At Vote: Repeal "Multilateral Prosecution Act" [Complete] [Complete]

r3naissanc3r

TNPer
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Repeal "Multilateral Prosecution Act"

Proposed by: Mousebumples | Resolution link | World Assembly forum thread

Description: WA General Assembly Resolution #99: Multilateral Prosecution Act (Category: Human Rights; Strength: Mild) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY:

VALUES consistency and fair treatment of all individuals within the justice system of all WA member nations.

UNDERSTANDS that the resolution in question creates a separate process and set of protocols for trying stateless individuals outside of the typical legal channels within WA member nations, which results in the following issues:

Individuals may become stateless by choice, should they prefer to take their risks at trial through this less used process;

Stateless individuals may elect to declare a nationality simply to avoid the process laid out in this resolution; and

The resolution implies that the lives and/or rights of stateless individuals are valued differently than those who have a stated nationality, which is not something that the World Assembly should endorse within its resolutions.

RECOMMENDS that the WA eliminate the possibility for unequal treatment of stateless individuals.

BELIEVES that this resolution establishes a "separate but equal" process, which is inherently unfair and minimizes both the humanity of stateless individuals and the rights that should be accorded to them.

REALIZES that since the passage of this resolution, the World Assembly has worked to ensure that the following resolutions regarding due process have been clarified to ensure that the details of the following resolutions affect all individuals, including those who are stateless:

GAR #37, Fairness in Criminal Trials,

GAR #194, Treatment of Inmates,

GAR#198, Preventing Multiple Trials,

GAR#201, Habeas Corpus, and

GAR#202, Convict Appellate Rights.

ACKNOWLEDGES that the standards provided by the aforementioned pieces of legislation provide greater consistency in the treatment of all individuals whether they are stateless or have declared a nationality, rendering the "protections" provided by this resolution to be unnecessary and thereby merit a repeal.

REPEALS GAR#99, "Multilateral Prosecution Act."
Please vote: For | Against | Abstain | Present

"Abstain" means that you wish for the Delegate to not vote on the resolution at all.
"Present" means that you effectively choose not to participate in this vote. "Present" has no effect on how the Delegate votes.
 
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MINISTERIAL REVIEW

The post in question has been quite divided on reading through the debate thread, and even here we've had Sciongrad (welcome) posting his own interpretation of the proposal too.

When it comes to repeals, they're always tough to gauge if not inherently flawed. Some repeals are obvious in their downfalls and self explanatory when it comes to their removal, others, require a more fine eye. The arguments presented by both sides of the debate here hold water. The question is whose hold more? For me, they both actually balance. Sciongrads interpretation to me coupled with Glen-Rhodes assessment is quite fair. Extradition in itself is a quite complicated process under regular circumstances without the situations described by all parties here.

MINISTERIAL SUGGESTED VOTE

That above said however, I feel this is a chance for greater minds to refine this act to encompass issues raised (despite having existent legislation which does cover a massive amount of bases in relation to prosecutions and trial proceedings) and so I'm tentatively suggesting a FOR vote. However, as a first for this Minister, this is on the basis, that I desire to see a replacement put forth by a party in the near future. I see no harm in having something on the books to deal with this issue, but it should be more refined than what currently exists.

Should no party come forth before this vote concludes expressing a desire to draft a replacement, I will revise this vote to ABSTAIN. I would ask Sciongrad and Mousebumples if they do frequent this thread to keep me abreast of this particular situation.

[me]
 
The NS forum debate seems to be quite divided. I am inclined to support this for the same reason I supported the previous repeal: The issues covered in the resolution seem to be better addressed by separate, of more limited scope resolutions. So I will cast a tentative vote For.

Once again though, I'm hardly an expert on GA matters, so I'd love to hear the opinions of our friendly frequent expert commentators.
 
I'm obviously in favor, and r3n, if I can answer any specific questions you (or anyone else in TNP) might have, I'm happy to do so.

There are ... common arguments offered by the opposition, and I'm expecting to see some of the same mentioned here. I'm off to dinner shortly, but I'll be back later tonight to (again) try to answer any specific questions the TNP voters might have.
 
I like the resolution, it makes a lot of sense to me by the first, second an third read. I am curious to the oppositions arguments, what are they?
 
