Regional Officer Amendment to the Bill of Rights

"Shall" implies the action follows from some obligation, while "will" is a direct command. I suppose you could argue that in this case, a government official's obligation to follow the Constibillocode prevents them from banning a nation without just cause.

Before stating my objection, I also mistakenly compared the use of "shall" vs. "will" in the legal code, rather than the bill of rights.

The legal code has 77 "wills" to 38 "shalls." The bill of rights, however, has 15 "shalls" to 0 "wills."

We can proceed with the vote if 9 people agree to overrule the objections.
 
I will give the opponents of my wording until Monday to suggest alternative wording. If they do not, I will seek the aforementioned rule 1.4 remedy.
 
I note, as has been noted, that the scheduled vote is cancelled.

Kondratev:
We can proceed with the vote if 9 people agree to overrule the objections.
To correct my deputy, the motion for immediate vote, at this time, requires the support of seven members (including the proposer), not nine.
 
Neat!

Kondratev is correct about a portion of my concern. Basically, there are a couple schools of thought on "shall" - one says that it is the future tense of "will" and should be treated as such; the other (predominantly a legal one) interprets it as having some obligational bearing and requirement. The clearest way I have seen the obligational wording rephrased is as "has a duty to".

This straight rephrasing obviously works better in some cases than in others, but there are two good examples in the proposed clause, and a third in the original. Taking them one at a time:
  1. The WA Delegate has a duty to not exercise the power of ejection or banning unless expressly authorized by a specific action of a government authority of the region pursuant to the Constitution or to the Legal Code.
  2. The regional power of ejection and banning has a duty to not be granted or exercised, nor forum bans imposed, unless expressly authorized pursuant to the Constitution or the Legal Code.
  3. Any ejected or banned nation has a duty to have prompt recourse to judicial review of the matter.
The first one is an almost perfect use. The substitution fits in nicely, with the only quibble being the exact placement of the negation. If the whole document were like this, I would have no grounds to complain.

The second one is awkwardly phrased, but clear enough to grasp the intent. There exists a duty or obligation not to grant or exercise or impose a ban without authorization. Most of the awkwardness comes from the duty not being assigned to anyone, but rather being free-floating - almost as if the grant or exercise or imposition itself is what contains the duty. Still, it is clearly in line with the overall approach.

The third one is where passable turns into failure. No ejected or banned nation has any duty or obligation to seek judicial recourse (or, in the weird wording present there, to recourse to judicial review) - they have a right to the option. The legal obligation in this case is actually oppositionally incumbent; it requires the court to grant that review upon request.

The only way the use of shall in the third clause makes any actual sense is for it to be taken as the other usage of the word - the future tense of will. It is this practice, the mixing and matching of words so that they do not mean the same thing or refer to this same thing throughout our binding legal documents that drives me absolutely bonkers. Another good example is that we have clauses where "government" refers to the whole thing and ones where it refers solely to the executive branch. This kind of inconsistency has led to a number of requests for review in the past, and even still there's not always clarity - because there are more than two ways to rephrase the word, including replacing it with "may" (as in granting or denying permission") or replacing "shall have/be" with straight-up statements of fact: "has/is" or "have/are". It's a nightmare.

In terms of Elu's requested language... I think a huge part of the problem we're having here is that we're trying to include both rights of nations and governmental checks in the same sentence of the same clause of the same document. Even if we grant that it's appropriate to include both kinds of things in one document (which I'm fine with, if we consider it a Bill of Rights and Protections) this addition of a New Kind of Thing (the power to grant banning powers) seems like it warrants its own clause. It does not have to be shoved into the same clause as the protection against being banned. With that in mind, I propose this:
8. No nation may be ejected or banned from The North Pacific, nor banned from the regional forum, unless expressly authorized under the Constitution or the Legal Code. All nations ejected or banned from The North Pacific have the right to prompt judicial review of their removal from the region.
9. No nation may grant another nation the power to eject or ban nations from The North Pacific unless expressly authorized under the Constitution or Legal Code.
 
While I disagree with the reading of the sentence regarding judicial review, I would be happy to replace that "shall" with something else in way of compromise.

I do not, however, wish to break apart the clause on ejection and banning into two clauses on ejection and banning.

If we want to break up the clauses of the Bill of Rights into short clauses, then that's another project entirely. See the current clause 9:

9. Each Nation in The North Pacific is guaranteed the organization and operation of the governmental authorities of the region on fundamental principles of democracy, accountability, and transparency. No action by the governmental authorities of the region shall deny to any Nation of The North Pacific, due process of law, including prior notice and the opportunity to be heard, nor deny to any Nation of The North Pacific the equal and fair treatment and protection of the provisions of the Constitution. No governmental authority shall have power to adopt or impose an ex post facto law or a bill of attainder as to any act for purposes of criminal proceedings.

