Since I feel that the Democratic Union must settle this controversial matter, I propose this before the Council:
ARCHIVED: Proposal: Conditional Support for IA Occupation of Rhuvanland
- Thread starter plembobria
- Start date
Nightsong
Bookworm
The way we read this is that you are asking the Member States of the Democratic Union to give their blessing and go ahead to the Imperium Augustum to violate the sovereign rights of Rhuvanland and occupy the nation. If that is the case, it defies the very essence of democracy and a nation's sovereignty. The Rose Union will not back a proposal of that nature despite how appalled we are at the state of affairs in Rhuvanland along with the threats of war from Wolfsea, Yeraennus and Imperium Augustum. If the end result is a war and the occupation of Rhuvanland by Imperium Augustum (and / or others) then so be it, that is war. But we will not give our blessing to this proposal at this time.
I support this resolution, as much as I dislike Imperium breaking the sovereignty of the Rhuvish people, the current Cabinet is in support of peace, not war to resolve the situation. The Great War was *the* worst decision that was made by its belligerents, and we will not support a second Great War. We look forward to Ulrich's reign to reach an end, and a successor chosen democratically.
-Parker Fuller, DU Representative of Guslantis
-Parker Fuller, DU Representative of Guslantis
Kannex
TNPer
Absolutely opposed. Have we, the Democratic Union no less, forgotten our reverence for popular sovereignty and democratic ideals, which these Latins so scorn? How is handing over the sovereignty of a people to the Roman Reich like a big cake an act befitting of the Democratic Union? Once under Latin rule you will not find Rhuvanland under a democratic successor. There is no 'peace' if you allow the whole sovereignty -- Rhuvanland's right to exist -- to be trampled under the guise of Roman 'efficiency' and governance. The Rhuvish will never accept it, and neither will any decent, civilized nation in this God's earth.
There is no avoiding war here. The follies of Syrixian foreign policy in Rhuvanland have ensured the entrenchment of that vile regime. It is clear that the attitude of the Rhuvish regime is utmost concerning to every power here. The concern and fears of the international community -- the apprehensions of the Imperium, of the Wolvesh, of others -- are accelerating to armed conflict and there is no way to avoid that. We may only do the right thing and back the ideals which we have stood together with time and time again.
There is no avoiding war here. The follies of Syrixian foreign policy in Rhuvanland have ensured the entrenchment of that vile regime. It is clear that the attitude of the Rhuvish regime is utmost concerning to every power here. The concern and fears of the international community -- the apprehensions of the Imperium, of the Wolvesh, of others -- are accelerating to armed conflict and there is no way to avoid that. We may only do the right thing and back the ideals which we have stood together with time and time again.
- TNP Nation
- McMasterdonia
The Kingdom of McMasterdonia, too, supports this motion. We have ourselves experienced what can happen when the embers of extremism are allowed to fester for too long. Should this Nazo blight be allowed to continue unchecked, it will soon engulf the nation, and the entire region in a ball of flames - engulfing all who seek to oppose them.
The Imperium will lead the necessary moderate government to restore the rights of minorities in Rhuvanland. This combined will our sanctions will ensure the defeat of the radical government, that has sprung from nothing, and created severe strife in a nation that is extremely poor. The Nazo's have scapegoated minority groups and committed mass atrocities that can no longer be tolerated.
It is our belief that only a Novrith-DU backed Imperium led occupation can resolve this crisis. Everything else put forward by other powers such as Wolfsea - a military police state, is simply window dressing, and will not present solutions to the ongoing crisis. Wolfsea plans to simply make the opposition the Government. Despite their landslide defeat and political irrelevancy. Rhuvanland needs a revolution, but it is Imperium, not Wolfsea, who must lead it.
The Imperium will lead the necessary moderate government to restore the rights of minorities in Rhuvanland. This combined will our sanctions will ensure the defeat of the radical government, that has sprung from nothing, and created severe strife in a nation that is extremely poor. The Nazo's have scapegoated minority groups and committed mass atrocities that can no longer be tolerated.
It is our belief that only a Novrith-DU backed Imperium led occupation can resolve this crisis. Everything else put forward by other powers such as Wolfsea - a military police state, is simply window dressing, and will not present solutions to the ongoing crisis. Wolfsea plans to simply make the opposition the Government. Despite their landslide defeat and political irrelevancy. Rhuvanland needs a revolution, but it is Imperium, not Wolfsea, who must lead it.
Mister Masses
TNPer
How can we guarantee Imperium's coup will end with a diplomatic result? There's nothing in the proposed sanctions to enforce any type of reprimand should IA create a geopolitical crisis (or exacerbate an existing one).
As it is written, I oppose this resolution. It offers no security to the DU from Imperium that, should we allow the militarization to continue, Imperium will then rule the nation with a democratic hand.
I cannot justify going to war over this political crisis however and will accept any Rhuvish citizens who choose to seek asylum outside their borders.