This whole repeal is built on a misunderstanding of stateless individuals and the purpose of multilateral prosecution. Even if member nations could prosecute stateless individuals (which is a dubious claim, despite Mouse's argument that General Assembly resolution imply that basic concepts of legal jurisdiction are thrown out the window), a multilateral effort to prosecute individuals in confusing situations may be useful. Glen-Rhodes gave a pretty convincing example on the forums:

Glen-Rhodes:
You're also misunderstanding the entire thrust of my argument, which is that the Multilateral Prosecution Act is not a due process rights resolution. It does not seek to confer upon people rights already or subsequently established regarding their detention, prosecution, and sentencing. It's a resolution clarifying jurisdiction issue when a person does not fall under the jurisdiction of any state. You mention extradition. Let's say the WA passes a resolution on financial crimes. If a man sitting in a coffee shop in Mousebumples commits massive wire fraud against people in The Dark Star Republic, and that money passes through Glen-Rhodes banks (which are harmed in the transactions), who has jurisdiction to prosecute? Who extradites to whom?

If the man was a citizen of Mousebumples, maybe TDSR could request extradition, and Mousebumples might reject it because they don't extradite their own nationals. If the man is a national of TDSR, maybe Mousebumples would extradite, because TDSR does have jurisdiction over the crime and the person charged with it is a TDSR national. Maybe even Glen-Rhodes could request extradition, based on rather expansive extraterritoriality laws (the US does this quite a lot), and causes a kerfuffle over jurisdiction.

Now, make the person committing wire fraud stateless, and the situation gets even more complicated. Does Mousebumples have jurisdiction at all to extradite? By what rights do TDSR and Glen-Rhodes have to demand the stateless person be prosecuted in their own courts? Does Mousebumples get to prosecute the stateless person, even though the targets of the massive wire fraud, and the banks used to conduct it, are all outside of Mousebumples' jurisdiction?

Furthermore, the whole argument regarding "separate but equal" is a red herring. This so-called "separate but equal" system simply means that stateless individuals that could not otherwise be prosecuted under a member-nation's own jurisdiction are tried under the International Courthouse for Multilateral Prosecution, which affords defendants the same rights and freedoms guaranteed already by extant World Assembly legislation. By that logic, handicap ramps also create a "separate but equal" system and should be abolished immediately. Furthermore, using the term "separate but equal" to refer to a completely equitable system of due process when it has historically carried connotations of oppression and prejudice is mildly offensive.

I hope this was useful!
 
A few general comments - on the basic points in the rebuttal (a variation on this, perhaps formatted differently or quoting GR's specific post, etc., will be posted to the GA forum later tonight):

Claim #1: GA nations are not able to prosecute stateless individuals because that's not how it works in RL.
I'm fond of saying in the GA that NS =/= RL. Yes, that is how things work in RL, but that does not necessarily mean that is how things work in NS/the GA. Sure, certain nations are welcome to model their legal systems after RL legal systems, but I'd still argue that they'd be violating the various terms set forth by the GA resolutions I cite in this repeal text.

Fairness in Criminal Trials:
MANDATES that all persons charged with criminal offences in the jurisdictions of member nations shall be brought to trial with such reasonable speed as is consistent with both prosecution and defence properly assembling available relevant evidence;
The "all persons" within the text seems to be fairly clear and does not distinguish between stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality.

I suppose it's possible that nations could decide to not prosecute someone who they apprehend within their borders if they are stateless. And could, instead, just set them free. However, if you suspect an individual of breaking a law within your nation - be it something as simple as shoplifting or as serious as mass murder - do you suddenly go, "Oh, never mind! You're a stateless individual. We can't charge you." ? *raises an eyebrow* Color me skeptical. (The full text of this resolution can be found here.)

Treatment of Inmates:
1. DEFINES:
a. "detainee" as a person who is in custody while subjected to questioning, criminal proceedings and/or trial, but for whom either (a) a verdict has not yet been determined at a trial, or (b) whose guilt is determined but is awaiting a punishment to be pronounced.
b. "convict" as a person who is serving a custodial sentence after guilt has been pronounced.
This resolution then goes on to detail how nations must treat these detainees and convicts (you can read the full text here). Again, these definitions make no reference to "citizen" or "legal resident" or anything. This follows naturally from FiCT (referenced above), under which any "person" may be charged, and ensures that no stateless "persons" who are charged will suddenly be treated unfairly during their time as a detainee or convict.

