Executive Officers

We also already have a mass telegramming system that Ministers an utilise that is useful for specifically targeting nations. The concern that everyone having it would flood nations is important, and could lead to a dramatic increase in nations blocking 'official' telegram, which would be bad.

I think the border control powers need to remain with long time TNPers. Those at the top of the l.o.s beyond the Vice Delegate make sense. The Vice Delegacy is already desirable for wannabe coopers and having the power to ban the Delegate would not be ideal to be handed to people who could be relatively unknown. For instance I was elected Delegate within 3 or so months of joining our forum. Certainly possible for unknown people to be elected and that much power in game might not be a wise decision.
 
mcmasterdonia:
We also already have a mass telegramming system that Ministers an utilise that is useful for specifically targeting nations. The concern that everyone having it would flood nations is important, and could lead to a dramatic increase in nations blocking 'official' telegram, which would be bad.

I think the border control powers need to remain with long time TNPers. Those at the top of the l.o.s beyond the Vice Delegate make sense. The Vice Delegacy is already desirable for wannabe coopers and having the power to ban the Delegate would not be ideal to be handed to people who could be relatively unknown. For instance I was elected Delegate within 3 or so months of joining our forum. Certainly possible for unknown people to be elected and that much power in game might not be a wise decision.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the Delegate could give Communications powers to Ministers temporarily when they judge it appropriate for that Minister to make an announcement.

I think you mean you were elected Vice Delegate within three months or so of joining the forum.

The thing that would most concern me with the Vice Delegate having Border Control powers is that they should ordinarily be the nation with the closest endorsement count to the Delegate's. By the end of their term, or halfway into a second term, they may even have as much or more influence.
 
mcmasterdonia:
We also already have a mass telegramming system that Ministers an utilise that is useful for specifically targeting nations. The concern that everyone having it would flood nations is important, and could lead to a dramatic increase in nations blocking 'official' telegram, which would be bad.

I think the border control powers need to remain with long time TNPers. Those at the top of the l.o.s beyond the Vice Delegate make sense. The Vice Delegacy is already desirable for wannabe coopers and having the power to ban the Delegate would not be ideal to be handed to people who could be relatively unknown. For instance I was elected Delegate within 3 or so months of joining our forum. Certainly possible for unknown people to be elected and that much power in game might not be a wise decision.
Click to expand...
Again, the problem isn't the office. If we entrust noobies to be delegates then we will get what we deserve.

But from a pure regional security standpoint, it's dubious not to give the 2nd in command these powers.


I think you guys are trying to solve a problem by getting rid of a symptom. We need to elect people to roles that have power that we trust. If we don't then what I'm saying about rogues not only can happen, it will happen.
 
If we only ever grant opportunities to betray us to people we trust, the number of people we trust may grow too slowly for us to survive as a region, as the only real way to earn trust is to demonstrate trustworthiness. I think that opening serious responsibilities to people whom we want to trust but aren't yet completely certain of is appropriate and necessary. We should keep in mind that that is just what we are doing, however.

A thought occurs to me.

One major utility of Regional Officers would be prominently displaying government officials that nations of the region can then seek out to contact with appropriate matters. One problem is that we have a lot of government officials: 1 Speaker, 2 Deputy Speakers, 1 Delegate, 6 Ministers serving 7 Ministries, 3 Justices, 1 Vice Delegate, and 12 Security Councilors (soon, hopefully, to be 13).

Even the Security Council alone would exceed our limit of 12 Regional Officers. I suppose we should continue the practice of mentioning SC members in the WFE whom the Delegate would like more nations to endorse, and not add any as Regional Officers. That leaves us with plenty of room for the Vice Delegate, Ministers, and Attorney General. I'm not sure that the Court Justices would need to be listed, but welcome discussion of that question. I think it is more likely appropriate to list the Speaker, but not the Deputy Speakers.
 
Having thought about it, I agree that all Ministers having access to Communications at all times would be problematic. McM's suggestion for the Delegate to give Ministers access temporarily and when the Delegate deems it prudent could work, or we could give Communications access to the Minister of Communications and expect that telegrams will go through them.

punk d:
But from a pure regional security standpoint, it's dubious not to give the 2nd in command these powers.

I think you guys are trying to solve a problem by getting rid of a symptom. We need to elect people to roles that have power that we trust. If we don't then what I'm saying about rogues not only can happen, it will happen.
Click to expand...
It really isn't dubious. If you give Border Control to the Vice Delegate, you are giving them the direct means to put themselves in the Delegacy by ejecting and banning the Delegate, because they are (ideally) the second highest endorsed nation in The North Pacific. It's easy to say that we should only elect people we trust Vice Delegate, but I'm failing to understand why we would suddenly start taking that more seriously now than we did before. Even before Regional Officers, electing Vice Delegates who had not yet proven they were completely trustworthy was extremely dangerous, but it did happen.

I don't think we should be imprudent with Border Control based on idealism. If we're saying it doesn't make sense not to give the Vice Delegate these powers because what is the purpose of the Vice Delegate if we can't trust them, perhaps we need to be asking ourselves if the Vice Delegate serves a necessary purpose at all. As I see it, we could abolish popular election to the office and have the Security Councillor at the top of the LoS serve as Vice Delegate, and be far more secure for it. What exactly is the purpose of popularly electing both the Delegate and Vice Delegate, except doubling the potential for a coup by political infiltration of our popularly elected institutions?
 