As it is written, I oppose this resolution. It offers no security to the DU from Imperium that, should we allow the militarization to continue, Imperium will then rule the nation with a democratic hand.
I cannot justify going to war over this political crisis however and will accept any Rhuvish citizens who choose to seek asylum outside their borders.
Might I remind the delegation from Kannex, that the electorate of Rhuvanland have chosen such evil as the Nazo Party to lead their nation? Democracy is entirely unworkable in Rhuvanland as of now.Kannex:
It is befitting to the human rights of the Rhuvish people -- all of them, including minorities.Kannex:
The resolution can be repealed in such a case.Mister Masses:
Kannex
TNPer
What is the point of the Democratic Union if you spit on the very ideals that hold up this organization? If you have no respect for democracy, let us not call this the Democratic Union any longer. The Plembobrian delegation is truly unworthy of any degree of respect from the Democratic Union if they believe that the best way to honor the spirit of democracy and ease the oppressed Rhuvish people's plight is to deliver them unto the hands of delusional, land-grabbing Latinate heathens. No, the only way forward is to overthrow the regime which has placed itself as the totalitarian head of Rhuvish society and restore democracy to Rhuvanland. We back the Wolvesh. The Plembobrian delegate's attitude to the Latinate imperium is naive, bordering almost on childish folly. It would be too little, too late to repeal this resolution if -- surprise, surprise! -- the Imperium annexes Rhuvanland and oppresses the rights of the Rhuvish.
Yes, Kannex backs the Wolvish. A militaristic, stratocratic, absolute monarchy. The hypocrisy held by the Kannexan regime is unbelievable. For Kannex to get to the high moral ground, they would first need to climb out of the volcanic hole they dug for themselves during the Great War. They would have to come a mile up to get to even equilibrium let alone have any contest in morality with Plembobria.
Kannex
TNPer
The Wolvesh are to restore the democracy in Rhuvanland -- we are supporting a democratic effort; that is more than what the Plembobrian delegation can say. Morality, you say? When the Rhuvish were torn apart by civil strife, who came to their aid? The Kannexans. When the Rhuvish fell under the boot of communist rule, who committed our sons and daughters to the defense of Rhuvish liberty? The Kannexans. We have stood by the interests of Rhuvish through and through -- only now are the Plembobrians stepping out of their shell. Do not even pretend you have the best interests of Rhuvanland, this region, or the ideals of this organization at heart. You would rather see Rhuvanland torn asunder and given to tyrannical dogs before the frail old men of Plembobria became too uncomfortable in the heat. Morality? Do not pretend Plembobria -- complacent, blind, and naive -- has any business speaking of morality.
And yet for all that they don't seem to like you. Go ahead- try to aid them- and watch as their rhetoric gets out of hand and they start gassing Kannexans. From what we've gleaned that seems to be their preferred method of execution.
This is necessary. Like it or not, Rhuvanland's gone insane.
This is necessary. Like it or not, Rhuvanland's gone insane.
Kannex
TNPer
That the current regime in Rhuvanland must be overthrown -- there is no question. The Rhuvish and Kannexans have always been brothers and friends and this irrational ideology is indeed a sickness. But what is not necessary, old friend, is the replacement of a tyranny by another. We would not hand the Syrixian nor Plembobrian peoples on a platter to the Latinates. We ask you do not do the same here.
Handing us on a platter? Sir, do you even understand what you are talking about? The Imperium Augustum is a friend of the Empire in our eyes, not a threat. We are not platter-food for their dinner, we sit beside them and dine together.Kannex:
Kannex
TNPer
And after all this talk of national sovereignty is disposed of, who is to say what is the diner and what is the dinner? The Latinates do not understand national sovereignty, nor democracy -- they do not have, so to speak, the same table manners as we do. They would extend their so-called 'Latin peace' over all the world, irregardless of the wishes of its subject peoples. Would you betray the Rhuvish -- a people that Syrixia once desired to help -- and hand them to the Latinates to be their prey and plaything? Have you no respect for the sovereignty of a people that has considered you a friend from long before?Syrixia:
Sometimes sovereignty is a bad idea for a people who vote in a genocidal megalomaniac and fully support everything he does. It's like, say, giving a psychopath a chainsaw and telling him to enjoy freedom.Kannex:
Some argument you have there. As mentioned by the honorable delegate from Plembobria, the Democratic Union is named such so it can preserve democracy among its members.Kannex:
And how exactly is the CDCP any more of a legitimate authority if they were voted out by the majority of Rhuvishmen?
Kannex
TNPer
How can the Democratic Union preserve democracy among its own members if its member-states scorn and frown upon the ideals of democracy, and would not even lift a finger to remedy the ills of a people in want of a better democracy, but would rather see it tyrannized and passed over to a decidedly anti-democratic rule? We maintain that to surrender the sovereignty of the Rhuvish -- not ours to give -- to the Latinates is unethical and is a crime. We may sit and watch the ideals that all decent, peace-loving folk cherish violated, or we may support the effort to improve the Rhuvish democracy.
