilization, dependent (technically) on the woman's consent.
Heinrich Himmler stated that the tragedy of abortion for German women was that afterwards women often could not have children.
However NAZI Germany planned and implemented the use of sterilization, abortion, birth control, and promoting homosexuality in eastern Europe to to carry out eugenic policies against the eastern nations and particularly the Slavic people. The NAZIs aim was keeping Slavic women for slave labor and weakening the reproduction of Slavic people.
Under the NAZI eugenic policies the party targeted persons deemed "life unworthy of life." This included prisoners, dissidents, those with congenital cognitive and physical disabilities including the 'feeble-minded' epileptic, schizophrenic, manic-depressive, cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, deaf, blind, homosexuals, 'idle,' insane, and weak among other reasons. They placed them in public and private institutions and performed abortions, sterilizations, and euthanization.
Guy
TNPer
The claim that Nazism is a genus of socialism is ahistorical and has little basis in fact. Nothing in Nazi ideology, nor actions, supported a socialist ideology.
Neither state interventions in the economy (such as production quotas), nor welfare spending, a socialist make. That the Nazi regime attempted to tightly control the national economy, again, does not make them socialist.
A socialist is one who believes in the democratic, or popular, control. Nazism supported, and was compatible with, private profits (for the regime's self-interest).
Again, though, I believe that this discussion is pointless. Nazism's economic policies are frankly irrelevant when assessing it as an ideology. It's not opposed for its economic prescriptions. It's opposed for the terrible crimes it committed. And what they arise out of - violent racial nationalism - is undoubtedly more closely associated with the right-wing.
Neither state interventions in the economy (such as production quotas), nor welfare spending, a socialist make. That the Nazi regime attempted to tightly control the national economy, again, does not make them socialist.
A socialist is one who believes in the democratic, or popular, control. Nazism supported, and was compatible with, private profits (for the regime's self-interest).
Again, though, I believe that this discussion is pointless. Nazism's economic policies are frankly irrelevant when assessing it as an ideology. It's not opposed for its economic prescriptions. It's opposed for the terrible crimes it committed. And what they arise out of - violent racial nationalism - is undoubtedly more closely associated with the right-wing.
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- TNP Nation
- Zemnaya Svoboda
- Discord
- Eluvatar#8517
Left and right isn't actually about ideology much of the time but about coalitions and polarization.
Nazism was a radical ideology of heroic nationalism and xenophobia.
Communism is or was a radical ideology of egalitarian internationalism and class struggle.
Liberalism was a radical ideology of political equality and liberation. It more or less took over the world, so it doesn't count as radical anymore. We're milquetoast centrists now, I suppose.
Nazism was a radical ideology of heroic nationalism and xenophobia.
Communism is or was a radical ideology of egalitarian internationalism and class struggle.
Liberalism was a radical ideology of political equality and liberation. It more or less took over the world, so it doesn't count as radical anymore. We're milquetoast centrists now, I suppose.
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CD is wrong @Wonderess
Of the countries where HIV/AIDS effects more than 10% of the population, Catholicism is:
The largest single denomination:
- Lesotho 45%
- Malawi 19%
- Mozambique 28%
- Swaziland 20-25%
- Zambia 20-25%
- Namibia 14%
- Less than 10% of the population:
- Botswana 5%
- South Africa 5%
- Zimbabwe 9% (some estimates at 17% - this seems to be an error based around the proportion of those in Harare who are Catholic)
- Botswana 0.4%
- Lesotho 0.1%
- Malawi 12.8%
- Mozambique 22.8%
- Namibia 0.4%
- South Africa 1.9%
- Swaziland 10%
- Zambia 1%
- Zimbabwe 8.69%
- Algeria <0.1% prevalence; 99% Muslim
- Egypt <0.1%; 90%
- Morocco 0.1%; 99%
- Sudan 0.2%; 97%
- Tunisia 0.1%; 99.8%
- Gabon 5% prevalence; 88% Christian, 42% Catholic (largest single group)
- Equatorial Guinea 4.7%; 89%; 81%
- Cameroon 4.6%; 65%; 39% (largest)
- Uganda 7.2%; 85%; 40% (largest)
- Tanzania 5.1% - no official statistics
- Central African Republic 4.6%; 80%; 29%
- Kenya 6.2%; 85%; 23%
African nations with 40% or more of the population as Catholic have varying levels of prevalence but it does not lend any further credence to CDs argument
- Equatorial Guinea 81% Catholic; 4.7% prevalence
- Cape Verde 78%; 1%
- Burundi 60%; 1.3%
- Rwanda 57%; 2.9%
- Angola 50% 2.1%
- DR Congo 50%; 1.6%
- Rep of Congo 50%; 3.3%
- Lesotho 45%; 23.3%
- Gabon 42%; 5%
- Uganda 42%; 7.2%