Recall Tim

Chasmanthe:

I think it's quite low how the cabinet don't feel any need to explain their support or opposition to the members of the assembly.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm singling out McM when it's merely the typical contempt for transparent democratic accountability that we see week in, week out.

Speaking as a member of TSPCLU (not as an ambassador) I am not shocked by this debate (or lack of) merely saddened.

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First of all, the recall was proposed as a joke because the RA had nothing better to do. Flem himself said he's only recalling Tim because he's the last one to enter a Government position and a last-in, first-out policy should apply. It's hard to have a serious debate when the vote itself was nothing more than a joke.

Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by contempt for transparent democratic accountability. Care to give an example? If I recall correctly last time you asked for logs, we gave them to you. And that was a number of weeks ago. We're not doing anything, to be perfectly frank, to be non-transparent about.

And why are you singling out the cabinet? Why do you not feel that the Speaker, or the Deputy Speaker, or the Justices, or members of the Security Council should explain their support or opposition to the RA? They are government officials too. People have never had to explain the way they vote before, why are you suddenly enraged that it isn't done now by, what, three/four people? Seems a bit ridiculous.

The cabinet's opinion on a cabinet minister is germane to the issue. Particularly when they come out en masse to support a recall for which no sensible motivation has ever been posited.

Let's Vote !!

Great Bights Mum:

The cabinet's opinion on a cabinet minister is germane to the issue. Particularly when they come out en masse to support a recall for which no sensible motivation has ever been posited.

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He's not a cabinet minister, he's a deputy, and we haven't had a cabinet meeting since this has been introduced so there is no uniform government response/stance/opinion.

I'm voting for the the recall because I don't particularly enjoy being a member of government with someone who I would consider to be, more or less, a troll. My opinion wasn't sought when McM originally appointed Tim so I didn't have an opportunity to express so then.

I can't tell you why the others are voting the way they are voting, but what I can tell you is that it appears cabinet ministers have been given free reign to vote how they wish on this. I certainly haven't been told to vote any certain way.

From what I have heard, I believe I should either vote "Aye" or "Abstain". It seems there have been some (few) negative remarks against Deputy Minister Tim but no positive ones. But I am also new here so I do not have that much precedence with being around to witness Tim's actions (or lack thereof).

I am not sure. I know I have a right to vote however I am not sure voting anything but "Abstain" would be conducive to an outcome that is representative of the Deputy Minister's merits & performance (or lack thereof).

Either way, I hope my vote is respected and I also hope it isnt intrusive (despite the fact that it is rumored to be a joke. Honestly, I just got here so im not going to take any vote as a joke).

I would at least like to know why the Delegate and the Minister of Foreign Affairs are voting aye, given that they are the ones who appointed Tim in the first place and given that they also have the power to remove him without this recall. That seems odd.

On the other hand, it could just be humor. Which I suppose is fine, though I personally don't find this recall vote funny at all and think it's a disrespectful use of the RA's and the Speaker's time. That said, the Delegate and the MoFA weren't the initiators of this waste of time and I find it amusing that some of those who did initiate it want to now ramble on about respect for the people and the democratic process. At least Durk is honest in his trolling.

[me]casually waves his hand at his Boss and his Boss's Boss.
You know, if you don't want me as DMoFA.. Feel free to fire me *shrugs* I was happy to join the team, to help out on the Foreign Update. If I'm not needed, then feel free to dismiss me.

Alternatively, if you're voting Aye for the funzies then you should tell me so we can funzies together <3

It wasn't too long ago that Flemingovia was in the chair I am in, and his perspective on this sort of thing was much different...from a voting thread that failed to recall Gaspo when he was Associate Justice:

flemingovia:

What a waste of my time, at I time when I really do not have time to waste.

If someone would care to draft the legislation we really need the speaker or someone to have the power not to bring assinine motions to a vote. Or perhaps folks could stop acting like dicks by seconding such motions?

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http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8082594&t=7002812

Oh, how perspective can change a man!

Tim:

Tim casually waves his hand at his Boss and his Boss's Boss.
You know, if you don't want me as DMoFA.. Feel free to fire me *shrugs* I was happy to join the team, to help out on the Foreign Update. If I'm not needed, then feel free to dismiss me.

