TNP v. Rav: Discussion/Comments

Chasmanthe

Chasmanthe

TNPer
I thank the court for its fair and logical deliberation.

I would also like to congratulate the constitutional court on seeing another case through to conclusion.

The right to a fair trial is one of the tenets of our society in TNP, and I believe we have seen that upheld today.
 
What a disappointingly weak sentence. I don't think the cause of Rav's crime was him voting, it was certainly him speaking. Great job court for not handing the sentence that corresponds with the problem.
 
I'm not going to say a lot on this, other than that I'm disappointed by it as well.

I'd like to extend my thanks to the Attorney General for his hard work on this matter. I believe you did everything you could and worked tirelessly on this case.
 
Given the AG's and others comments, something that might improve the process might be allowing the prosecution to make a sentence recommendation if a guilty verdict is given.

I wouldn't have any problem with that. It doesn't force the court to levy sentences in accordance with the AG's recommendations but does allow the prosecution to inform the court TNP's position on the matter.
 
Not that I can see.

Although I was hesitant to the idea at first, I like this Public Gallery. Your comments have given the bench food for thought and we will learn from this experience. Given that this was the first time a Guilty plea was handed down after a full trial (and not after a plea of Gulity), I hope you'll understand there are some kinks we've yet to work out with the sentencing.

Thanks guys. The only way the Court can work really well for you is by the constant feedback you give us.
 
SillyString:
...Is the AG currently barred from offering recommendations?
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Nope.

But I like the idea of formalizing such recommendations. Today there's no particular place for it and as with this, we made a decision and issued the sentence. Even if the AG wanted to recommend a sentence he'd have needed to done so prior to knowing the defendant had been found guilty of either/both charges.
 
The Court generally makes the decision and issues the sentence. It's kind of our job.
 
Perhaps I missed a few words.

The time between rendering a decision AND issuing the sentence is 0.

Thus, anyone who wished to recommend a sentence has no time between decision and sentence to make a recommendation. I believe my sentence may have been a bit unclear before.
 
You're a Judge, you have the power to move to amend the Court Rules. If you want to amend them perhaps you should stop complaining and do it.
 
Where do you see me complaining?

Here's an idea I threw out there:
something that might improve the process might be allowing the prosecution to make a sentence recommendation if a guilty verdict is given.

I wouldn't have any problem with that. It doesn't force the court to levy sentences in accordance with the AG's recommendations but does allow the prosecution to inform the court TNP's position on the matter.
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Complaints usually don't have ideas attached to them. Doing something about it, is what I am doing here.

I welcome other feedback on the idea sans attacking the methods I'm choosing prior to making a recommendation to change the Court Rules. If there is support for the idea, great. If not, that's fine perhaps a different solution works better.
 
Amending the Court Rules happens in private as it is the Justices who vote on them, it's not opened to a public vote.

It's also not appropriate to seek advice on changing the current court rules in a thread designed solely for the discussion of TNP v. Ravania.
 
The Public Gallery is not yours to define Sanc. It's up to the public.

I also believe that we are public servants. We are elected. And, there has been some concern by some that the sentence in this case was a bit light. I'd like to have a further discussion on the matter and threw out and idea. My recommendation here is directly related to this case and not out of left field.

I do not feel that every part of the court rules need to be in secret, KGB-style. We're talking about one particular facet and I, for one, would value the input of the AG's office on this one. I'd also value the input of the other RA members.

If you do not, fine, but like I said this is the public gallery and discussions like this are part of why we have opened this subforum.

Again - if anyone has thoughts on the content, not method, timing, or place of the suggestion I have made - I'm open to discuss.
 
It's not even the Court Rules that are being discussed, but the Judicial Chapter of the Legal Code, which requires the Court to simultaneously consider verdict and sentence.
 
Eluvatar:
It's not even the Court Rules that are being discussed, but the Judicial Chapter of the Legal Code, which requires the Court to simultaneously consider verdict and sentence.
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And discussions on the amending the Legal Code go... in the Regional Assembly, last I checked.
 
All I will say is that, purely in my role as the defence attorney in this case, I was very pleased to avoid a speech ban for my client. You can read into that what you will regarding my thoughts on the wider legal question... ;)
 
While I'm not barred from offering a suggestion, the fact that the Court rendered verdict and sentence simultaneously rather than separately meant I was given zero opportunity to do so. I didn't put it in my argument section because I did not wish to seem presumptive and risk prejudicing the bench, nor did I wish to distract from the substance of the arguments being made. Furthermore, if any recommendation were to be taken, it would need to involve giving both sides a chance to speak in order to be constitutional.