Preventing Multiple Trials has limited references to "who" is all affected by this resolution (i.e. who a "defendant" is), but there are these 2 clauses:
Preventing Multiple Trials:
DEPLORING the practice of trying individuals repeatedly for a single offense without valid justification,

...

SEEKING to create a balance between preventing unjustified multiple trials of individuals while allowing nations to ensure justice through fair retrial,
Again, "individuals" is fairly non-specific and would obviously include both stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality. So, once more the precedent established in FiCT carries through.

Habeas Corpus:
MANDATES that any individual detained by the state, or a state actor, shall have the right to appeal the legality of that detention before an impartial judicial body, or its equivalent, by oneself or through proxy;

....

REQUIRES that nations employ the usage of time limits on detention so as to avoid the unnecessary breach of an individual's liberty and right to freedom.
Again an individual's rights of Habeas Corpus are assured with this resolution - whether they are a stateless individual or have a declared nationality. This would prevent many of the things that we see within the RL (the US's Guantanamo detainment, for example) - and only goes to show that, again, RL =/= NS. The full text of this resolution can be viewed here.

Convict Appellate Rights:
DEFINES "convict" as a person who has been declared criminally responsible for one or more illegal acts,
Again, the rights of "convicts" are maintained as being defined in such a way that the term applies to both stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality. The full text of this resolution can be viewed here.

Claim #2 - Extradition related stuff.

If you are working with other nations as part of a "multilateral effort" ... do you really think you're not going to work out extradition treaties with regards to the target before you move ahead with things? If you can't agree with regards to extraditing (or what nation has jurisdictional precedence) ... how on earth can you expect to work together to collaboratively detain an individual?

Claim #3 - It's not unfair! It's better!

The comparison to "handicapped ramps" is ridiculous on it's face. Making it easier for handicapped individuals to enter a public building is somehow the same as requiring individuals of different nationalities (or lack thereof) to use different judicial protocols?

The "separate but equal" concept largely originated in the US - so far as I'm aware - during Segregation. This resolution places a BRIGHT, SHINY DIVIDING LINE between "individuals with a declared nationality" and "stateless individuals." Stateless individuals may be of any race, true. However, this seems like a prime example of Segregation to me. Being offended by the use of the concept doesn't make the comparison any less apt.

Further questions, of course are welcome.

EDIT: One more thing I thought I included but that I apparently forgot, as I was doing a reread ...

Claim #4 - This is needed to help with jurisdictional stuff when it comes to stateless individuals.

Bull. A jurisdictional clarification resolution wouldn't only affect "stateless detainees captured by a multilateral effort" but would instead affect all stateless detainees regardless of how they were captured. I'd likely support a "clarifying resolution" on such a topic, but this goes waaaaay beyond that.
 
Claim #1: GA nations are not able to prosecute stateless individuals because that's not how it works in RL.
I'm fond of saying in the GA that NS =/= RL. Yes, that is how things work in RL, but that does not necessarily mean that is how things work in NS/the GA. Sure, certain nations are welcome to model their legal systems after RL legal systems, but I'd still argue that they'd be violating the various terms set forth by the GA resolutions I cite in this repeal text.

Fairness in Criminal Trials:
MANDATES that all persons charged with criminal offences in the jurisdictions of member nations shall be brought to trial with such reasonable speed as is consistent with both prosecution and defence properly assembling available relevant evidence;
The "all persons" within the text seems to be fairly clear and does not distinguish between stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality.

I suppose it's possible that nations could decide to not prosecute someone who they apprehend within their borders if they are stateless. And could, instead, just set them free. However, if you suspect an individual of breaking a law within your nation - be it something as simple as shoplifting or as serious as mass murder - do you suddenly go, "Oh, never mind! You're a stateless individual. We can't charge you." ? *raises an eyebrow* Color me skeptical. (The full text of this resolution can be found here.)