Nightsong
Bookworm
Did the Rhuvish ask for the intervention of the Democratic Union and the occupation by Imperium? No... This proposal and sanctioning of an Imperium occupation of Rhuvanland is a blatant disregard for the will of the Rhuvish people, their internal affairs and their national sovereignty. Should Rhuvanland be occupied by Imperium, Wolfsea, Yeraennus or others as a consequence of war... then so be it, that is the risk that is taken in war if you end up on the losing end.
I will tell you only this- the Rhuvish are fed up. You leave them alone and they will elect the Nazos again and again. If they can't be elected, the Rhuvish will revolt. Public support for Ulrich in the nation is absurdly high. The anger of an oppressed people has long grown and been fed.
First came the assassination of the Rhuvish monarch and his family in 1933 and its replacement by an oligarchic government headed by 10 councilors and their Speaker. Then came the 2008 economic crisis that Amitabh Bhargava tried to use to play the eastern imperialist game and "revive the Imperial glory".
Rhuvanland was divided between those who submitted to Bhargava's hegemony and those who refused. Then it was forcefully reunited, with a democracy shoved at them. As if the Rhuvish were ready for that! Of course, Bhargava wound up being assassinated, and his lust for military strength ended.
However the damage was already done and now the anger of an opressed people has resulted in the rise of Ulrich. Now that they've been ruined by imperialism, war, and the meddling of the East, they look to a cunning leader, one who says he'll bring their nation back from destruction, and perhaps beat the East at its own imperialist game.
The Empire will have this happen no longer. The East continues to get richer and vies for power while the world is ravaged by war and evil, and they care only for themselves. The Empire sympathizes with the West and with the Imperium Augustum.
Moral notions of national sovereignty end when those who have it abuse it and elect blatantly evil people to run their nation. Would you have the Nazos stay in power all for national sovereignty, or is Kalti going to be practical?
First came the assassination of the Rhuvish monarch and his family in 1933 and its replacement by an oligarchic government headed by 10 councilors and their Speaker. Then came the 2008 economic crisis that Amitabh Bhargava tried to use to play the eastern imperialist game and "revive the Imperial glory".
Rhuvanland was divided between those who submitted to Bhargava's hegemony and those who refused. Then it was forcefully reunited, with a democracy shoved at them. As if the Rhuvish were ready for that! Of course, Bhargava wound up being assassinated, and his lust for military strength ended.
However the damage was already done and now the anger of an opressed people has resulted in the rise of Ulrich. Now that they've been ruined by imperialism, war, and the meddling of the East, they look to a cunning leader, one who says he'll bring their nation back from destruction, and perhaps beat the East at its own imperialist game.
The Empire will have this happen no longer. The East continues to get richer and vies for power while the world is ravaged by war and evil, and they care only for themselves. The Empire sympathizes with the West and with the Imperium Augustum.
Moral notions of national sovereignty end when those who have it abuse it and elect blatantly evil people to run their nation. Would you have the Nazos stay in power all for national sovereignty, or is Kalti going to be practical?
- TNP Nation
- McMasterdonia
It really surprises me that some members of this body are willing to strongly criticise the actions of DU leadership for not supporting 'democracy' in absolute terms, while at the same time supporting a military dictatorship/police state and simply trusting that this state will restore democracy. There seems to be a very clear case of cognitive dissonance from some Democratic Union member states.
Say what you will about the Imperium, but, they keep their word. They are a nation built upon honour and integrity. For them to go back on their promises to the DU and other international promises would create severe political turmoil within their own nation. I believe we can trust the Imperium to uphold their end of the bargain in regards to this matter.
A democracy at all costs approach that sees a deeply unpopular opposition party restored to power is only going to see the so-called democratic government collapse within months. You cannot simply overthrow one leader and replace them with their predecessor and expect all to be well. The Imperium has real plans for the Rhuvish and will support their transition from the Nazo ideology to a more modern, kinder, and peaceful political process.
Say what you will about the Imperium, but, they keep their word. They are a nation built upon honour and integrity. For them to go back on their promises to the DU and other international promises would create severe political turmoil within their own nation. I believe we can trust the Imperium to uphold their end of the bargain in regards to this matter.
A democracy at all costs approach that sees a deeply unpopular opposition party restored to power is only going to see the so-called democratic government collapse within months. You cannot simply overthrow one leader and replace them with their predecessor and expect all to be well. The Imperium has real plans for the Rhuvish and will support their transition from the Nazo ideology to a more modern, kinder, and peaceful political process.
We have gone back and forth long enough on this. The DU must take a position before thing escalate. I move for a vote
Where is the speaker? This resolution has been moved for a vote. There are two applications for membership pending. The Speaker's office is worsening our reputation across the world of being slow, bureaucratic, and lazy.
If the Speaker's office cannot get its act together, the Chair intends to pursue drastic action.
If the Speaker's office cannot get its act together, the Chair intends to pursue drastic action.