[discussion] Campaign rules

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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During this election there have been a couple of issues raised which make me wonder whether the RA ought to draw up some rules or guidelines concerning conduct during campaigns?

From my own thoughts, these might cover:

The sending out of PMs (the mods had complaints about this during the current election)

The use of images

The use of the perks of an official position to gain an electoral advantage (such as the seals of office)

Negative Campainging

Making unsubstantiated claims during campaigns (yes, I am looking at you, JhonJoe)


This is just an informal chat at the moment. Any thoughts?
 
The use of seals by an incumbant --- obviously looking at me here. I agree with Gracius Maximus's opinion. I should have used a disclaimer but otherwise, I dont see an issue with an incumbant office holder using the logo of their office. So long as they make clear the executive govt is in no way endorsing them.

PMs -- I again dont see an issue. If admins want to make an admin rule whatever, guess we have to abide, but to me its another way of advertising...similar to RL recieving that campaign flyer in the mail.

Campaign images and logos - another form of campaign advertising. Similar to buying a billboard or tv spot.

Negative campaigning - part of campaigns. A little mud slinging makes it entertaining.

Unsubstatiated claims - see election fraud?

My opinions obviously. But tnp is by majority rule. So whatever the majority want.
 
I do not think that the official seal should have been used for campaigning. With or without a disclaimer. Simple as that.

I don't oppose PMs or telegram campaigns for election lobbying, but obviously if you go overboard it can come back to get you at voting time. I'm cautious about regulating this type of thing too much. If it goes overboard then forum moderation can step in and the same applies for signature image: they should comply with forum rules.

PWLs image in his signature ftr would be against our rules. It is perhaps time to remind people of the rules but I am unconvinced that the RA should be regulating this. In other regions they have tiles that limit campaigning to a single thread that is designated by the election commissioner - I hate these rules and I think they limit the excitement of the election season.

Posted from mobile - apologies for any errors.
 
My current image or the rand paul one? How was it against the rules? I made it after Joe Jhons and plembobria made their campaign banners. I guess 3 wrongs dont make a right. But Ive never saw anywhere where it says you cant campaign in your signature or link to your thread etc.
 
I think this idea is well-intentioned. I think we'd all like to see a bit more decorum during election campaigns, and I'll admit that the seal put me off a little bit. However, I have a few problems with creating campaign rules.

First, there is the issue of how to enforce them. Either by adding election-related crimes to the criminal code, or prosecuting under gross misconduct, the only way to force compliance with election laws are through criminal trials, and I don't think that is productive.

Second, it constrains the behavior of candidates, which withholds information from the voters. I am certain that Jho's baseless and unsubstantiated accusations are part of why he hasn't gotten very many votes so far, and fallout over the seal led to PWL's withdrawal. Plainly put, these things you are suggesting to outlaw or constrain through law are interesting and informative to the voters, and if they were forbidden, we would not have known that the people we were voting for were capable of them.

Third, it disadvantages newcomers to the electoral system. Experienced players will know the law, and know to keep on the right side of it. New players will probably not know the intricacies of our electoral system, and are far more likely to accidentally or unintentionally break a campaign law. Now, ignorance of the law is no excuse, but I'd be afraid that putting a new player up on charges immediately because they dared stand for election before memorizing the legal code would probably put them off of politics forever, and we might lose a player forever. Every TNP delegate started out as a total noob, and probably ran for office early on without success.

It sounds like a good idea at first glance, but I don't think this is a good area to legislate in. Any election/campaign laws would need to address those three concerns before I would consider supporting it.
 
mcmasterdonia:
No, it doesn't comply with the size requirements (the oligarchy approved one). Check the rules page at the top. :P
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Does that make it better if I spoiler tag it?

If admins would have kindly let me know sooner and pointed me to the rule. I wouldve strived to comply sooner. :P
 
I agree with COE and mcm.

The only rules I think we need are from the admins, and with respect to images. Giant images are problematic whether they're election-related or not, so I would love to see a few more fingers shaken at people who step outside the bounds there, to point them toward the rules and remind them to be considerate of users with low bandwidth.
 
First, there is the issue of how to enforce them. Either by adding election-related crimes to the criminal code, or prosecuting under gross misconduct, the only way to force compliance with election laws are through criminal trials, and I don't think that is productive.
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I agree with a lot of what CoE says, although I think that clear guidelines would help even newer candidates.

However, I think it is a real failing in our region that we look to the courts to solve all our problems. If the expressed will of the RA was, say, that election PMs were not sent out, admin could enforce that - perhaps by giving an increase in warn level. In fact, I opened this thread because folks are coming to admins now to bring some regulation to election campaigning, but we prefer to defer to the RA.

I take the point regarding image sizes. Admin have been lax on it recently. I hope this at least reminds people that there are rules in place regarding this.

Using government seals etc to give your campaign an "official" feel? I think that should be a no-no.
 