Treatment of Inmates:
1. DEFINES:
a. "detainee" as a person who is in custody while subjected to questioning, criminal proceedings and/or trial, but for whom either (a) a verdict has not yet been determined at a trial, or (b) whose guilt is determined but is awaiting a punishment to be pronounced.
b. "convict" as a person who is serving a custodial sentence after guilt has been pronounced.
This resolution then goes on to detail how nations must treat these detainees and convicts (you can read the full text here). Again, these definitions make no reference to "citizen" or "legal resident" or anything. This follows naturally from FiCT (referenced above), under which any "person" may be charged, and ensures that no stateless "persons" who are charged will suddenly be treated unfairly during their time as a detainee or convict.

Preventing Multiple Trials has limited references to "who" is all affected by this resolution (i.e. who a "defendant" is), but there are these 2 clauses:
Preventing Multiple Trials:
DEPLORING the practice of trying individuals repeatedly for a single offense without valid justification,

...

SEEKING to create a balance between preventing unjustified multiple trials of individuals while allowing nations to ensure justice through fair retrial,
Again, "individuals" is fairly non-specific and would obviously include both stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality. So, once more the precedent established in FiCT carries through.

Habeas Corpus:
MANDATES that any individual detained by the state, or a state actor, shall have the right to appeal the legality of that detention before an impartial judicial body, or its equivalent, by oneself or through proxy;

....

REQUIRES that nations employ the usage of time limits on detention so as to avoid the unnecessary breach of an individual's liberty and right to freedom.
Again an individual's rights of Habeas Corpus are assured with this resolution - whether they are a stateless individual or have a declared nationality. This would prevent many of the things that we see within the RL (the US's Guantanamo detainment, for example) - and only goes to show that, again, RL =/= NS. The full text of this resolution can be viewed here.

Convict Appellate Rights:
DEFINES "convict" as a person who has been declared criminally responsible for one or more illegal acts,
Again, the rights of "convicts" are maintained as being defined in such a way that the term applies to both stateless individuals and those with a declared nationality. The full text of this resolution can be viewed here.

Not a single one of the examples you've provided extends a member nation's jurisdiction. In every situation you've provided (including some non-binding preambulatory clauses?), nothing in the text indicates, either explicitly or otherwise, that the resolution allows a member nation to extend its jurisdiction over foreign nationals or stateless individuals. For example: "MANDATES that all persons charged with criminal offences in the jurisdictions of member nations shall be brought to trial with such reasonable speed as is consistent with both prosecution and defence properly assembling available relevant evidence;" if only individuals under a nation's traditional and reasonable jurisdiction can be charged with crimes, then only those individuals will be affected by this clause, even if the term all persons is used. Let's look at another one: ""detainee" as a person who is in custody while subjected to questioning, criminal proceedings and/or trial, but for whom either (a) a verdict has not yet been determined at a trial, or (b) whose guilt is determined but is awaiting a punishment to be pronounced." A detainee is a person, yes, but what about this indicates that it can be an individual outside of a member nation's jurisdiction or that such a member nation's jurisdiction is extended to include all individuals? If only those under a member nation's traditional custody can be subject to its criminal proceedings, then simply using the term "a person" doesn't necessarily extend the jurisdiction over foreign nationals and stateless individuals. It looks like you literally went through the resolution list, used control F, and just posted every resolution with the phrase "all persons," because none of these actually support your argument, and I'm even more baffled that almost half are preambulatory clauses. :unsure:

Claim #2 - Extradition related stuff.

If you are working with other nations as part of a "multilateral effort" ... do you really think you're not going to work out extradition treaties with regards to the target before you move ahead with things? If you can't agree with regards to extraditing (or what nation has jurisdictional precedence) ... how on earth can you expect to work together to collaboratively detain an individual?

Member nations are already required by GAR#147 to have extradition treaties in effect prior to extraditing any individual. Although I don't think anyone said creating an extradition treaty specifically regarding one individual was either practical or necessary. Although even then, I don't see why failure to agree on who has the proper jurisdiction over an individual would preclude member nations from working together to detain individual's under no one's jurisdiction.

Claim #3 - It's not unfair! It's better!

The comparison to "handicapped ramps" is ridiculous on it's face. Making it easier for handicapped individuals to enter a public building is somehow the same as requiring individuals of different nationalities (or lack thereof) to use different judicial protocols?