Mal, it was a great pleasure and a privilege to work with you. I hope you'll find your way to our region to stay sometime - you would be a great asset to us, and should be applauded for the integrity and skill with which you discharged your duties.
 
Six months loss of voting rights for someone who does not even vote? It almost makes espionage against our region worthwhile, if the penalty for being caught is so low.

I am totally with Gaspo on this one.
 
Sanctaria:
Not that I can see.

Although I was hesitant to the idea at first, I like this Public Gallery. Your comments have given the bench food for thought and we will learn from this experience. Given that this was the first time a Guilty plea was handed down after a full trial (and not after a plea of Gulity), I hope you'll understand there are some kinks we've yet to work out with the sentencing.

Thanks guys. The only way the Court can work really well for you is by the constant feedback you give us.
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I think you mean guilty verdict, not guilty plea.

Important distinction for a justice.
 
The only options available to the court were speech and voting. We had nothing else per the Legal Code.

But...if someone would like to change the legal code, that's an idea.
 
punk d:
The only options available to the court were speech and voting. We had nothing else per the Legal Code.

But...if someone would like to change the legal code, that's an idea.
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I do wonder why we expend time and energy on trials when the options and penalties are so limited, even when a verdict is reached.
 
flemingovia:
Sanctaria:
Not that I can see.

Although I was hesitant to the idea at first, I like this Public Gallery. Your comments have given the bench food for thought and we will learn from this experience. Given that this was the first time a Guilty plea was handed down after a full trial (and not after a plea of Gulity), I hope you'll understand there are some kinks we've yet to work out with the sentencing.

Thanks guys. The only way the Court can work really well for you is by the constant feedback you give us.
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I think you mean guilty verdict, not guilty plea.

Important distinction for a justice.
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Yes guilty verdict, sorry, I was tired.

Though it's nice to know that even when I try being pleasant there's still someone willing to nitpick you out of it.
 
If that exchange yesterday with Punk was you trying to be pleasant, I'd hate to see you with the gloves off.

First off, kudos to AG Gaspo for winning one for the team. He has proven that it can be done.

Next, Malashaan was amazing as defense council. After the prosecution presented it's argument,, I was sure Rav was going down on both counts. Then Mal's brilliant arguments had me convinced Rav was going to get off. It was really great courtroom drama!

Lastly, I'm not so worked up about the sentence. It's not like Rav is around so much anymore, anyway. There's really nothing the court could do to put a real bite in the punishment. If we could see him being hauled off, protesting loudly, that would be more satisfying. But there is no script for this show... We make it up as we go along.

Edit: really bad Freudian slip. :blush:
 
Great Bights Mum:
If that exchange yesterday with Punk was you trying to be pleasant, I'd hate to see you with the gloves off.

First off, kudos to AG Gaspo for winning one for the team. He has proven that it can be done.

Next, Malashaan was amazing as defense council. After the prosecution presented it's argument,, I was sure Rav was going down on both counts. Then Mal's brilliant arguments had me convinced Rav was going to get off. It was really great courtroom drama!

Lastly, I'm not so worked up about the sentence. It's not like Rav is around so much anymore, anyway. There's really nothing the court could do to put a real bite in the punishment. If we could see him being hauled off, protesting loudly, that would be more satisfying. But there is no script for this show... We make it up as we go along.
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Agreed on basically all counts, though I was never sure Ravania would be convicted of Treason[note]though I was somewhat worried the AG's argument there might stick -- worried because that would have set a somewhat frightening precedent[/note] or that Ravania would be acquitted of Espionage[note]though Malashaan's argument did get me thinking[/note].

Especially in agreement that there is no punishment we as a region could give that would really hit Ravania. I suppose the Delegate could declare him a persona non grata too, but I don't expect any region or group to ever send him as an envoy to us so... Yeah.

Edit: Inadvertent obscenity removed from GBM's quote. :blush:
 
Great Bights Mum:
If that exchange yesterday with Punk was you trying to be pleasant, I'd hate to see you with the gloves off.
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My original post was me trying to be pleasant, obviously.

Your observation skills are improving everyday, GBM. Well done.
 
Thank you for the compliments. I enjoyed the trial and have decided to apply for Regional Assembly membership and stick around. I think that the system could benefit from some reforms - I've been thinking about this for a while.
 
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