The Civil War

As proposed by the Guslantis National Cabinet here,

The nation of Cronaal is in turmoil over the Civil War in its areas. We, as supporters of democracy, ask for the Democratic Union's help in the matter, and help utilize the proposed plan in motion. All of the proposal is open to debate, and Guslantis only wants to help those in need of help within the nation of Cronaal.

Sincerely,

Jordan Tucker
Ambassador of Guslantis to the Democratic Union

The Plembobrian delegation would like to advocate of course of watchful neutrality.

Syrixia will send a 5,000-man peacekeeping force, and we will notify Scandigrad to open a major discussion on this. Who better than to get this to mainstream noticement than the Chairman?

However it is to note that we in Syrixia will not use our peacekeeping forces for bloody combat due to their obvious PEACEKEEPING roles, so do not attempt to get them to fight in any sort of bloody combat.

The force is en route to Pigletville now. PM me when they arrive.

As of right now, the official view of the Democratic Union is that this is an eternal matter regarding a non-member nation, but will be monitoring the situation closely.

We are not here to serve as region police, but we'll keep an eye on the situation and hold nations or non-state actors that violate human rights accountable.

Naturally this matter is under deliberation, and I encourage member states to deliberate in this thread.

I would like to ask for the Democratic Union's help not for its regional armies, but for its neutrality and humanitarian ways. Cronaal is in the midst of a civil war, and its civilians are dying. These civilian ships will only be used for the transportation of refugees while under fire from Cronaal rebels. The purpose of the DU is to protect the civil rights of the government at hand, and these refugees do not have civil rights while dying! I petition the Democratic Union to assist my cause, and save these Cronaali rebels.

The Honourable Ambassador from Guslantis presumes that it is the responsibility of the DU to protect the civil liberties and political rights of those who do not belong to member states. I cannot agree with that assessment. The Democratic Union is a body of like-minded nations, whose core purpose, should be to pay attention to our own back yard. I do not believe it would be appropriate for us to be heavy handed in response to what appears to be a legitimate attempt by a legitimate Government to put down terrorists and rebels who threaten the social and financial institutions of the state.

I also believe that the Ambassador presents some confusing remarks. Are we to be saving the rebels, or the citizens who the rebels fire upon? Are we to save them all? Where are we to send all these people? We would not be able to put rebels in the same refugee camps as those of whom they have previously attacked. This sounds like a logistical nightmare to me.

mcmasterdonia:

The Honourable Ambassador from Guslantis presumes that it is the responsibility of the DU to protect the civil liberties and political rights of those who do not belong to member states. I cannot agree with that assessment. The Democratic Union is a body of like-minded nations, whose core purpose, should be to pay attention to our own back yard. I do not believe it would be appropriate for us to be heavy handed in response to what appears to be a legitimate attempt by a legitimate Government to put down terrorists and rebels who threaten the social and financial institutions of the state.

I also believe that the Ambassador presents some confusing remarks. Are we to be saving the rebels, or the citizens who the rebels fire upon? Are we to save them all? Where are we to send all these people? We would not be able to put rebels in the same refugee camps as those of whom they have previously attacked. This sounds like a logistical nightmare to me.

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As the nation to possibly be affected by the decisions made, I must express this is true. You cannot propose something and give no explanation as to who or how it shall be done in any way, tut. And as a non-DU nation, who also doesn't plan on joining, there is little that can be done for Cronaal and the citizens regarding. It could be possible to escort refugees and people rendered homeless due to the combat, assuming that humanitarian aid is authorized for non-DU nations.

That doesn't mean that DU states can't send help themselves if they want to. The only thing they can't do is say they are sending help on behalf of the DU. The nations sending help should be sending help on behalf of themselves. The DU as an organization does not want to partake in the conflict.

Thus, if you want to send help, regardless of if you're a DU state or a non-DU state, do it on your own behalf like Syrixia has.

That's how we see it.

I do not believe Syrixia can just send people into cronaal without the support of the government of Cronaal. If Syrixia volunteers and workers are brutally murdered and tortured by Cronaal rebels they will blame their government for sending people in willy-nilly with no consultation process whatsoever

mcmasterdonia:

I do not believe Syrixia can just send people into cronaal without the support of the government of Cronaal. If Syrixia volunteers and workers are brutally murdered and tortured by Cronaal rebels they will blame their government for sending people in willy-nilly with no consultation process whatsoever

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Yes, this is also true.
I support them sending soldiers into the nation of Cronaal but the inclusion of their Navy and such scale of the Army being sent into the nation is unneeded, I believe that the Air Force would be of more use than either of the previously mentioned as most of this War is in the mountains. The Navy has little ability to change anything from the ocean and isn't it rather costly to send thousands of soldiers into the mountain ranges of Cronaal in a matter of a few days?

Honestly, there's a lot of civil wars here.