I think you may have missed my point. My point was that the only reason the process is separate is because there's no other way for it to be done effectively. Multilateral prosecution of stateless individuals is the only sensible way to go about the issue. Just like it's not unfair that individuals without legs can't use the stairs like everyone else. Furthermore, the "judicial protocols" are the same, except the duty of prosecuting stateless individuals is given to a quasi-judicial body with the proper jurisdiction. This whole argument is nothing but fearmongering.

The "separate but equal" concept largely originated in the US - so far as I'm aware - during Segregation. This resolution places a BRIGHT, SHINY DIVIDING LINE between "individuals with a declared nationality" and "stateless individuals." Stateless individuals may be of any race, true. However, this seems like a prime example of Segregation to me. Being offended by the use of the concept doesn't make the comparison any less apt.

Oh my goodness, I literally cannot tell if you're being serious. You're comparing prosecuting stateless individuals in a quasi-judicial committee with the proper jurisdiction, under which they're guaranteed the same treatment, liberties, and rights as every other individuals under any other court in the World Assembly, to racial segregation in the United States, where "separate but equal" entailed bigotry, unfair treatment, racism, and segregation? Either this is a very offensive political tactic or you honestly think charging stateless individuals in an international court is the same thing as systematic segregation based on race. Clearly, dividing bathrooms up based on gender is also an unfair example of the draconian "separate but equal" principle?

Claim #4 - This is needed to help with jurisdictional stuff when it comes to stateless individuals.

Bull. A jurisdictional clarification resolution wouldn't only affect "stateless detainees captured by a multilateral effort" but would instead affect all stateless detainees regardless of how they were captured. I'd likely support a "clarifying resolution" on such a topic, but this goes waaaaay beyond that.

I don't understand. Under the resolution, only stateless detainees captured by multilateral efforts would need to be transported to the ICMP. Could you perhaps clarify your point here? Could you cite the text that you're getting this from?
 
Thanks to both Mousebumples and Sciongrad for providing arguments on the matter.

I must admit that, at this stage, I am convinced by Sciongrad's arguments. Also, I worry that Mousebumples has used some equivocation to support their case; at least that is how it appears to me.

I vote AGAINST the repeal.
 
I had cast an original vote For based on the single vote For (mine) in this thread at the time. Vote count is now 1-2-0 Against, so I changed my vote.
 
Not a single one of the examples you've provided extends a member nation's jurisdiction. In every situation you've provided (including some non-binding preambulatory clauses?), nothing in the text indicates, either explicitly or otherwise, that the resolution allows a member nation to extend its jurisdiction over foreign nationals or stateless individuals.
Where is a member nation's jurisdiction limited within WA law? Did I fall asleep that day at WA resolution school? You keep insisting that "because things are this way in RL, they MUST be the same way in NS" ... because ... magic? Some things follow naturally, yes. However, with the exception of the Diplomatic Immunity Act (which doesn't apply here, anyhow, since diplomats are obviously not stateless), I can't think of any resolution that specifically either limits or expands a nation's ability to prosecute, detain, imprision, etc., any individuals.

So far as the "non-binding preambulatory clauses" portion goes - I tried to refrain from quoting EVERYTHING at everyone ... especially since the intent was to show who was covered in the resolutions that I cited. Since I expect anything less than complete capitulation by me (hint: not gonna happen) is going to be met with the same mule-headed response, I suppose I should have just quoted everything.

It looks like you literally went through the resolution list, used control F, and just posted every resolution with the phrase "all persons," because none of these actually support your argument, and I'm even more baffled that almost half are preambulatory clauses. :unsure:
The resolutions I cited are the same ones that I cite within the text of the repeal itself. So ... thanks for make believing that you've read the repeal text that you're arguing so strongly against? :unsure:

The "individuals" covered in these resolutions is what I focused on. I can't give proof that something "doesn't exist" (unless, again, you want me to include the text of every single resolution in here), so I don't really know what I was supposed to "magically find." There is not anything in WA law to support the RL=NS jurisdictional claims that you're making.

I think you may have missed my point. My point was that the only reason the process is separate is because there's no other way for it to be done effectively. Multilateral prosecution of stateless individuals is the only sensible way to go about the issue. Just like it's not unfair that individuals without legs can't use the stairs like everyone else. Furthermore, the "judicial protocols" are the same, except the duty of prosecuting stateless individuals is given to a quasi-judicial body with the proper jurisdiction. This whole argument is nothing but fearmongering.
Who says that there's "no other way for it to be done effectively" ? That is your opinion, which you are welcome to hold - however, that doesn't make it fact/law/the only way to do anything.