Alternatively, if you're voting Aye for the funzies then you should tell me so we can funzies together <3

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Tim, I voted Aye just for funzies!

mcmasterdonia:

I only appointed him a week or so ago GBM. The simple fact is that I could dismiss him before this recall vote concludes, or it could conclude, and I could reappoint him.

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Oh guys, this is funny! I only voted Aye as a joke, if I didn't want Tim as my deputy I wouldn't have appointed him. I may be silly, but I am not stupid.

If a stupid and frivolous recall is going to a vote. I considered voting using a meme or a gif, but I didn't wish to face the wrath of the Speaker. I apologise for encouraging your paranoia Chasmanthe in thinking that there is a conspiracy!!! I am just glad this time that you don't think it's a UDL and LWU combined effort! You are being ridiculous.

Never before have I ignored the will of the Regional Assembly and I don't intend to do so now. I am shocked at the accusation from Flemingovia and yourself. Clearly there is a difference between stating what one could do, and what one actually will do. My point is clearly that the recall procedure regarding appointed positions is somewhat flawed.

I supported Tim in his position and I encourage some of you to use a bit more common sense. Lets not forget that Tim was my Foreign Affairs Minister for at least half of my term as Delegate. If I didn't want Tim in the position I would say. That is how I do things.

I'm aware that this vote will not be counted, which is probably in the context of this bill, but isn't it hypocritical to recall someone when they can literally be appointed again the second after they lose office? I feel like we should also be able to recall RA members just so they lose seniority and can't be picked in Pro Tempore- but that would have an actual purpose. Also, I'm impressed that COE took the time to rainbow out Kiwi's entire vote. Nice job. God save the Queen. Ben.

MODEDIT: Split from voting thread. Debate goes in the debate thread.

Iro, if that is how you feel then why the ever-loving fuck did you move for this to be voted on?

For the same reason I voted Aye in the voting thread, presumably. This reminds me of "Whose Line is it, Anyway?" where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

McM I was exaggerating for effect. I'm not paranoid, there is no rage, no scandal. LWU never had anything to do with a conspiracy - can you stop saying it like it was an accusation? It just makes things sound awkward and makes me look like an idiot.

Tim never coup'd. Tim never planned or conspired to coup TNP. Whether that's true is not my call to make, you believe what you want to believe. You certainly are in a position to know due to your position for the last year and a half.

Despite his trollish tendencies, Tim has done good things for this region and I think he deserves credit for his qualities and achievements.

I'm not talking out of spite. Flem is being assinine and the RA is trying to make a joke of itself. All I'm doing is arguing for the sake of arguing. Tim has his good points, and he knows how to conduct himself when he wants to. But if you give me a chance to vote him out I will take it any day!

You McM, appoint Tim, then vote for his recall while at the same time prepared to reappoint him if it passes. This makes you look like a court jester, not the McM we knew and loved.

You put a question to the RA don't complain when they actually try and debate it.

@Sanc I hear what you're saying but you could probably say more. Although I don't doubt that there are people who could hush you up quite easily.

Never before have I ignored the will of the Regional Assembly and I don't intend to do so now. I am shocked at the accusation from Flemingovia and yourself. Clearly there is a difference between stating what one could do, and what one actually will do. My point is clearly that the recall procedure regarding appointed positions is somewhat flawed.

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What accusation? Did you actually read what I posted? Let me quote it for you again:

what Flemingovia actually said:

yes, legally and constitutionally you could. But if you acted in such blatant defiance of the sovereignty of the Regional Assembly, I am sure it would be remembered by at least some members of this body, who would be sure to vote against you next time you stood for any election. And in TNP it does not take many votes to swing a ballot.

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Emphasis mine. You posted a hypothetical ("I could dismiss him). I posted a hypothetical response, pointing out what would happen IF any cabinet minister undertook such an action.

That was not an accusation. Although this is a lutz proposal, testing the waters like this allows us to explore the limits of the constitution and the balance of power of legislature vs the executive. To style what is going on as accusation is to over-personalize it.