Cronaal:

mcmasterdonia:

I do not believe Syrixia can just send people into cronaal without the support of the government of Cronaal. If Syrixia volunteers and workers are brutally murdered and tortured by Cronaal rebels they will blame their government for sending people in willy-nilly with no consultation process whatsoever

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Yes, this is also true.
I support them sending soldiers into the nation of Cronaal but the inclusion of their Navy and such scale of the Army being sent into the nation is unneeded, I believe that the Air Force would be of more use than either of the previously mentioned as most of this War is in the mountains. The Navy has little ability to change anything from the ocean and isn't it rather costly to send thousands of soldiers into the mountain ranges of Cronaal in a matter of a few days?

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Costly, but feasible assuming the deployment is a division ready force. Naturally there are logistics holes, but the battle group offers additional support and force projection, but not necessarily additional firepower.

Regardless, politically speaking it is still a reckless move.

Nessuno:

Honestly, there's a lot of civil wars here.

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There are two.

Cronaal:

There are two.

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In any case we try to help.

Scandigrad:

Cronaal:

mcmasterdonia:

I do not believe Syrixia can just send people into cronaal without the support of the government of Cronaal. If Syrixia volunteers and workers are brutally murdered and tortured by Cronaal rebels they will blame their government for sending people in willy-nilly with no consultation process whatsoever

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Yes, this is also true.
I support them sending soldiers into the nation of Cronaal but the inclusion of their Navy and such scale of the Army being sent into the nation is unneeded, I believe that the Air Force would be of more use than either of the previously mentioned as most of this War is in the mountains. The Navy has little ability to change anything from the ocean and isn't it rather costly to send thousands of soldiers into the mountain ranges of Cronaal in a matter of a few days?

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Costly, but feasible assuming the deployment is a division ready force. Naturally there are logistics holes, but the battle group offers additional support and force projection, but not necessarily additional firepower.

Regardless, politically speaking it is still a reckless move.

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I think Cronaal is pretty fine with the support; think of it this way, if someone was falling off a cliff would you ask them if you could help them, or just be human and immediately dash for him and pull him up, out of danger?

We are a region, a community; it is our job to protect each other in dire times. That's how Syrixia sees it.

Besides, with the way things are going, the rebels probably would've got into the Crimson Palace or at least would have an easier time trying to get in because a nation who so direly wants to help was busy in negotiations.

Fast acting = Promptness and More Mobility = Effectiveness.

Syrixia:

Fast acting = Promptness and More Mobility = Effectiveness.

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Or you could end up on the wrong side of the fight.

And from a military standpoint, you risk advancing too far and having supply lines cut off. Worst off, the second you lose the initiative and your attack grinds to a halt, generally speaking, shit hits the fan.

Syrixia:

if someone was falling off a cliff would you ask them if you could help them, or just be human and immediately dash for him and pull him up, out of danger?

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This analogy assumes that there isn't another side to the coin. A more appropriate analogy would be if I saw two friends fighting, would I jump in and pick a side? To think that I could be a mediating third party by applying force would be ignorant.

Not only that, it appears that Syrixia has made no effort to consult with the Government of Cronaal. Modern nations who value their own sovereignty do not simply send in 5000 troops (peacekeepers or not) without any consultation with the legitimate government of the nation or without any consultation/approval from the Democratic Union.

I think Cronaal is pretty fine with the support; think of it this way,

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I honestly do not know whether we should take the Government of Syrixia seriously when it does things like this. There has been no public consultation between your government and that of Cronaal. I condemn the Syrixian Government for invading another nations sovereignty without due process or consultation.

In general, Olvern echoes the comments that McMasterdonia has made.

(OOC: RPers need to learn that unilateral intervention in the real world is generally seen as a very naughty thing to do)

Lord Nwahs:

In general, Olvern echoes the comments that McMasterdonia has made.

(OOC: RPers need to learn that unilateral intervention in the real world is generally seen as a very naughty thing to do)

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Aurora Orb concurs. Invasion or not, without any due process or consultation, it could play out badly internationally.

It may seem out of place but I most notify the partakers of this discussion that the conflict in Ganjarius is over and has now moved onto the east, Hontawei which is also known as 'The Large Province'

Ganjarius is left in a state of disrepair and shall be revoked as the nation's capital post-conflict.

Phew. At least we managed to help defend the Crimson Palace.

That was close, though.

The Archegnuman government is preparing naval vessels to rescue refugees and vulnerable citizens of TNP.

THANK YOU. Atleast someone shares Syrixia's opinion.

If you want, send us a private message and we can coordinate a meeting on strategies, etc.

mcmasterdonia:

Not only that, it appears that Syrixia has made no effort to consult with the Government of Cronaal. Modern nations who value their own sovereignty do not simply send in 5000 troops (peacekeepers or not) without any consultation with the legitimate government of the nation or without any consultation/approval from the Democratic Union.

