North Pacific Union: Idea?

Piscivore:

Kalti:

I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

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His history suggests that unless he gets to unquestionably dictate the terms of how the RP proceeds for every nation, he doesn't want to participate.

He's proposed a number of ideas, some of them interesting and some less so; but they always fall apart when people stubbornly insist on deciding what happens to or in their own nations.

That's what this is about; he wants a clean slate with this organization so everything is his idea and runs the way he alone says it should.

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To elaborate on this, as Chair of the NPTO I could go on a power mad trip and go for a hostile takeover of the organization and thus dictate to all the members that they comply with my rules or leave. Would this be conducive to a friendly role play environment? No... Hence why I won't do it, also... neither Syrixia, Bootsie or Plembobria would let me hear the end of it if I did.

Anyways, Arux, you have had some great ideas and some I would love to see actually come to fruition. However, you must realize that a lot of us do not like being told how we should run our nations. And no, the NPTO is not a military organization anymore... not since the abolishment of the Peace Council. At the moment, discussion is under way to forge a new path forward.

Kalti:

To elaborate on this, as Chair of the NPTO I could go on a power mad trip and go for a hostile takeover of the organization and thus dictate to all the members that they comply with my rules or leave. Would this be conducive to a friendly role play environment? No... Hence why I won't do it, also... neither Syrixia, Bootsie or Plembobria would let me hear the end of it if I did.

Anyways, Arux, you have had some great ideas and some I would love to see actually come to fruition. However, you must realize that a lot of us do not like being told how we should run our nations. And no, the NPTO is not a military organization anymore... not since the abolishment of the Peace Council. At the moment, discussion is under way to forge a new path forward.

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Agreed. I learned that the hard way a year ago, when I godmodded Plembobria into dropping a nuke.

I don't think it's necessary to speculate about Arux's motivations or what people think they are. I think we should keep discussion germane to the topic.

In many ways the Novrith Pact has aligned itself in opposition to something; in my opinion an organization with different ideals about globalization that it could be opposed to would be a welcome addition to the global politics of Eras. But I would be opposed OOC and IC to a global organization everyone had to be a part of.

Syrixia:

Piscivore:

That's what this is about; he wants a clean slate with this organization so everything is his idea and runs the way he alone says it should.

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However, that does not mean the discussion should end here. What should end is his hope that he will have any control over such an organization created by this discussion. Selfish is what he is.

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You would hijack an ops topic and idea in this way?

I think not. I'm not saying Arux has control of any potential North Pacific Union but he should have input - it would be a nice opportunity to see him become more involved within RP.

So the dogpiling stops. Now.

Speaking now as a player rather than an RP mod, using the NPTO or DU isn't something I'd support. They were created for specific purposes that really don't lend themselves well to this sort of thing.

I think the DU once had the potential for that sort of thing, but the 'democratic' part is an issue. NPTO is, icly, heavily discredited in many nations and using it would be like if they'd tried to keep the League of Nations going instead of setting up the UN.

A new organisation is needed, imo, if we're actually going to give this a go.

[me] puts on his Global Moderator hat. Yeah, echoing the above. Keep it polite folks, otherwise warnings can and will be dished out.

Apologies.

Arux:

Kalti:

Arux:

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

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As the current Chair of the NPTO, I am entirely against your idea of abolishing the NPTO. Sure, from an outside perspective it might seem like the organization does little but if you were involved in RP, which I have not seen you active in, then you would understand what role the organization plays. As for the DU, I will not comment on them as I have not been heavily active there and cannot say one way or another how that organization is holding up. So please, before asking the community to make drastic changes to these organizations which are utilized in role play (to varying extents), I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

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I mean in influence. You're supposed to be a military organization.

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No we're not.

NPTO will gladly serve this purpose. Too long have I stood silent about taking change, and I will not any longer. NPTO is not what I wanted, and actually, I made sure that I kept NPTO out of an alliance state to achieve a G8 style organization, but as it grew, it became the United Nations. It has always been the United Nations.

Too long has Guslantis felt the pain of the war that brought the nation to its knees, and since the creation of NPTO, all the world has done is keep slapping the faces of both Leah and Abigail alike.

