[Private] TNP v tSRoNK

I am not interested in presiding over the case, no. Having a few issues in RL that won't allow me to serve that effectively.
 
flemingovia:
Your honour, the defence must bring the gravest of matters before the court.

I have had a chance to briefly view the SC thread regarding New Kenya. In this matter the defence has been at a considerable disadvantage throughout, since Asta is both prosecuting counsel and a member of the Security Council and has been able to view this evidence throughout.

On looking in the War Room I saw that Asta has given detailed opinion to the Security Council on precisely how the evidence ought to be redacted before presentation in court.



For the Prosecuting Counsel to do this is, basically, an attempt to tamper with the evidence and is in direct violation of the order made by yourself:

Flemingovia (emphasis mine):
i request that the court subpoena any and all discussions held by the Security Council concerning my client.
Click to expand...

Eluvatar:
So ordered: The Security Council will promptly release its records regarding The Swedish Republic of New Kenya.
Click to expand...

Your honour, given the actions of the prosecution throughout this trial I conclude that my client is not being afforded the opportunity of a fair and impartial trial, and ask that the charges against him be dismissed immediately.

The fact that he is on trial for Gross misconduct when this is how the Attorney General acts is laughable.
Click to expand...

Even if your participation is not needed in ruling on this motion, I would definitely appreciate your advice.

I believe a ruling is needed swiftly.

flemingovia:
Dear Lord Ravenclaw,

I am asking you this in your capacity as Vice Delegate. I would request that the defence (and the attorney general's office) be given access to the Security Council deliberations concerning New Kenya (TSRONK), particularly any deliberations that took place after intel relating to New Kenya was received from Pierconium and Aliesyr.

I would be happy to examine and discuss such threads in camera or in closed session of the court should there be security concerns.

I hope you will agree to this, in the interests of a fair trial.

many Thanks,

Flemingovia.
Click to expand...

possibly relevant article
 
I believe that advising you on how to make this decision would adversely impact my ability to impartially review that decision if required.

There are plenty of more experienced members of this court that are able to provide you counsel anyway.
 
Flemingovia - Today at 1:09 PM
can i ask a legal quesiton, without prejudice.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:09 PM
Yes (if it's about the case it belongs in the trial topic)
Flemingovia - Today at 1:10 PM
Asta is offering to drop some of the charges, if my client pleads guilty. In order to advise him, i need to know what the penalties are if he pleads guilty (ie what to expect). Do you know?
Without that information I cannot advise him.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:11 PM
Ah
> Sentencing: When the Court renders a verdict of Guilty, the Prosecution and the Defense will be given a period of time to make sentencing recommendations before the Court makes an ultimate determination. Once a sentence has been issued, the Moderating Justice must personally notify the defendant as well as any government or administration officials who must act to carry out the sentence.
I would generally expect that the Court would be unlikely to impose a more severe sentence than the prosecutor recommends: it would conceivably do so in the case it believed the prosecutor to have acted improperly.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:12 PM
Hmm. Not very informative, the rules.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:15 PM
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-plea-bargains-get-made.html
Nolo.com
How Plea Bargains Get Made | Nolo.com
In a typical plea bargain, the defense lawyer and prosecutor confer, and one or the other proposes a deal.