You say that the "judicial protocols" are the same, but why is an individual nation's own judicial system "not good enough" ? Similar to the ICC, I believe that individuals that commit crimes within my own nation should be tried within my own nation - whether they are Mousebumplonian citizens or not.

Oh my goodness, I literally cannot tell if you're being serious. You're comparing prosecuting stateless individuals in a quasi-judicial committee with the proper jurisdiction, under which they're guaranteed the same treatment, liberties, and rights as every other individuals under any other court in the World Assembly, to racial segregation in the United States, where "separate but equal" entailed bigotry, unfair treatment, racism, and segregation? Either this is a very offensive political tactic or you honestly think charging stateless individuals in an international court is the same thing as systematic segregation based on race. Clearly, dividing bathrooms up based on gender is also an unfair example of the draconian "separate but equal" principle?
As above, I think that crimes committed within my own nation should be tried within the courts of my own nation. And, yes, bathrooms are the same as courts. :eyeroll: Thanks again for making another extreme example that doesn't really support your argument here except to go, "Nuh uh!"

This "quasi-judicial committee" follows the same protocols as laid out by WA law. It cannot possibly follow the exact same protocols followed within every WA nation, as there are undoubtedly some variables that are not enshrined within WA law. The WA laws I cited do establish a "bare minimum," but to say that an individual going through the Mousebumplonian court system and the ICMP are going to be "exactly the same" is pushing it. Of course, this magical RL=NS concept that you're clinging to, might have something to do with that ...

I don't understand. Under the resolution, only stateless detainees captured by multilateral efforts would need to be transported to the ICMP. Could you perhaps clarify your point here? Could you cite the text that you're getting this from?
I cited the text I'm getting this from, but since you're confused, I'll try to explain again.

This resolution ONLY covered stateless detainees captured by a "multilateral effort." If we buy your argument (which I don't, obviously), there is no way to try stateless detainees that are captured by a single nation. Because ... jurisdiction or something. They're not covered under ICMP, and - according you to - I can't try them on my own because I don't have the jurisdiction to do so.

No matter which side you're on, I'd consider that to be a fault of the proposal, as well - unless that was an intended loophole by the author of the resolution, so as to ensure that certain stateless detainees are never prosecuted?
 
Where is a member nation's jurisdiction limited within WA law? Did I fall asleep that day at WA resolution school? You keep insisting that "because things are this way in RL, they MUST be the same way in NS" ... because ... magic? Some things follow naturally, yes. However, with the exception of the Diplomatic Immunity Act (which doesn't apply here, anyhow, since diplomats are obviously not stateless), I can't think of any resolution that specifically either limits or expands a nation's ability to prosecute, detain, imprision, etc., any individuals.

Jurisdiction doesn't work like that, and someone repealing a resolution that partially covers jurisdiction should know that. Jurisdiction is an inherent characteristic of state sovereignty and its limited by reason and logic (also statute and such, but that's not relevant). If a Mousebumples citizen in Mousebumples commits an act that's illegal in Sciongrad, than I have no jurisdiction over them. Of course, by your logic, because basic legal principles don't have to make sense in the NS, then I can claim to have jurisdiction over your citizens, seek to have them extradited, and then cause a consequent diplomatic crisis. You keep saying NS doesn't equal RL, but you can't use that to claim that basic characteristics of nations don't exist. Imagine if I claimed that Sciongrad could pass laws that affected citizens of other countries. Would "NS=/=RL" apply there? Of course it wouldn't. Just because it happens in RL doesn't mean that it doesn't have to happen in NS. Jurisdiction doesn't have to be limited specifically because jurisdiction just is. Just like state sovereignty just is.

The resolutions I cited are the same ones that I cite within the text of the repeal itself. So ... thanks for make believing that you've read the repeal text that you're arguing so strongly against? :unsure:

I was referring to those resolutions. Perhaps I was unclear, but I meant that it looked like you chose those resolutions as evidence in the first place for no other reason than that they included the term "all persons."