I decided to give an ultimatum, the NPTO was reformed, or the founder nation would withdraw its support for its own creation. The organization is now a clean slate, and I personally want to give this thing a shot.

plembobria:

Arux:

Kalti:

Arux:

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

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As the current Chair of the NPTO, I am entirely against your idea of abolishing the NPTO. Sure, from an outside perspective it might seem like the organization does little but if you were involved in RP, which I have not seen you active in, then you would understand what role the organization plays. As for the DU, I will not comment on them as I have not been heavily active there and cannot say one way or another how that organization is holding up. So please, before asking the community to make drastic changes to these organizations which are utilized in role play (to varying extents), I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

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I mean in influence. You're supposed to be a military organization.

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No we're not.

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Actually, he is right to a degree. Bootsie's original vision as well as mine was for NPTO to be a North Pacific NATO, hence the name. (Though Bootsie wanted it to be a G5-like entente.)

However, over time it branched out, and became more than just a military organization. So while NPTO is not a military organization now, it was originally. Though, in retrospect, thank God it became what it is today instead of some NATO ripoff.

The NPTO was just reformed. It deserves one more go. This new idea will allow it to become what it has the potential to become, and to move on from its crazy past.

As I said, NPTO is ICly discredited, and there wouldn't be much sense in either Naizerre or Nierr joining it.

Might as well discredit Guslantis as well. Nothing good ever came from it.

I'm gonna be honest here. If you guys wanted NPTO to be a simple G8-like alliance, then I may have overshot in my original vision.

I'm for abolishing the whole thing and making Bootsie's original entente if the majority is.

Syrixia:

I'm gonna be honest here. If you guys wanted NPTO to be a simple G8-like alliance, then I may have overshot in my original vision.

I'm for abolishing the whole thing and making Bootsie's original entente if the majority is.

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G8/G7 is not an alliance, it is a name for meetings of the Heads of Government (or finance ministers) of the seven most advanced economies. It has no treaty or charter per se. It's just a nickname for nations when their leaders meet.

Guslantis was discredited when it let a supervillain queen and her secret army possessing no clear ideology, tactics, strategy, or weaponry take over the whole nation, which apparently was a stable, Westernized nation-state. Kannex will not trust any organization based in Guslantis again.

As for the NPTO, I don't have a preference either way. Keep it or abolish it. It hasn't been much useful in past RPs, primarily because Nebula and Naizarre haven't been members. We also don't have a "General Assembly"-type thread where our representatives duke it out with words. Imagine Nebula's Khrushchev threatening nuclear war, or Shei Ren's own Che Guevarra railing against Eastern imperialism. Or the North Cronaalis declaring with bravado -- "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!" That would surely have livened up the RP! We need that kind of organization.

If anything should be abolished, we should start with Helmebaine and Febuaizu. They've both outlived their purposes, and most of their members don't even respect the alliances.

Kannex:

Guslantis was discredited when it let a supervillain queen and her secret army possessing no clear ideology, tactics, strategy, or weaponry take over the whole nation, which apparently was a stable, Westernized nation-state. Kannex will not trust any organization based in Guslantis again.

As for the NPTO, I don't have a preference either way. Keep it or abolish it. It hasn't been much useful in past RPs, primarily because Nebula and Naizarre haven't been members. We also don't have a "General Assembly"-type thread where our representatives duke it out with words. Imagine Nebula's Khrushchev threatening nuclear war, or Shei Ren's own Che Guevarra railing against Eastern imperialism. Or the North Cronaalis declaring with bravado -- "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!" That would surely have livened up the RP! We need that kind of organization.

If anything should be abolished, we should start with Helmebaine and Febuaizu. They've both outlived their purposes, and most of their members don't even respect the alliances.

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I assume you mean discredited in-character, and no in an OOC sense. Bootsie has said the NPTO wasn't how he intended for it to be and he will need time to craft that original thought into the practical organisation.

I was not a member of the NPTO either, and my activity was primarily focused towards the Democratic Union.

What I was trying to do with my recent RP with Eumenor was to stir up controversy within the Democratic Union. It is all well and good to say we need an organisation that does this or that, but honestly, it is down to the members of the organization to make that happen. I deliberately baited (Note: IC baiting) for a response in the DU, as did Eumenor with his deliberately mishandling of the investigation. Member states were too willing to not do anything, or too willing to not take a stand for or against a given option. As the DU didn't bite, I also stepped up my IC criticism of the NPTO.