> It is up to the judge to impose sentence in a criminal case. On the other hand, it is up to the prosecutor to decide what charges to bring; the judge has no authority in that sphere except to dismiss a charge that the judge feels is wrong. This means that a prosecutor may agree to change the charges or even drop some charges in exchange for the defendant’s plea, and the judge can’t stop it. However, if the plea bargain involves the type of sentence to be imposed by the judge, the prosecutor cannot guarantee the result without the judge’s agreement (see below).(edited)
also relevant: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/pages/laws/##laws_1
the home of The North Pacific region of the online game Nationstates
Flemingovia - Today at 1:17 PM
So... basically asta says we take the bargain or the trial collapses and she will file charges again. I am not sure what to advise my client.
Oh well
Eluvatar - Today at 1:17 PM
In TNP court procedure, I cannot make any binding promises about sentencing because sentencing is decided by the full court.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:17 PM
Of course. I was looking for ballpark.
I recognise your restrictions.
I wonder if double Jeopardy would apply? If the trial collapses.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:18 PM
Double Jeopardy would apply if they are found Innocent, but not, I believe, in a Mistrial.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:20 PM
Are you sure of that?
Either way, there would be an outcry if ASta went after NK again. this is a petty thing to pursue so vigorously.
"No Nation shall be subjected to being twice put in jeopardy for the same offense." That seems to imply differently from what you are saying.
My client is in jeopardy now.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:23 PM
The precedent I would look to would be TNP v JAL, I imagine.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:23 PM
that was under a differnt constitution, I think. Certainly a differnet legal code.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:23 PM
Same Bill of Rights
TNP v JAL is mixed, of course.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:24 PM
yeah. I really do not want to go down the route of arguing about THAT case.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:26 PM
May I repeat what I told you in the sidebar?(edited)
Flemingovia - Today at 1:27 PM
Of couse.
course
Eluvatar - Today at 1:27 PM
May I log this conversation to the Court private area for this case?
Flemingovia - Today at 1:27 PM
Flemingovia - Today at 6:09 PM
can i ask a legal quesiton, without prejudice.
From that post, yes
Eluvatar - Today at 1:28 PM
nods
 
Eluvatar changed the channel name: sidebarToday at 1:26 PM
Eluvatar - Today at 1:27 PM
Things I have said:
I would generally expect that the Court would be unlikely to impose a more severe sentence than the prosecutor recommends: it would conceivably do so in the case it believed the prosecutor to have acted improperly.
In TNP court procedure, I cannot make any binding promises about sentencing because sentencing is decided by the full court.
NB I will be logging this conversation in the court private deliberations for this case
Flemingovia - Today at 1:29 PM
I am off to cook. But i will monitor.
Eluvatar - Today at 1:29 PM
A final note, I noted that the precedent I see regarding double jeopardy is TNP v JAL, which suggests that a mistrial does not constitute a verdict and does not prevent charges being refiled.
Asta - Today at 1:30 PM
I am not sure what this is?
Eluvatar - Today at 1:30 PM
I believe it at least questionable to discuss any aspect of the case without one of the sides present.
So if either wishes to speak to me off the trial record, here is the place.
(I'll still be logging to the court private area for historical archival reasons)
Asta - Today at 1:32 PM
gotcha
Eluvatar pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins.Today at 1:32 PM
Asta - Today at 1:32 PM
fwiw I have not read anything on the forum past my request that witness testimony be bypassed
Eluvatar - Today at 1:33 PM
That request was objected to by the defense and their objection sustained.
Asta - Today at 1:33 PM
flemingovia and I have been discussing reaching an agreement
not a plea deal, but a way to allow the trial to proceed and to reach a verdict
Eluvatar - Today at 1:34 PM
Ahah.
Flemingovia - Today at 1:35 PM
Of course, I can only act with my client's approval.
Asta - Today at 1:35 PM
yeah.
and hopefully your client can respond before the end of evidence submission
>_>
which is when, exactly? midnight tonight?
Eluvatar - Today at 1:36 PM
Major update :stuck_out_tongue:
Asta - Today at 1:36 PM
is that midnight?
p.s. elu how did you create this
I want one
Eluvatar - Today at 1:36 PM
There's an Add Friends to DM button
upper right
Asta - Today at 1:37 PM
wicked neat
 
