Civil Jurisdiction Repeal Bill

r3naissanc3r

TNPer
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Civil Jurisdiction Repeal Bill

1. Article 5, Clause 1 of the Constitution of The North Pacific is hereby amended to read as follows,

1. The Court will try all criminal cases, resolve conflicts or ambiguities in the law, and review the constitutionality of laws or legality of government policies by request of an affected party.
 
I use BBcode below to highlight the changes effected by this bill, specifically in Article 5, Section 1 of the Constitution:
1. The Court will try all criminal and civil cases, resolve conflicts or ambiguities in the law, and review the constitutionality of laws or legality of government policies by request of an affected party.


I had in the past proposed a similar bill, though at the time I was unable to keep up with the debate because of RL workload. When I did return to regular activity, the debate had progressed and the RA was discussing the Civil Omnibus Bill. I decided to wait for the outcome of that bill before I reintroduced this one.

The effect of this bill is simple. It removes the civil jurisdiction of the court. There will no longer be civil cases.

As far as I am aware, four arguments have been offered supporting the utility of civil cases. The first argument is that that civil cases offer the possibility of a plaintiff winning a case while satisfying a lower standard of proof than what would be required in a criminal case. While I am not completely convinced this is even true, I also question that this is desirable. If it is possible for a member to be handed the same punishment for the same action through two different judicial avenues, then a fair Court should require that the same standard should be satisfied in both cases.

The second argument is partially related to the previous one. It says that there are "lesser" offenses that either warrant smaller sentences, or ought to be provable before Court easier than other, more serious offenses. I don't see why this cannot be achieved through the criminal jurisdiction. All it takes is an appropriate (re)definition of these offences in the Criminal Code, as well as clauses providing for these smaller sentences.

The third argument is that there are offenses where a trial is better dealt as an arbirtration between the plaintiff and the defendant, than as a prosecution by the State against the defendant). One example would be cases of Fraud that amount to essentially defamation. With the recent passage of the Attorney General Amendment Act, this should no longer be an issue. When such a case is brought, the Attorney General is now able to decline to prosecute it, and instead defer prosecution to the complainant. Therefore, we have a mechanism essentially equivalent to that of a civil trial, without the need for an whole extra jurisdictional layer.

The fourth argument is that having a civil jurisdiction offers flexibility, by allowing people to file complaints for actions that are not otherwise defined as offenses in the Legal Code. This may be true, but I do not accept that this is an advantage. It is a loophole that ought to be fixed. Culpable actions ought to be well-defined in legislation, so that a member can inform themselves through a simple reading of the statute, and not be afraid of having to face a civil suit whenever someone becomes creative. If members think there are actions beyond those defined in the Criminal Code that ought to be culpable, then they should propose an amendment to have those actions added there.

I do not believe there is anything a civil jurisdiction offers that cannot already be achieved through the criminal jurisdiction. There are indeed cases which the court lacks the proper means to address, such as certain kinds of disputes between members. But civil trials are not the solution to those cases, and this has been repeatedly demonstrated whenever in the past the Court was asked to hear a civil trial.

For all these reasons, I believe that the civil jurisdiction is extraneous and redundant. Now that the RA has rejected the Civil Omnibus Bill, I propose that we finally repeal the civil jurisdiction entirely.
 
r3naissanc3r:
Now that the RA has rejected the Civil Omnibus Bill, I propose that we finally repeal the civil jurisdiction entirely.
:agree: The concept of 'actual damages' (and the proving thereof) was problematic for me.
 
I'm extremely ambivalent about this. I think I'm going to abstain like all good Speakers and Deputy Speakers (read: Zyvet) do.
 
I am generally FOR this proposal, not that I am against a Civil Court Jurisdiction as I think Civil cases could make for good Role Play or for real relief of aggrieved party.

But I feel a Civil Jurisdiction should be clearly defined, as our current Court Justice system and AGs office I feel should be concerned with just Criminal trials, issues of election law, and Civil Rights Constibillicode violations.

So I am not in favor of scrapping the idea of Civil codes alltogether, instead of doing any kind of hasty repeal and replace measures either, lets repeal any current references to civil codes and trials currently in the codes of law then rewrite it from the ground up as it's own seperate section and jursidiction.

Maybe not its own "civil court" persay, but Arbitration perhaps? Have a person like the AG/Chief Justice call them "Chief Executive Arbiter" or something. And have a 3 panel board of associate arbiters to actually hear and render arbitration decisions. The chief is mostly administration taking complaints and assigning them. There could even be Citizen advocates that are assigned to a person demanding relief or being accused to help them legal wrangle and fight for them thru the arbitration process and in the hearing.

And specify in the civil code specific civil offences such as I.E. Libel/Slander and we obviously could have more, and specifiy exact damages, and instead of proving beyond a reasonable doubt, we be like most modern civil jurisdictions and have proponderance of evidence (who brings most evidence/witnesses with them to the hearing)

I don't know just a suggestion, people will do what they want.
 
I'd actually prefer to have civil trials but if we as an Assembly can't pass a bill to define how that's going to work, I'd rather have no civil trials than trials where we just guess at how the law is supposed to be applied.
 
I agree, Ator. But then I don't know what I am talking about, I've read posts by RA current members and Former RA members on various topics in the forums and general consensus is a lot of these clauses and amendments and fixes have been hastly put together and makes for a "clusterf*ck" to try to enforce and interpret. But if a newcomer who is objective, has no biases, is neutral, comes in and reads the laws and the debates on them and comes to a similar conclusion, and in good faith wants to make the language better(despite thier posting styles) and in good faith sees room for improvement that is frowed upon, so "regulars" have at it you passed these convoluted clusterfu*ck laws..you made the bed you lie in it. Ill just let everyone debate thier chosen issue and if it comes to a vote ill vote according to how it looks to me. Or whatever. I'll just vote my conscious on proposals otherwise i'll do my best to keep to myself.
 
This proposal is now in formal debate. It shall last for five days, after which a vote shall be scheduled.
 
I think eliminating the 'civil law' item from the Constitution is fairly meaningless because it accomplishes nothing objective by doing so.

In fact, I think the civil provision is good because it allows for creating a structure for resolving inter-personal disputes through remediation. As it is, our current criminal code is so small and the laws tend to be so narrow, that short of a board moderation issue, and as it is, one can get away with damned near anything one wants to do. :P
 
Roman, what you are saying is, our criminal law sucks, so let's add a free-for-all ill-defined civil jurisdiction to patch it up.

Given all the evidence from the past about how ineffective civil cases are, that's like saying "oh our car is broken, let's get another broken car while at the same time also keeping the old one around". It is a completely illogical approach towards solving the issues with the criminal code.

If you think our criminal law sucks, then fix that.
 
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