I think part of this problem is that some people are confused between IC and OOC. OOC I am fine with any nation criticizing the response of my government, and for responding strongly to the rhetoric before the Democratic Union. IC: I will oppose it and attempt to discredit your argument. My Ambassadors are bullies and they will try to bludgeon people into submission.

My core point really is that /what/ the organisation is and what it's charter says is not really of huge significance. IMO we could have had the exact organisation you described if more nations were willing to post a robust response (Note: not just military action!) - to hold other members to account, instead of simply being friends with everyone and not doing committing to anything.

Had I time to seriously RP (which I don't expect for at least three more months), I would still have doubted getting involved in your RP. Not that it isn't finely crafted -- it's just there's little for us to do. We see two talking heads shouting at each other over intangible (especially intangible OOC-ly) matters such as evidence and investigations. On a whim we could support one side or the other (as some of us did), but we don't have much investment in it. If there's a dispute between two third-world countries, neither of which have the natural or political resources you care for, what's the point of getting involved? For the fun of it? Currently you two have discussed evidence and there's little reason or motive to doubt that evidence. And if we did want to doubt it, there's little action we could take aside from wait and support one of your parties (God forbid we take action ourselves) -- which in itself doesn't make for a fun RP involvement. That's how it looks to me.

Kannex:

Had I time to seriously RP (which I don't expect for at least three more months), I would still have doubted getting involved in your RP. Not that it isn't finely crafted -- it's just there's little for us to do. We see two talking heads shouting at each other over intangible (especially intangible OOC-ly) matters such as evidence and investigations. On a whim we could support one side or the other (as some of us did), but we don't have much investment in it. If there's a dispute between two third-world countries, neither of which have the natural or political resources you care for, what's the point of getting involved? For the fun of it? Currently you two have discussed evidence and there's little reason or motive to doubt that evidence. And if we did want to doubt it, there's little action we could take aside from wait and support one of your parties (God forbid we take action ourselves) -- which in itself doesn't make for a fun RP involvement. That's how it looks to me.

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Obviously I understand time constraints. But I don't agree with the rest of what you said.

As to two talking heads.. well that is what most RP starts off as. Take the Syrixian-Nebulan disputes over the Shei Ren conflicts. I think there was more that could have been done. Obviously it is hard for us to produce DNA evidence, but the facts as presented gave members options to decide who to support and certainly there was the opportunity there for stronger criticism of Eumenor. Which is what he wanted.

As the RP progressed the crimes of Albert became more well known, and you did make a post about that, I think. Others have, but there was no response to the QM's statement, and the other responses were very subdued.

The problem OOCly with allowing full scale invasions is that we end up with a very dysfunctional RP that doesn't make much sense. And we have the navies from extremely far away parts of the world suddenly bombing McMasterdonia.

My RP is based upon the development of the characters, not just a couple of lines about invasion tactics. I was expecting more involvement in the forms of humanitarian aid, statements of support/condemnation, the withdrawal of embassies, and motions in the Democratic union especially. That is if the DU is going to be the organisation you want it to be.

Options could have included:

- Suspending my membership until we hold elections
- kicking Eumenor out of the DU/NPTO until they hold an independent investigation
- Demanding that Eumenorian Government officials come before an official inquiry of the DU and face questioning - think Senate Committee style
- Make a motion to support the findings; whatever they may be
- The Democratic Union could have condemned the Flemingovianist forces and demanded the Government do more to defeat them (I think you did this, but others did not).
- A fund could have been set up for donations to maintain the refugee camps

Certainly following our assassination of the King of Plembobria we saw greater activity and condemnation. But it took a lot to get there. The Syrixian Government's decision to seek NPTO involvement in McMasterdonia is probably the only other example of a government taking a strong position on my RP.

I put forward the idea of DU managed refugee camps in Anola and Lord Ravenclaw. DU responses were basically non-existent. There is only so much Eumenor or I could do to get people to respond to things and to take a robust position on an issue. The organisation is only as good as it's members.

