TNP vs H&H
- Thread starter Democratic Donkeys
- Start date
falapatorius
TNPer
Haha.. good one. But as soon as we disregard the the law for one, we disregard the law for all. TNP law I mean. That takes precedence here. Btw, keeping your enemies close..blah blah.Venico:Yes and the way to be smarter is to let people trying to coup you stay in your region.
- TNP Nation
- McMasterdonia
Sorry, I thought you didn't know who he was or his history.falapatorius:Durk may have couped TNP, and got away with it, but what are we supposed to do? Convict retroactively? I'd say be smarter next time.mcmasterdonia:Durk has already couped this region twice and he was never convicted despite banning thousands of nationsfalapatorius:Haha, I'm guessing Durk is on your list. Tbh tho, until he acts up here, no one can do anything. Unless the name Durk itself is bannable. Don't think so. Your concerns may be valid, but I hope you can see we can't just take anyone's word for it.Venico:
Venico
TNPer
I understand that the law takes precedence what I'm saying is the law is WRONG. It is fundamentally flawed.falapatorius:Haha.. good one. But as soon as we disregard the the law for one, we disregard the law for all. TNP law I mean. That takes precedence here. Btw, keeping your enemies close..blah blah.Venico:Yes and the way to be smarter is to let people trying to coup you stay in your region.
VeniEdit: Letting coupers and people wishing to coup your region stay AND avoid any ramifications is not a good thing.
falapatorius
TNPer
I know that he is not exactly welcome in TNP. But I wouldn't deny him any freedoms that any TNPer enjoys. Within the confines (and any interpretations thereof) of the law of course.mcmasterdonia:
Venico
TNPer
Fal answer me this, as an intelligence person and someone who actively seeks out information, why should I give any information I get to TNP regarding its security? All it has gotten me is made me less trustworthy as a source and cost me part of my reputation. Why should I hand over any intel next time instead of assisting?
falapatorius
TNPer
Intel is good. Don't be upset that your 'contribution' didn't have a tangible result. My opinion is that you should have some documentary evidence in reserve, as well as your word. I don't think your rep has taken a significant hit. You just provided evidence.. the lawyers 'used' it.Venico:
Venico
TNPer
Why would any other potential couper tell me anything now? Why would people trust me to not break my word? Bullshit my reputation didn't take a hit. You still haven't given me a reason to provide this intel to you if all it does is hurt me and NOT help TNP in any regard.falapatorius:
Whatever, if I want to coup TNP I know how to do it now. As does everyone else.
falapatorius
TNPer
So what are you saying? We're George Bush and you're Valerie Plame? We outed you? I'm sorry your cover as Venico is blown. A good operative would make adjustments in the field. Maybe blowing your cover for a minor leaguer like H&H was a bad idea? Probably. Dude.. don't go rogue because of the pissants..jeez.Venico:
Venico
TNPer
Your stupidity really irks me. The more ridiculous you make it to deal with threats to the region, the less you take action against nations wanting to coup, ultimately you weaken TNP. You give people who have information no reason to bring it to you since you'll do nothing with it.
And as far as your snide remarks, I was contacted as Venico to aid, just by telling TNP and providing the logs left no other option but me.
And as far as your snide remarks, I was contacted as Venico to aid, just by telling TNP and providing the logs left no other option but me.
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
All convictions are retroactive.falapatorius:Durk may have couped TNP, and got away with it, but what are we supposed to do? Convict retroactively? I'd say be smarter next time.mcmasterdonia:Durk has already couped this region twice and he was never convicted despite banning thousands of nationsfalapatorius:Haha, I'm guessing Durk is on your list. Tbh tho, until he acts up here, no one can do anything. Unless the name Durk itself is bannable. Don't think so. Your concerns may be valid, but I hope you can see we can't just take anyone's word for it.Venico:
falapatorius
TNPer
Ok fine.. I'm stupid, and you're the boy/girl who cried wolf. You can eat sour grapes since your intel was bogus (or at least less than conclusive). TNP has due process.. like it or not.Venico:
Venico
TNPer
Plenty of GCRs have due process while still having teeth to deal with security issues. If you read the logs they're more than conclusive. The person identifies themselves and expresses a wish to coup TNP. Luckily for him, he's in a region that cannot convict people of treason because the bar is so high.
falapatorius
TNPer
GM:
Explain.
falapatorius
TNPer
Well alright. Venico thinks we should convict Durk for whatever reason. Why should we even hear his testimony? He isn't a TNPer, and has shown a blatant disregard for our laws. But wait, he's taken the high ground and stated that we should know better. While that may be compelling, we do have a conscience (more or less). Subsequently, Durk (and any variations thereof) shall be banned from TNP ad infinitum.