The "individuals" covered in these resolutions is what I focused on. I can't give proof that something "doesn't exist" (unless, again, you want me to include the text of every single resolution in here), so I don't really know what I was supposed to "magically find." There is not anything in WA law to support the RL=NS jurisdictional claims that you're making.

You don't need a resolution to tell you how jurisdiction works... Jurisdiction is a characteristic of a polity. You keep throwing "NS=/=RL" around but that's not a reasonable argument supporting the idea that a nation can legally arrest and punish anyone it wants, regardless of whether or not they're citizens or even within that nation's territory. You have not established that a nation can unilaterally claim jurisdiction over anything more than its own citizens, so therefore, the "all persons" references you cited do not support your claim for reasons I've already established.

Who says that there's "no other way for it to be done effectively" ? That is your opinion, which you are welcome to hold - however, that doesn't make it fact/law/the only way to do anything.

How else do you capture stateless individuals that have committed crimes in more than one jurisdiction than through a multilateral effort...? If a stateless individual commits a crime in Sciongrad and Mousebumples, who arrests them? Why not simplify the whole process by creating a clear procedure for prosecuting stateless individuals through multilateral efforts?
You say that the "judicial protocols" are the same, but why is an individual nation's own judicial system "not good enough" ? Similar to the ICC, I believe that individuals that commit crimes within my own nation should be tried within my own nation - whether they are Mousebumplonian citizens or not.

That doesn't address my point. My point was that the judicial protocol is essentially identical. Regarding your point: you say you can arrest and try stateless individuals in your nation, but how would you go about this when such an individual has committed crimes in multiple states? Which, as I'm sure you know, is the purpose of the resolution in question.

As above, I think that crimes committed within my own nation should be tried within the courts of my own nation. And, yes, bathrooms are the same as courts. :eyeroll: Thanks again for making another extreme example that doesn't really support your argument here except to go, "Nuh uh!"

My argument is that you used a term that applies exclusively to American segregation based on race (you even used quotation marks) to describe a process that's not even close. My point is that your use of the term "separate but equal" is in bad taste and very misleading.

This "quasi-judicial committee" follows the same protocols as laid out by WA law. It cannot possibly follow the exact same protocols followed within every WA nation, as there are undoubtedly some variables that are not enshrined within WA law. The WA laws I cited do establish a "bare minimum," but to say that an individual going through the Mousebumplonian court system and the ICMP are going to be "exactly the same" is pushing it. Of course, this magical RL=NS concept that you're clinging to, might have something to do with that ...

Following the exact judicial protocol of every nation is not practical, but it's not necessary. If you don't mind me asking, what judicial rights and liberties do you feel those tried under the ICMP currently lack?

Furthermore, I have absolutely no idea what your last sentence means, but I can only assume it was some poor attempt at discrediting my argument because not only haven't I said "NS=RL" anywhere, ever, but that concept is not really relevant to this particular argument.
I cited the text I'm getting this from, but since you're confused, I'll try to explain again.

This resolution ONLY covered stateless detainees captured by a "multilateral effort." If we buy your argument (which I don't, obviously), there is no way to try stateless detainees that are captured by a single nation. Because ... jurisdiction or something. They're not covered under ICMP, and - according you to - I can't try them on my own because I don't have the jurisdiction to do so.

No matter which side you're on, I'd consider that to be a fault of the proposal, as well - unless that was an intended loophole by the author of the resolution, so as to ensure that certain stateless detainees are never prosecuted?

This is a downright misreading of the original resolution. Let me quote every reference to stateless individuals in the target resolution:

Requires that all stateless detainees captured by a multilateral effort under the provisions of WA legislation must be transported safely to the International Courthouse for Multilateral Prosecution (ICMP);
Affirms the duty of the ICMP to try accused stateless detainees captured by a multilateral effort, for crimes established by World Assembly resolutions;

I know it's shocking that the multilateral prosecution act only affects those stateless individuals captured through a multilateral effort, but it's true. Furthermore, there is no reason as to why another resolution clarifying the issue of stateless individuals and the jurisdiction surrounding them can not be passed right now. This resolution is on multilateral prosecution, not on the rights of stateless individuals.

Also, no, you didn't cite the text. And curiously enough, you didn't do it the second time either.
 
If there is not a replacement resolution that is going to be drafted I am changing my vote to against. Sciongrad convinced me
 
Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.
 
Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.
 
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