I'm gonna go anthropologist here.

When an organization here gets too big or its purpose has passed, they become useless. The DU and NPTO are too big and inert, and the Helmebaine and Faibuaizu are useless now.

We have two options:
1) Abolish all four, and if nations want, they can construct small military and economic alliances.
2) Create an all-encompassing organization.

Syrixia:

I'm gonna go anthropologist here.

When an organization here gets too big or its purpose has passed, they become useless. The DU and NPTO are too big and inert, and the Helmebaine and Faibuaizu are useless now.

We have two options:
1) Abolish all four, and if nations want, they can construct small military and economic alliances.
2) Create an all-encompassing organization.

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Neither the DU or the NPTO are your creations. Stop trying to force their destruction.

Syrixia:

I'm gonna go anthropologist here.

When an organization here gets too big or its purpose has passed, they become useless. The DU and NPTO are too big and inert, and the Helmebaine and Faibuaizu are useless now.

We have two options:
1) Abolish all four, and if nations want, they can construct small military and economic alliances.
2) Create an all-encompassing organization.

Click to expand...

This is also not anything like what anthropologists do.

I think a hurdle or challenge with keeping international reactions to events relevant and meaningful is that many TNP nations are simultaneously very militaristic and very averse to conflict.

I'm not suggesting that there should be constant war RPs or "i bomb you" scenarios but there can't be stories without conflict. The NPTO and DU, when they do make decisions, are almost always united in their approach and when conflict does spring up other nations try very hard to accommodate the offended party. OOC friendships or even just wanting not to offend someone should not translate into RP without a real reason. I've done RP with excellent friends of mine where our cultures hated each other.

Put yourself in the mind of your head-of-state in this scenario. Because it's already been discussed and it's an RP I know a lot about, I'll use the example of the McMasterdonian civil war.

The Royal government, by the time hostilities truly break out, has been suspending civil liberties for months in the name of stability. Its opposition, at least at the start, consists of radical republicans and religious extremists. Put yourself in the mind of your national leader. Think of your nation. Is it a republic founded on egalitarianism and political freedom, or does it value security and stability? Alessandro d'Avelocci supports the McMasterdonian government because the status quo allows him to continue making money in McMasterdonia. Who cares if Albert is suspending civil liberties? Those have been suspended in Floresque since the Renaissance. Fendrina Quarrovth has no desire to meddle in the affairs of a foreign nation, but is inclined to support Albert against foreign intrusion at least until he gets really out of control. If I RPed a radical, leftist, revolutionary republic modeled on 1790s France I wouldn't support Albert or Gunrei, but I would support Whent and her gang of republicans branded "terrorists".

The NPTO and DU united behind the new Royal government eventually but I can't help but feel if there was more internal conflict people would be more inclined or even excited to address international issues if people could expect some argument in the alliance chambers. Why bother addressing it with the NPTO if you know it will just end in a straightforward vote and across-the-board agreement in a few days anyway?

Think about why your nation supported the resolution endorsing the McMasterdonian government in Plembobria. This is a handful of people who perhaps have the mandate of noble blood, but control no territory in the land they claim. If your nation is an idealistic supporter of governments broadly endorsed by the people, perhaps you would support Amira and her friends. But if your nation wants this conflict to end quickly, perhaps you would support Albert.

If this sort of conflict between nations carried over into the council chambers of the DU/NPTO, I think they would be more active. It may take longer for them to come to a decision, but the arguments from either side would make for more compelling reading and I think getting a resolution through the org would seem like less of a chore for the participants. But that's just me. I'd also hate to see the Novrith Pact I just came up with end with nothing to argue with the East about!

There is still not enough investment for many of us to be involved in this RP. Certainly if you had gone through the more familiar scenario of a warlord-dictator seizing power and committing genocide, nations more attuned to this kind of geopolitical specimen would be more willing to respond in the name of human rights. Currently we see a number of aristocratic or theocratic candidates for the throne -- equally undesirable candidates that make us democratic nations hesitant to pick sides -- especially in a conflict where our natural resources aren't at stake. It's a strange sight to see the War of the Roses in the 21st century.