I think Cronaal is pretty fine with the support; think of it this way,

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I honestly do not know whether we should take the Government of Syrixia seriously when it does things like this. There has been no public consultation between your government and that of Cronaal. I condemn the Syrixian Government for invading another nations sovereignty without due process or consultation.

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The nation of Guslantis DID consult with the Democratic Union, and it was stated by its chairman that it was an external affair. I do not believe that any nation, regardless of the status in the DU should attack another, however, condemnation is not supported by the Guslants. We will not let the suffering people of Cronaal die while this is debated by the Democratic Union. Lives are at risk here, and I don't care if Syrixia was a dictatorship or a republic! At least they are trying to help a nation provide stability.

Indeed, Guslantis! If we had spent time with consultation and other things, imagine how many more lives would be lost! Some nations can spend time with formalities, but other nations prefer a more quick stance! Some nations have to do it if they wanna save lives, and it may as well be us! If other nations wanna join in only after formalities, that's their ideology! We believe the sanctity of human life should be upheld! This is bigger than Osship, bigger than the Yugoslavia Situation! Bigger than a lot of things, in fact! Thus, Guslantis and Syrixia have decided to immediately and quickly step in! For humanity's sake!

Archegnum:

The Archegnuman government is preparing naval vessels to rescue refugees and vulnerable citizens of TNP.

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You should inform the legitimate Government of Cronaal of your intentions.

Syrixia:

THANK YOU. Atleast someone shares Syrixia's opinion.

If you want, send us a private message and we can coordinate a meeting on strategies, etc.

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No. That is not the point here Syrixia, your government has not informed the Government of Cronaal. You do not get to simply send in 5000 troops whenever you feel like it! That is not how good goverments perform on the world stage.

Bootsie:

mcmasterdonia:

Not only that, it appears that Syrixia has made no effort to consult with the Government of Cronaal. Modern nations who value their own sovereignty do not simply send in 5000 troops (peacekeepers or not) without any consultation with the legitimate government of the nation or without any consultation/approval from the Democratic Union.

I think Cronaal is pretty fine with the support; think of it this way,

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I honestly do not know whether we should take the Government of Syrixia seriously when it does things like this. There has been no public consultation between your government and that of Cronaal. I condemn the Syrixian Government for invading another nations sovereignty without due process or consultation.

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The nation of Guslantis DID consult with the Democratic Union, and it was stated by its chairman that it was an external affair. I do not believe that any nation, regardless of the status in the DU should attack another, however, condemnation is not supported by the Guslants. We will not let the suffering people of Cronaal die while this is debated by the Democratic Union. Lives are at risk here, and I don't care if Syrixia was a dictatorship or a republic! At least they are trying to help a nation provide stability.

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You did consult with the DU, but you did not answer any questions and your initial statement was very conflicting. We need to discuss the logistics of such an operation and make sure that it is above board and handled with due process.

Nations ARE free to independently work with the GOVERNMENT of Cronaal. What they are NOT free to do is to send in thousands of troops without consultation. You cannot simply ASSUME that a foreign government is going to allow you to do that. For all we know the thousands of soldiers could be murdered by Cronaal rebels, and the blood will be on the hands of the incompetent Syrixian Government who is invading another nations soverighty without consultation.

Syrixia:

Indeed, Guslantis! If we had spent time with consultation and other things, imagine how many more lives would be lost! Some nations can spend time with formalities, but other nations prefer a more quick stance! Some nations have to do it if they wanna save lives, and it may as well be us! If other nations wanna join in only after formalities, that's their ideology! We believe the sanctity of human life should be upheld! This is bigger than Osship, bigger than the Yugoslavia Situation! Bigger than a lot of things, in fact! Thus, Guslantis and Syrixia have decided to immediately and quickly step in! For humanity's sake!

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No Syrixia. That is not an excuse to invade another nation. It is inappropriate for you to simply invade at a moments notice, that is not how the Democratic Union should be handling matters. You are simply putting more lives at risk and may potentially escalate the conflict into what looks like foreign engagement and invasion.

Yugoslavia is not a nation in the North Pacific, so I have no idea what conflict you are referring to. I remind the honourable representative that the Democratic Union comprises of nations in the North Pacific, not made up nations, or made up engagements.

I request that Syrixia hold off it's troops before they are all brutally murdered and executed by Cronaal rebels. This will allow Syrixia to participate in the proper consultative process. Otherwise this is an illegal invasion of another nation and one the McMasterdonian Government will not support. We will be reviewing our options towards the Syrixian Government, if they do not respect the sovereignty of other governments, no nation in the DU can be sure that our sovereignty will be respected by them.