Cormac:
If we're saying it doesn't make sense not to give the Vice Delegate these powers because what is the purpose of the Vice Delegate if we can't trust them, perhaps we need to be asking ourselves if the Vice Delegate serves a necessary purpose at all. As I see it, we could abolish popular election to the office and have the Security Councillor at the top of the LoS serve as Vice Delegate, and be far more secure for it. What exactly is the purpose of popularly electing both the Delegate and Vice Delegate, except doubling the potential for a coup by political infiltration of our popularly elected institutions?
Click to expand...
I agree with this. I imagine some people might not like the sound of "abolish popular election", so I would like to add my :2c: by saying that Security Councilors are elected/approved by the region in a similar fashion to the VD. Ideally, however, Security Councilors are people we trust far more than the run of the mill Vice Delegate. Therefore, having a Security Councilor in an easy-to-coup-from position makes much more sense than having a possibly less trustworthy Vice Delegate in that same position.
 
Sheesh. Just leave Border Control in the Delegate's hands. No one says we have to implement border control officers. Just because someone is VD or on the SC doesn't necessarily mean they're completely trustworthy (regardless of time served or their prominence in NS). I'm sure all elected/appointed Delegates that went rogue were considered trustworthy at some point.
 
Given the evidenced governmental love of all things carpet, i propose the following titles:

Delegate --> Shag Pile
Home affairs --> Knotted
Foreign affairs --> turkish
Defence --> Needle Felt.

It would make things much clearer.
 
Eliminating the Vice Delegate would require several Constitutional (and other legal stuff) changes since there are specific duties associated with the role legally.
 
flemingovia:
Given the evidenced governmental love of all things carpet, i propose the following titles:

Delegate --> Shag Pile
Home affairs --> Knotted
Foreign affairs --> turkish
Defence --> Needle Felt.

It would make things much clearer.
Click to expand...
Why bother? Let's cut right to the chase.

Region- The Carpet Pacific

Motto- Where the democracy has carpets, and the carpets are strong and plentiful.

Delegate Title- Kaoud Oriental Rugs Store Manager
 
Gracius Maximus:
Eliminating the Vice Delegate would require several Constitutional (and other legal stuff) changes since there are specific duties associated with the role legally.
Click to expand...
So you're against taking a certain action because it would be too much work?
 
Every leader needs a second in command. It's a custom of society and a part of government. And it is so because it works. There is no reason to get rid of the VD; that's outlandish.
 
quak1234:
Gracius Maximus:
Eliminating the Vice Delegate would require several Constitutional (and other legal stuff) changes since there are specific duties associated with the role legally.
Click to expand...
So you're against taking a certain action because it would be too much work?
Click to expand...
Hmm. Please outline how I stated that I would be against such an action within that post.
 
Gracius Maximus:
quak1234:
Gracius Maximus:
Eliminating the Vice Delegate would require several Constitutional (and other legal stuff) changes since there are specific duties associated with the role legally.
Click to expand...
So you're against taking a certain action because it would be too much work?
Click to expand...
Hmm. Please outline how I stated that I would be against such an action within that post.
Click to expand...
I admit I was wrong. I apologize. I feel mildly strongly about this, so the point made by you which was not in favor of my argument, I immediately took as being against my argument. I realize now that you were stating a valid and welcome point. I am really sorry. I overacted. And I was feeling argumentative. Sorry.
 
quak1234:
Gracius Maximus:
quak1234:
Gracius Maximus:
Eliminating the Vice Delegate would require several Constitutional (and other legal stuff) changes since there are specific duties associated with the role legally.
Click to expand...
So you're against taking a certain action because it would be too much work?
Click to expand...
Hmm. Please outline how I stated that I would be against such an action within that post.
Click to expand...
I admit I was wrong. I apologize. I feel mildly strongly about this, so the point made by you which was not in favor of my argument, I immediately took as being against my argument. I realize now that you were stating a valid and welcome point. I am really sorry. I overacted. And I was feeling argumentative. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Hey, at least you're man enough to apologize up front, instead of some clever way like I do whenever I mess up. :lol:
 
I've started a topic in the Regional Assembly for an Executive Reform bill that should cover legislation along the lines we've discussed here.

I think there's a broad consensus on the basics, hopefully we can work out acceptable details swiftly :)
 
As things stand now, all my ministers (except Mall :P ) have Communication, Appearance, and Polls. Myro additionally has Embassy control.

In terms of security, our biggest threat now is the same as it always has been: a group of multiple coupers. With the addition of Regional Officers, this problem becomes somewhat larger (in that any rogue delegate could appoint multiple people as officers to help them banject) and also somewhat smaller (in that regional officers will use more influence to ban and eject than the delegate will, meaning any group will be able to eject less than they would have if they slingshat the delegacy around).

Ergo, our best means of defense is as it always has been - promote endorsement and influence gathering among TNP residents to increase the costs that would-be coupers will face.

As for the existence of the Vice Delegate seat, I think it serves two purposes. One, it is an administrative role that is not suited for long-term SC members who lack the daily activity that running the SC requires. Two, it is a gateway into higher level TNP service that gives new nations a chance to prove their credibility and reliability in elected office without the same urgency of the delegate spot.
 
SillyString:
As for the existence of the Vice Delegate seat, I think it serves two purposes. One, it is an administrative role that is not suited for long-term SC members who lack the daily activity that running the SC requires. Two, it is a gateway into higher level TNP service that gives new nations a chance to prove their credibility and reliability in elected office without the same urgency of the delegate spot.
Click to expand...
I basically agree with this and see it as a good reason not to give the Vice Delegate access to Border Control, as that will lead to less willingness to elect a newer citizen as Vice Delegate (as it should).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top