Kannex has just gone through several wars to fight communism, its most hated enemy. Now a number of nations in the north are fighting over some dead royals. As a nation that prizes the rule of law and frowns upon non-Christian rule, we do not support Gunrei -- but the rest of the conflict seems like legitimate state parties engaged in a slugfest. We have no connection to either Plem or McM -- which government do we back? We condemned the McM regime after it attempted to assassinate Plem's royals, but beyond that there's very little Kannexan skin in the game.

The "imperialistic East" is really a propaganda construct. Syrixia's part of it, as is Kannex, Nebula, and Guslantis. The first three have stopped fighting over puppet states in the name of capitalism vs. communism, and Guslantis has practically been destroyed. Syrixia's the only one who bothers to assert her power, now as an empire, but she hardly counts as the entire so-called "East" bloc.

A better comparison would be the war in Syria. Simply replace the Assads with the Royals, and IS with the Flemingovianists. These things do happen in the 21st century. And I thought a gradual unfolding of the crisis over a year and a number of months would be better than a dictator suddenly seizing power. Unfortunately part of the problem has been that the democratic candidate was to be RP'd by Eluvatar who didn't post at all, and who I then had to later pass on to Insaniac. Amira would be the best person to support from a democratic standpoint.

I accept you do not have much skin in the game, which is certainly a realist perspective. You won't be involved unless it is in your interest to be involved, which is fine, but limits the RP somewhat I guess. At the same time, allowing a nation to fall into the realm of being a failed state - with the associated genocides that will occur under Gunrei and the complete overhaul of laws from secular based to religion based will not be good for peace in the world. What is the investment for the war within Guslantis?

Only point I was making really is like what Myroria said, nations are both too militaristic and too averse to conflict. Not all states would simply sit by and watch a nation collapse into a failed state. East vs. West is a propaganda tool used to stir up some animosity between East and West, and to make a check on the powers of the East who have been involved in the wars that made no sense (tm). Even if those wars have stopped now, the rest of the world won't forget so quickly.

Guslantis has been a friend and actively involved in the affairs of the East; the fall of the Guslant government would affect things such as trade with Kannex, Syrixia, etc. Of course we don't really specific in RP who trades with whom the most, but I assume the countries I RP with the most tend also to be my biggest trade partners, by nature. For one I don't know much about McM; I don't have as much investment in McM as nothing is at stake. A faraway, backwards nation goes into chaos. If you directly provoke the Eastern nations, you'll find more of a response.

Enough talking about the NPTO and other threadjack discussions Already. I feel a New Organization would be better because the NPTO not only does have a poor government which there only is an Assembly and Chairman, it is also badly presented (I seriously can't take you seriously with that badly drawn seal)

Kannex:

Guslantis has been a friend and actively involved in the affairs of the East; the fall of the Guslant government would affect things such as trade with Kannex, Syrixia, etc. Of course we don't really specific in RP who trades with whom the most, but I assume the countries I RP with the most tend also to be my biggest trade partners, by nature. For one I don't know much about McM; I don't have as much investment in McM as nothing is at stake. A faraway, backwards nation goes into chaos. If you directly provoke the Eastern nations, you'll find more of a response.

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Well I guess the problem with detailed RP threads and factbooks is that people have to read them I've been trying to summarize them more recently.

Backwards is obviously highly subjective, especially given that it was a modern democratic nation until 2012. Most of the issues have been a result of anti-secular movements, which are seen all over the real world.

Direct provocation would seem difficult from a civil war standpoint. I mean we did kill hundred of SDKY scientists and only received a limited response. We 'killed' the King of Plembobria and even that response was somewhat limited. Our monarch was killed in Eumenor, causing us to blockade their trade. We declared war on Plembobria. Terrorists from McMasterdonia were involved in killing the Syrixian Prime Minister. Do we need to destroy the Syrixian capital next?

I don't think lack of provocation is the issue at all. I think it is just the way people RP, as Myro said. Being overly militaristic and not wanting to offend. IC/OOC divides are super important for effective RPing.

Vazos:

Syrixia:

I'm gonna go anthropologist here.

When an organization here gets too big or its purpose has passed, they become useless. The DU and NPTO are too big and inert, and the Helmebaine and Faibuaizu are useless now.