I might support a law that prohibited the use of the official arms of TNP in campaign literature. Perhaps an amendment to this clause:
TNP Legal Code:
4. The arms of the North Pacific may not be used except to represent the North Pacific or an official regional entity.
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Or maybe an additional clause inserted after it.
 
Currently, the only forum rules concerning images are in connection with signatures. However, the admin team has from time to time received complaints about overly large images in the actual posts, and our primary concern is the width of these images being wider than the post text area (left-right).

As an admin I think we getting to the post where we're going to have to do something about the width of images outside of signatures and in PMs, if to maintain consistency if nothing else.

As to the use of official seals and emblems of office or the region in campaigning, that is something the RA would have to discuss and decide on. Except for the width of images, that is not an admin issue.
 
flemingovia:
During this election there have been a couple of issues raised which make me wonder whether the RA ought to draw up some rules or guidelines concerning conduct during campaigns?

From my own thoughts, these might cover:

The sending out of PMs (the mods had complaints about this during the current election)

The use of images

The use of the perks of an official position to gain an electoral advantage (such as the seals of office)

Negative Campainging

Making unsubstantiated claims during campaigns (yes, I am looking at you, JhonJoe)


This is just an informal chat at the moment. Any thoughts?
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Here's my take:

The sending out of PMs (the mods had complaints about this during the current election)
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Sending out PMs I think is a legitimate practice, provided any such campaign PMs are relevant to the campaign or whatever issue they address (provided it is a legitimate RP issue pertaining to RA Voting, etc.).

PMs have always been, by practice and tradition, covered as 'Free Speech' as long as they don't covey targeted threats, irrelevant spam or obscene material.


The use of images
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It thing intential 'format busting' or the intentional posting of excessively large image files (to the point that it could result in a DOS situation) in posts is a big no-no, IMHO. Same should go for images in PMs that are unsolicited by the recipient.

I like to see images in sig files smaller than 250 or so pixels in height and none that exceed 800 pixels.



The use of the perks of an official position to gain an electoral advantage (such as the seals of office)
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That's a legitimate complaint if someone intends to use it for that purpose. I don't think most people are dim witted enough to actually be influenced by the use of seals in campaign threads or PMs).


Making unsubstantiated claims during campaigns (yes, I am looking at you, JhonJoe)
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That's just the normal politics around here. Some people get nailed by bogus claims more than others. At least no one has been called a cross dressing crack dealer this election. :P

What really irks me is RL accusations (and we know what I am referring to here) posted with the intent of damaging an RP campaign. Or the incessant repetitions of RL accusations that are patently false. That is one of the big things I find particularly annoying.

Then again, tactics like that are apparently going to become the 'new normal' in TNP if a tight lid isn't put on it.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
I might support a law that prohibited the use of the official arms of TNP in campaign literature. Perhaps an amendment to this clause:
TNP Legal Code:
4. The arms of the North Pacific may not be used except to represent the North Pacific or an official regional entity.
Click to expand...
Or maybe an additional clause inserted after it.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't necessarily oppose that, but I sort of thought the fact that you should not use the official seal for election campaign purposes was common knowledge... but I guess not :P

I think we are all on the same page with this discussion.
 
N00bs dont know. You have to tell them. Heck some old timers dont even know the law. I had to explain to them that if the AGs office declines to prosecute a case the law allows up to 30 days for the complaintant to decide to manage the case themselves.
 
To clarify, it is not currently against the law to use the AG seal in one's campaign message, but Mcm considers it common knowledge that it should not be, on general principles.
 
mcmasterdonia:
I do not think that the official seal should have been used for campaigning. With or without a disclaimer. Simple as that.

I don't oppose PMs or telegram campaigns for election lobbying, but obviously if you go overboard it can come back to get you at voting time. I'm cautious about regulating this type of thing too much. If it goes overboard then forum moderation can step in and the same applies for signature image: they should comply with forum rules.
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The above quote from McM sums up what I think. Furthermore, I'll like to add that sending mass PMs can backfire: I personally dislike to get unnecessary PMs and when I get one, that person is usually loosing my vote...

Plus, I am guessing outlawing campaign tactics impacts over complicating campaigning and I'm guessing that is an undesirable burden for the community as a whole.
 
Naturally, campaigning should be illegal and we should elect our officials by pulling a name out of a hat.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Naturally, campaigning should be illegal and we should elect our officials by pulling a name out of a hat.
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I think you may be onto something there!

I would rather be governed by the the first 5 people picked at random from the list of RA members than the constant small group of people who constantly get elected and reelected. :P
 
Just to demonstrate how ridiculous that is, here is a list of randomly selected RA members, paired with our elected positions:

Delegate: Leaden
Vice Delegate: Ator People
Speaker: Syrixia
AG: The Democratic Republic of Tomb
Justices: Elegarth, Jamie, Saucistan

We got lucky and have a few recognizable names on here, but the delegate is about to lose RA membership cause they haven't voted on anything since they got in 2 months ago.
 
Other than Leaden I could totally imagine something like this happening in the future going forward.
 