I would have far greater concerns, even, for the limited relation of the last sentence of clause 2 to the rest of it:

2. Each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region. Each Nation has the right to assemble, and to petition the governmental authorities of the region, including the WA Delegate, for the redress of grievances. The governmental authorities of the region shall act only in the best interests of the Region, as permitted and limited under the Constitution.
 
Again, just because other areas of the BoR are bad and should be fixed is not a reason to make this one bad and in need of fixing. :P

Also, your assumption that it is about short clauses is mistaken. As I said in my post, it is about the content of a clause, not how long it is. I think the phrasing issues we were having for five pages derived from trying to include, in the same sentence, a protection and a prohibition simply because they are tangentially related.

I could live with this (for now):
8. No nation may be ejected or banned from The North Pacific, nor banned from the regional forum, unless expressly authorized under the Constitution or the Legal Code. No nation may grant another nation the power to eject or ban nations from The North Pacific unless expressly authorized under the Constitution or Legal Code. All nations ejected or banned from The North Pacific have the right to prompt judicial review of their removal from the region.
It's mildly redundant, but at least easy to break apart into my actual suggestion whenever the timing is right.

I still think two clauses is better.
 
I point out clauses 9 and 2 not because they are long but because they have diverse subject matter.

Clause 9 covers:

accountability and transparency
due process
prior notice
equal protection
ex post facto legislation
bills of attainder

Clause 2 covers:

Free speech and freedom of assembly and petition
obligation of the government to act only in the best interests of the region




As previously noted, I'm entirely willing to change the last sentence to "All nations ejected or banned from The North Pacific have the right to prompt judicial review of their removal from the region." or a similar revision that suits you. I do not want to break the first sentence into two, however, as it enormously adds to the length of the text. I don't see how the two sentences are any more clear than the one sentence. Further, by repeating the same exact words twice, we are creating the possibility for the future accidental revision of only one of the two wordings, leading to inconsistency.

I would be happy with:
8. The regional power of ejection and banning shall not be granted or exercised, nor regional forum bans imposed, unless expressly authorized pursuant to the Constitution or the Legal Code. All nations ejected or banned from The North Pacific have the right to prompt judicial review of the matter.
Or:
8. The regional power of ejection and banning shall not be granted or exercised, nor regional forum bans imposed, unless expressly authorized pursuant to the Constitution or the Legal Code. Any ejected or banned nation is entitled to prompt judicial review of the matter.
 
SillyString:
"may not be" would be significantly better than "shall not be"

I think I have explained why... :P
Well, you've convinced me. I mean it seems to me the stakes are a bit low here, but there's definitely ambiguity that it wouldn't hurt to clear up. It doesn't solve the matter of "shall" vs. "will," but I think Eluvatar's second proposed revision is the bet compromise on this particular bill. Why not do that?
 
I was contextualizing whether or not "may" used in this fashion would fit the style of the Bill of Rights as written.

I am leaning toward agreeing that it does, based on that clause.
 
Having updated the bill to adopting the below text, I move for a vote.

8. The regional power of ejection and banning may not be granted or exercised, nor forum bans imposed, unless expressly authorized pursuant to the Constitution or the Legal Code. Any ejected or banned nation is entitled to prompt judicial review of the matter.
 
The bill is entering formal debate. After 5 days, a vote will be scheduled. The debate period can be reduced at Eluvatar's request.
 
It seems like the interpretation of this clause has been more fraught over the years than any other portion of the Bill of Rights. "Prompt and immediate" is horrible, and at times, the prevailing interpretation was that the delegate had to receive a request to eject or ban a nation from some other governmental body, otherwise the delegate would not have the authority to do so.

This amendment is clear, concise, and preserves the flavor and tone of the document. I wholeheartedly endorse its passage, and intend to vote Aye.
 
This is not an amendment I support, in fact I don't even like the currently in force clause.

I do not believe that "or banned from any forum" or any variant thereof has any place in the Bill of Rights. I stand by my consistent stance that forum administration and moderation has no place being involved in any form of political process beyond a common sense approach to masking and otherwise.
 
There is long-standing precedent that the law does not strictly apply to admin actions pursuant to the TOS and TOU. Legal restrictions on forum bans only apply to bans ordered by government authorities. Forum admins are obliged to carry out such bans, but they are not the political entity that imposes them. Thus, I do not agree with Lord Ravenclaw's objection.
 
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