We have two options:
1) Abolish all four, and if nations want, they can construct small military and economic alliances.
2) Create an all-encompassing organization.

Click to expand...

This is also not anything like what anthropologists do.

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An anthropologist studies humans. And from what I've seen, the bigger an organization gets, the more people just ignore it. That's a trend in humans.

Kannex:

The "imperialistic East" is really a propaganda construct. Syrixia's part of it, as is Kannex, Nebula, and Guslantis. The first three have stopped fighting over puppet states in the name of capitalism vs. communism, and Guslantis has practically been destroyed. Syrixia's the only one who bothers to assert her power, now as an empire, but she hardly counts as the entire so-called "East" bloc.

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I'm a man, thanks.

Anyways, Syrixia isn't really fully eastern anymore. We want to become some sort of half-east half-west mishmash. Syrixia is a liberal nation. All for one, one for all!

Syrixia:

Kannex:

The "imperialistic East" is really a propaganda construct. Syrixia's part of it, as is Kannex, Nebula, and Guslantis. The first three have stopped fighting over puppet states in the name of capitalism vs. communism, and Guslantis has practically been destroyed. Syrixia's the only one who bothers to assert her power, now as an empire, but she hardly counts as the entire so-called "East" bloc.

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I'm a man, thanks.

Anyways, Syrixia isn't really fully eastern anymore. We want to become some sort of half-east half-west mishmash. Syrixia is a liberal nation. All for one, one for all!

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Nations are referred to in female pronouns.

plembobria:

Syrixia:

Kannex:

The "imperialistic East" is really a propaganda construct. Syrixia's part of it, as is Kannex, Nebula, and Guslantis. The first three have stopped fighting over puppet states in the name of capitalism vs. communism, and Guslantis has practically been destroyed. Syrixia's the only one who bothers to assert her power, now as an empire, but she hardly counts as the entire so-called "East" bloc.

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I'm a man, thanks.

Anyways, Syrixia isn't really fully eastern anymore. We want to become some sort of half-east half-west mishmash. Syrixia is a liberal nation. All for one, one for all!

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Nations are referred to in female pronouns.

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I actually didn't know that. Thought it was just ships.

Regardless, we are getting a bit off topic here. What do we do with the current organizations? Should we abolish them? Abolish some? What about this new big one? Should we make it or no?

mcmasterdonia:

Kannex:

Guslantis has been a friend and actively involved in the affairs of the East; the fall of the Guslant government would affect things such as trade with Kannex, Syrixia, etc. Of course we don't really specific in RP who trades with whom the most, but I assume the countries I RP with the most tend also to be my biggest trade partners, by nature. For one I don't know much about McM; I don't have as much investment in McM as nothing is at stake. A faraway, backwards nation goes into chaos. If you directly provoke the Eastern nations, you'll find more of a response.

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Well I guess the problem with detailed RP threads and factbooks is that people have to read them I've been trying to summarize them more recently.

Backwards is obviously highly subjective, especially given that it was a modern democratic nation until 2012. Most of the issues have been a result of anti-secular movements, which are seen all over the real world.

Direct provocation would seem difficult from a civil war standpoint. I mean we did kill hundred of SDKY scientists and only received a limited response. We 'killed' the King of Plembobria and even that response was somewhat limited. Our monarch was killed in Eumenor, causing us to blockade their trade. We declared war on Plembobria. Terrorists from McMasterdonia were involved in killing the Syrixian Prime Minister. Do we need to destroy the Syrixian capital next?

I don't think lack of provocation is the issue at all. I think it is just the way people RP, as Myro said. Being overly militaristic and not wanting to offend. IC/OOC divides are super important for effective RPing.

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I wasn't aware McM was involved in the death of the Syrixian PM. But as I've said, there's not much skin in the game. The fact that it's a closed RP doesn't help either. If you allow Eastern nations to get more directly involved aside from dicking around with one party or another, you'll see a bigger response.

McMasterdonian NATIONALS were, but not the Kingdom itself.

I will say, however, I think the lack of response from many eastern nations is due to inactivity. I haven't seen many of them for a while. Those who have, however, such as myself and the Lancerian Empire, do support McMasterdonia quite obviously.