Venico
TNPer
Did I say that? No, I'd love to see Durk hang around and flaunt that TNP's justice system is a joke. (As a note I was a TNPer before you were even registered on this forum =P) I'm also not saying I know better.
What I AM saying is that TNP is not making itself welcome to intelligence, is actively welcoming wannabe coupers back into the region, and has a ridiculously high bar for any charge related to treason. I'm also saying that this weakens TNP's executive branch and its in game delegacy.
You don't have to listen to me, you can call me a nut and push me in the corner where I belong. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how this ruling affects TNP at large and its foreign relations.
What I AM saying is that TNP is not making itself welcome to intelligence, is actively welcoming wannabe coupers back into the region, and has a ridiculously high bar for any charge related to treason. I'm also saying that this weakens TNP's executive branch and its in game delegacy.
You don't have to listen to me, you can call me a nut and push me in the corner where I belong. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how this ruling affects TNP at large and its foreign relations.
falapatorius
TNPer
Seriously, calling TNP's justice system a joke? I can't speak for TNP, but frig off. I don't care how long you've played NS. All that means is that it took you this long to finally get a clue. Question, or downplay, my loyalty all you want, but I know yours is elsewhere.Venico:
Venico
TNPer
Yes, TNP's justice system IS a joke. It found a person who couped the region (twice) and banjected thousands of nations...not convictable. I never questioned or downplayed your loyalty, but no matter how loyal you are doesn't mean that your region is infallible. It actually has a reputation for not being able to convict people of treason no matter how obvious the evidence.
And my loyalty lies with the region I represent here, the Brotherhood of Malice. I never claimed otherwise. I'm very regionalist and believe that it is a disservice to hold citizenship in more than one region at once unless you can actively contribute to them all.
And my loyalty lies with the region I represent here, the Brotherhood of Malice. I never claimed otherwise. I'm very regionalist and believe that it is a disservice to hold citizenship in more than one region at once unless you can actively contribute to them all.
falapatorius
TNPer
Well fine. Our laws are too forgiving. We can agree that the BoM knows how to deal with Durk the Awesome better than TNP. Let us know if your approach works. We'll continue shooting ourselves in the foot. Thank you.Venico:
If the litmus test for being booted from TNP is "have you couped TNP?" a few people other than Durk would not be here. TNP is much more forgiving than the GCR's Venico mentioned and, in my opinion, all for the better.
I would agree that TNP does have a "ridiculously high" standard for conviction. One of the things I dislike about that is that this is a game and such high standards make it easier for defense people. All they need to do is poke holes into prosecutions who are not RL lawyers. Hopefully you will report coup attempts in the future. While this guy was not convicted, he was booted in a timely manner.
I would agree that TNP does have a "ridiculously high" standard for conviction. One of the things I dislike about that is that this is a game and such high standards make it easier for defense people. All they need to do is poke holes into prosecutions who are not RL lawyers. Hopefully you will report coup attempts in the future. While this guy was not convicted, he was booted in a timely manner.
So.. how do you explain letting Douria back into Osiris? I mean, he did coup the place, right?Venico:
Democratic Donkeys
TNPer
Now don't go ruining my thread with flaming!
As for the Justice system being a joke or not, did some of the people responding in this thread even read the OP? Half of it is a joke, tired albeit, about the Justice system.
As for the Justice system being a joke or not, did some of the people responding in this thread even read the OP? Half of it is a joke, tired albeit, about the Justice system.
- TNP Nation
- McMasterdonia
I believe he is being admitted to their equivalent of the Security Council. I've also heard "Douria won't coup Osi" being muttered.SillyString:So.. how do you explain letting Douria back into Osiris? I mean, he did coup the place, right?Venico:
Treize_Dreizehn
TNPer
I'm looking over this case and trying to figure out what I could've done differently to prosecute it better. I'm coming up with nothing. The standard of evidence is so high that it may as well be insurmountable. I'd need the guy to go on record(which no one can compel him to do) and say with witnesses present who he is and what he did. Even that would not be enough!