I thought that draw was a little lucky, so I tried it again. This result would be equally likely:

Delegate: Andrew
Vice Delegate: Sanctaria
Speaker: stalin1953
AG: King Ems
Justices: Ludvaria, HuAt, Lord Nwahs
 
Given the pool of RA members there's probably bound to be at least one semi-decent person on the list.

Maybe we should make Random-Government-Of-The-Month a thing. /s
 
Romanoffia:
Lord Ravenclaw:
Naturally, campaigning should be illegal and we should elect our officials by pulling a name out of a hat.
Click to expand...
I think you may be onto something there!

I would rather be governed by the the first 5 people picked at random from the list of RA members than the constant small group of people who constantly get elected and reelected. :P
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But Roman, You've been elected to government positions multiple times. Doesn't that make you part of your alleged small group?

Actually, your statement doesn't hold up to the facts, and repeating it only serves to mislead those unfamiliar with TNP history. Of all the feeders, TNP is probably the easiest place where a relative newcomer can have a shot.

Two years ago you were complaining that the SC was the villainous beating heart of the oligarchy. You were certain the private areas of that forum contained all sorts of nefarious plotting. Once you became a member you could see things for yourself. No big deal, right? I'm still waiting to hear you admit you were wrong about that, so I doubt you will stop banging the "conspiracy theory" drum any time soon.

Truly, I don't mind the ranting. I do mind when others are duped by false allegations.


As for the discussion about campaign rules., I am FOR the things mentioned above. Let's have at it with the wild and crazy campaigns. Sig sizes do need to comply with prior guidelines, tho.
 
GBM, bless you for speaking the truth. We've all seen Roman's tired allegations too many times to feel motivated to respond most of the time, but they do seem to be taking hold with new members. We should all be making more posts like yours.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Just to demonstrate how ridiculous that is, here is a list of randomly selected RA members, paired with our elected positions:

Delegate: Leaden
Vice Delegate: Ator People
Speaker: Syrixia
AG: The Democratic Republic of Tomb
Justices: Elegarth, Jamie, Saucistan

We got lucky and have a few recognizable names on here, but the delegate is about to lose RA membership cause they haven't voted on anything since they got in 2 months ago.
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Id support Ator for Vice and Elegarth and sauceistan for justice as well as Tomb for AG
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Just to demonstrate how ridiculous that is, here is a list of randomly selected RA members, paired with our elected positions:

Delegate: Leaden
Vice Delegate: Ator People
Speaker: Syrixia
AG: The Democratic Republic of Tomb
Justices: Elegarth, Jamie, Saucistan

We got lucky and have a few recognizable names on here, but the delegate is about to lose RA membership cause they haven't voted on anything since they got in 2 months ago.
Click to expand...
I humbly accept!? Hahaha. Nice one.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
I thought that draw was a little lucky, so I tried it again. This result would be equally likely:

Delegate: Andrew
Vice Delegate: Sanctaria
Speaker: stalin1953
AG: King Ems
Justices: Ludvaria, HuAt, Lord Nwahs
Click to expand...
Not sure how to respond to that at all :P
 
Great Bights Mum:
Romanoffia:
Lord Ravenclaw:
Naturally, campaigning should be illegal and we should elect our officials by pulling a name out of a hat.
Click to expand...
I think you may be onto something there!

I would rather be governed by the the first 5 people picked at random from the list of RA members than the constant small group of people who constantly get elected and reelected. :P
Click to expand...
But Roman, You've been elected to government positions multiple times. Doesn't that make you part of your alleged small group?

Actually, your statement doesn't hold up to the facts, and repeating it only serves to mislead those unfamiliar with TNP history. Of all the feeders, TNP is probably the easiest place where a relative newcomer can have a shot.

Two years ago you were complaining that the SC was the villainous beating heart of the oligarchy. You were certain the private areas of that forum contained all sorts of nefarious plotting. Once you became a member you could see things for yourself. No big deal, right? I'm still waiting to hear you admit you were wrong about that, so I doubt you will stop banging the "conspiracy theory" drum any time soon.

Truly, I don't mind the ranting. I do mind when others are duped by false allegations.


As for the discussion about campaign rules., I am FOR the things mentioned above. Let's have at it with the wild and crazy campaigns. Sig sizes do need to comply with prior guidelines, tho.
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Hey, I'm the perpetual 'outsider' no matter how long I have been in the region.

I may be one of handful of people who has been in TNP in one nation or another since TNP was created. Yet, I have always been considered to be an 'outsider'. Sure, I've been elected to umpteen gazillion positions, but still an outsider for all intents and purposes.

But that's OK by me because I have never ascribed to the 'go along to get along' paradigm. I believe in calling a spade a spade and a club a club, to use a gambling adage. If people find that abrasive, then so be it. It's their problem, not mine. :P

OOC: The Oligarchy thingy is a gag. A joke. Everyone knows it. Lighten up and have a sense of humour. :console:
 
The Oligarchy clearly has no humor when you call them out and tell them they have no clothes, similar to the emperor.

New%20York%20Post.png
 
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