Asta - Today at 3:24 PM
question for @Eluvatar: would an SC member posting an oath and posting that the quotes I submitted are real and valid suffice for witness testimony to validate something which I, you, and the defense attorney all have access to?
Flemingovia - Today at 4:06 PM
okay, I am back for a bit
except i am not. I am off to bed.
Asta - Today at 4:34 PM
lol
yeah right :stuck_out_tongue:
Flemingovia - Today at 4:35 PM
damn nationstates. it cannot be satisfied.
bb
nn
Asta - Today at 4:38 PM
@Flemingovia, I hope you wake up before evidence submission is over. Just in case your client has responded. :stuck_out_tongue:
such a shame that we didn't get another 2 days, really. >_>
gosh I wonder what could have happened there.
<_<
Eluvatar - Today at 4:44 PM
Documentary evidence can be authenticated by those who have seen the original document (i.e. the telegram on nationstates.net)
Asta - Today at 4:45 PM
that is not what I asked
I am speaking of the quotes I posted
that they are real and true and honest quotes or w/e
Eluvatar - Today at 4:45 PM
oh yes that is valid
Asta - Today at 4:47 PM
okay cool
that has been done.
you're welcome, defense >_>
Eluvatar - Today at 4:51 PM
Erm
You might want to follow the rules for witness statemetns
*statements
Asta - Today at 4:59 PM
...I do not know what you mean
I asked you if something would be acceptable, you said it would be, then I asked an SC member to do so.
Eluvatar - Today at 4:59 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to say that you could have them post without following the necessary first steps
Asta - Today at 5:00 PM
which are?
Eluvatar - Today at 5:00 PM
The two procedures are deposition or witness statement
witness statements are PMed to the moderating justice
Asta - Today at 5:00 PM
because I was literally asking exactly what I planned to have done, which you said was fine.
Eluvatar - Today at 5:01 PM
I heard "testimony" and assumed a deposition context
Asta - Today at 5:01 PM
-_-
Eluvatar - Today at 5:01 PM
The rules are very vague about some things
but they explicitly prohibit what just happened
Asta - Today at 5:01 PM
Evidence submission ends in like 7 hours, and this is evidence that EVERYONE INVOLVED HAS ACCESS TO.
<_<
uggggggh
Eluvatar - Today at 5:01 PM
Lord Ravenclaw can literally send me a PM consisting of the two posts he made
and it works
Asta - Today at 5:02 PM
>_>
have I ever told you I hate your guts? :stuck_out_tongue:
Eluvatar - Today at 5:04 PM
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=10013977&t=9011796
the home of The North Pacific region of the online game Nationstates
I didn't write these rules
Asta - Today at 5:05 PM
you did TELL me it was okay though.
Eluvatar - Today at 5:05 PM
There was a misunderstanding
What I thought I was answering was "would testimony from LR suffice to authenticate the SC records"
Asta - Today at 5:06 PM
no I was asking if just posting an oath and a statement would suffice. gah.
you're usually so literal. I'm honestly surprised you didn't read my question literally.
 
Eluvatar changed the channel icon.10/22/2016
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
I granted Aleisyr foreign envoy masking.
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
More last minute statements?
Asta - 10/22/2016
@Eluvatar can you edit this post for me? http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9015534/1/#new
the home of The North Pacific region of the online game Nationstates
I forgot to spoiler the image
and it is stretching the page
I apologize
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
done
Asta - 10/22/2016
thankee
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
Aliesyr's testimony is much better than Pierconium's
Some actual question and answer.
Rahter than him taking over.
Asta - 10/22/2016
flem, pierc did oath in that thread, so you can feel free to question him about his statement if you want
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
Can I have aliesyr now too?
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
Yes
SillyString has said so in the topic
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
Folks ... recess?
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
Recess once tonight's deposition(s) is/are done.
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
I am not sure they will be done by deadline.
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
You have a lot of questions left for Aleisyr?
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
unless Aliesyr is fast and pierconium responds.
About four.
But they depend on his answers to the first one.
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
He has responded.
Asta - 10/22/2016
Am i allowed to ask questions? or have I given up any chance? :stuck_out_tongue:
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
I am done.
MY other questions were redundant.
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
Unless defense objects, prosecution may ask a question.
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
I have no objection.
Asta - 10/22/2016
cool
Flemingovia - 10/22/2016
nn again
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
coughs
draws attention to the lower right hand corner of the screenshot
Aleisyr has responded
Asta - 10/22/2016
oh god I totally missed that there was a time and date in it.
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afMsXWRWbOk
YouTube
relearner
"I was elected to lead, not to read" - President Schwarzenegger ...