A good attorney would just say "That was someone else pretending to be him". Even if I did some sneaky, illegal and hinky shit to link it irrevocably to the guy's real name... he could just say it was someone else on his computer.
What is the point of having laws at all when "reasonable doubt" isn't the standard you use to prove a crime or identity? The justices appear(and I can't say anything for certain because they didn't really explain their ruling in any detail), to have a completely wrongheaded view of how justice is supposed to work. If they don't have complete and total certainty of guilt and identity, they won't convict.
This is the internet. Good luck with that.
Edit: Though I will still try to prosecute cases as well as I can.
A good attorney would just say "That was someone else pretending to be him". Even if I did some sneaky, illegal and hinky shit to link it irrevocably to the guy's real name... he could just say it was someone else on his computer.
What is the point of having laws at all when "reasonable doubt" isn't the standard you use to prove a crime or identity? The justices appear(and I can't say anything for certain because they didn't really explain their ruling in any detail), to have a completely wrongheaded view of how justice is supposed to work. If they don't have complete and total certainty of guilt and identity, they won't convict.
This is the internet. Good luck with that.
Edit: Though I will still try to prosecute cases as well as I can.
- Discord
- COE#7110
An IP address match, a telegram from the main nation, or testimony from someone who could link the skype account to the nation would probably constitute "reasonably certain" evidence, I imagine.
Treize_Dreizehn
TNPer
I just wish the courts had explained exactly what they wanted. For all I know there is no level of evidence that wouldn't allow doubt to be cast on it. To note I did ask the defendant to provide that information, without any coercion. He never replied.Crushing Our Enemies:
- Discord
- COE#7110
A one-sentence verdict does seem a bit sparse. People complained when I wrote a paragraph
People always complain about the courts. TD, you hit the nail on the head with:
This is where our court system is failing, imo. Some will say, "look at the court rules", and to that I'd say a lot of what we deal with is nuanced and in the courtroom is seems that justices have favored defense counsel. In many cases during actual trials issues come up that the court must review that have a direct effect on a trial. I do not believe that happened in this case, but a system where that does happen is not mature enough to provide clarity for both parties to really fight for their clients.
But since we are - for all practical purposes if not in word - an innocent before guilty society that culture favors defendants. I thought both attorneys in this case did a fine job. I believe our system failed us.
This is where our court system is failing, imo. Some will say, "look at the court rules", and to that I'd say a lot of what we deal with is nuanced and in the courtroom is seems that justices have favored defense counsel. In many cases during actual trials issues come up that the court must review that have a direct effect on a trial. I do not believe that happened in this case, but a system where that does happen is not mature enough to provide clarity for both parties to really fight for their clients.
But since we are - for all practical purposes if not in word - an innocent before guilty society that culture favors defendants. I thought both attorneys in this case did a fine job. I believe our system failed us.
Chasmanthe
TNPer
Treize did a good job, and I'd like to thank him for all the work that he put into this case. Naturally, I'm disappointed by the court's decision, and a little bewildered that there was enough doubt to prevent a conviction here.
Venico, I can only offer you an unreserved apology for your trouble. You worked against a fellow raider in the pusuit of what seemed a higher ideal: justice, and the security of our great region; our system has not honoured your service in its verdict.
Helpful players like Venico don't come along every day, and I fear that next time there is a plot to overthrow the liberal democracy that we have grown accustomed to, raiders of foreign lands will be far less inclined to co-operate with our government and the prosecution.
If there is a next time, I hope we will have learnt what we missed this turn.
Thank you all for your time.
Venico, I can only offer you an unreserved apology for your trouble. You worked against a fellow raider in the pusuit of what seemed a higher ideal: justice, and the security of our great region; our system has not honoured your service in its verdict.
Helpful players like Venico don't come along every day, and I fear that next time there is a plot to overthrow the liberal democracy that we have grown accustomed to, raiders of foreign lands will be far less inclined to co-operate with our government and the prosecution.
If there is a next time, I hope we will have learnt what we missed this turn.
Thank you all for your time.