OOC: Seriously guys - If you want to send troops into Cronaal you should ask him and have a consultation process. Otherwise we are just hijacking another nations roleplay into one of our issues. No Nation in their right mind, particularly one as small as Syrixia, would invade another nation on a moments notice. Even with peacekeepers.

OOC - Syrixia is rather 'rogue' in this situation, Guslantis is plausible due to our agreements on the Embassy and such.

I believe that the Democratic Union thinks I'm arguing with them, when in fact, I'm not. Guslant defending hovercrafts have evacuated from Cronaal with a ship that will safely take the civilians to the Pigletville commercial district as stated in the proposed plan. We agree that Syrixia should withdraw its "peacekeepers" from Cronaal.

I don't think we're arguing with the Guslantis government. Rather, we're concerned about the unilateral nature of the actions taken by Syrixia.

delete, didn't realize this was in the DU section.

I believe this is in Article VII in the Democratic Union Constitution on National Sovereignty.

Indeed. We are not criticising the approach of Guslantis as such, but we believe that a proper logistical plan should have been set out before action was taken.

We're more concerned at the extreme interventionist approach taken by Syrixia.

I personally think we need to improve instructions on the realism thread to prevent this sort of thing from happening. A more comprehensive RP guide would greatly benefit TNP.

The Spokesman of Eumenor:

I personally think we need to improve instructions on the realism thread to prevent this sort of thing from happening. A more comprehensive RP guide would greatly benefit TNP.

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OOC: You are more than welcome to submit suggestions--- I'm in the middle of finals.

I am also concerned by the nature in which Syrixia is taking this conflict. It will be something I, and I hope all other national representatives, will consider when their observation period is up.

OOC: Best of luck with those. I may post some suggestions at some stage.

No comments from Syrixia, are we to assume that they are simply ignoring our requests for communication and the immediate withdrawal of their invading 'peacekeepers'?

It may be worth telegramming them.

We've been discussing this in Parliament today after the Guslants exited Cronaal. There was a unanimous vote to drop out of the war.

Prime Minister Nursson has been reported commenting "I'm fine with this resolution. We helped at the Crimson Palace; that's all that needed quick protection."

The Military has been ordered to withdraw from the region, and the peacekeeping forces have been wiped of members and rebranded as purely diplomatic.

Infact, we even fired the person who suggested the extreme interventionist approach- Minister Licia Dorina. She's known for being bloodthirsty so...yeah.

Honestly, I find it good riddance. But anyways:

The democratic movement has gained control once more and the Prime Minister as well as the other Ministers have come to their senses.

With the end of the career of Dorina, we hope for greater peace in Cronaal and TNP, and we have made sure there will be no quick, reckless actions again.

Infact, we've been working on this and finalized it last meeting:

*Presents paper to other DU representatives*

Syrixian Constitution- Amendment XIX:

PREAMBLE: Parliament SHALL NOT: Under any circumstances, authorize intervening in the conflicts of another nation without requesting permission to enter the nation's territory, and/or exclaves/enclaves wherever the conflict is occurring.

CLAUSE 1: If the nation Syrixia is requesting permission from has already asked us to help, we shall enter without a formal requesting session.

CLAUSE 2: If Parliament authorizes such a movement without permission from the nation in conflict, the military and/or the people have the right to sue the Parliament and call a court case against them, in which a fair trial by jury shall be held.

CLAUSE 3: In such a TRIAL, Parliament shall be REPRESENTED by the Prime Minister. Both the PLAINTIFF and the DEFENDANT shall have lawyers, who are trained and capable of handling such a CONTROVERSIAL case that the case probably shall be.

CLAUSE 4: If the movement is confirmed to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL during the trial, the Minister(s) who suggested it shall be interrogated and put on probation or possibly have their Ministership terminated if necessary.

CLAUSE 5: If the movement is deemed ACCEPTABLE, then this is entirely against this document. In this case, this CONSTITUTION shall declare MARTIAL LAW unto itself, and the Keeper of the Constitution shall fire Minister(s) and/or Judge(s)/Justice(s) accordingly.

CLAUSE 6: If all the previous CLAUSES excluding CLAUSE 1 does NOT happen, the people have the inalienable right to rise up and take over the government to stop this action. If this happens, and the government of Syrixia is stable after this period, the MILITARY soldiers who go into the nation that of which did nor formally authorize their entrance shall be DEEMED AS ROGUE, and will be disassociated with this NATION.

CLAUSE 7: This amendment may be amended into itself if Parliament votes to. In that session, the new AMENDMENT for this AMENDMENT shall be unveiled.

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This amendment should prohibit the extreme interventionist activities from ever being authorized again. The Prime Minister has approved and this bill is already law in Syrixia.

We shall be joining the Guslants and the DU where we should be as we are in the DU; in peace and tranquility.

This Amendment will also be shared directly, through a post in a new thread.

It is also to note that to promote the new peace, we shall be adding Most Serene to our national pre title.