Asta - 10/22/2016
holy wow.
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
afk for ~30m(edited)
Asta - 10/22/2016
way to disappear in the last ten minutes of evidence submission!!!
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
back
also I said it'd end as TNP passed through update
so in about 45 minutes(edited)
Asta - 10/22/2016
who can keep track of that kind of thing
:neutral_face:
Eluvatar - 10/22/2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-8cuWBzZzs
YouTube
Avril The Best
Avril Lavigne - I Can Do Better


October 23, 2016
Eluvatar - 10/23/2016
I have received a new Witness Statement.
October 27, 2016
Asta - 10/27/2016
@Flemingovia and @Eluvatar I received a telegram from the defendant expressing interest in zombie preparedness command.
I am unsure what the rules are around corresponding with him outside of the trial, even on matters unrelated
:confused:
Eluvatar - 10/27/2016
You may correspond with the defendant, and I need not be privy
but it may be appropriate to keep Flemingovia in the loop, even if the correspondence has nothing to do with the trial
October 28, 2016
Flemingovia - 10/28/2016
At least he wants to be constructively involved in the region. All credit to him. Go ahead. If he is found guilty and expelled from the region and forum at least he will have had one postiive experience of TNP.
October 29, 2016
Flemingovia - 10/29/2016
Asta and I have worked out a deal:
Asta - Today at 2:08 AM
So, my last offer to your client doesn't seem like it will work anymore, since my witnesses did show up to validate the necessary evidence, albeit at the last minute.
So, I'd like to propose a new one
Your client pleads guilty to Conspiracy to Commit Grosse Misconduct, which carries as its possible sentence a loss of voting rights for a finite duration, and I drop all other charges.
(as he is not currently a citizen, that sentence would have little effect on him, and would only apply if he chose to become a citizen before the end of whatever duration)
(and as he holds no office in TNP, the "loss of office" provision would not apply at all)
Flemingovia - Today at 6:37 AM
That works. We accept.
I have heard from NK, and he authorised me to accept a deal on his behalf.
The only proviso would be that the sentence is confirmed to be in that ballpark. I do not want another trial where the prosecution offered a deal and the justice disagreed and imposed a much harsher sentence.
Asta - 10/29/2016
Agreed
( @Flemingovia for what it's worth, elu is probably not going to be online until later today - he is taking a plane down to visit me. but I will point him in this direction when I can)
(go go z-day command hq)
Flemingovia - 10/29/2016
he is not seriously flying to visit you just for zombie day, is he?
Asta - 10/29/2016
yep!
I mean, it's for a couple of days, not just for the event itself. :stuck_out_tongue:
But it's one of the only times of year we get to see each other anymore.
Plus it really helps his response time on various technical changes if I can physically poke him in the arm
Flemingovia - 10/29/2016
You people take this game way too seriously
Asta - 10/29/2016
probably true. but WE HAVE TO WIN Z-DAY
Eluvatar - 10/29/2016
May I consult on hypothetical sentencing with the rest of the Court for this case.
?
Flemingovia - 10/29/2016
umm.
I don't see why not.
But i do not see how any defendant could accept a plea bargain if they did not know what they were facing.
Eluvatar - 10/29/2016
My intention would be to get you some feedback from the court as a whole, which would be more predictive than feedback from me alone
October 30, 2016
Flemingovia - 10/30/2016
It would be best if Ivan was not involved in that process.
Asta - 10/30/2016
I assume he means the 3-person panel sitting as court on the trial
not the regular elected justices
confirmed, that is what he means
Eluvatar - 10/30/2016
Yes(edited)
I meant to include "for this case" in that statement
November 2, 2016
Eluvatar - 11/02/2016
I think I can say the court (for this case) is on board.
Flemingovia - 11/02/2016
On board with.....
Eluvatar - 11/02/2016
not imposing a sentence inconsistent with what you quoted Sillystring describing
if the described agreement were pursued
Flemingovia - 11/02/2016
OK then I am happy to announce.
Asta - 11/02/2016
cool
November 3, 2016
Asta - 11/03/2016
@Flemingovia would you like me to announce the terms of the plea deal?
Flemingovia - 11/03/2016
it would be good if someone would. I'd like to get a line drawn under this.
Asta - 11/03/2016
Sure
Asta - 11/03/2016
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=10016761&t=9011796
the home of The North Pacific region of the online game Nationstates
November 11, 2016
Asta - Last Friday at 12:05 AM
@Eluvatar http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9011796/10/#new I forgot [/list] any chance you can fix that for me
the home of The North Pacific region of the online game Nationstates
Eluvatar - Last Friday at 10:43 PM
@Asta done
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top