Flem's Request for Review
- Thread starter Sanctaria
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- Pronouns
- he/him/his
- Discord
- sanctaria
"1. The Court will try all criminal and civil cases, resolve conflicts or ambiguities in the law, and review the constitutionality of laws or legality of government policies by request of an affected party."
I'm not seeing flem as an affected party.
I'm not seeing flem as an affected party.
- Pronouns
- he/him/his
- Discord
- sanctaria
I'm taking a legal approach. He is not an affected party. His rights have not been affected. The right flem has is to vote, not to vote for just anybody he wants to; you can only vote for people on the candidate list. And if their nomination isn't accepted or if it is invalid, then it is them who has had their rights affected, not whomever may vote for them.
So in such a scenario Asta has standing, but flem does not.
So in such a scenario Asta has standing, but flem does not.
Abbey
TNPer
And Asta has asked for a review. So we're reviewing.
As to the review - I actually think it's relatively simple. The bit of that clause that refers to government officials is only the -maintenance- of RA. The second half - "Candidates in any election must maintain membership in the Regional Assembly for the fifteen days before the opening of nominations." - makes no reference, implied or otherwise to government officials. This makes the rest of the points, about whether justices are government officials or not, fairly moot.
However, he does kind of directly ask it, so we should probably address it. On the one hand, you have the references made throughout the constitution to everything -except- the Court being the Government. There are several references to the government referring to the court - the muddiest clause is perhaps "4. The official opinion of the Court in any trial or review will be binding on all Government bodies and officials.", as the reading to which I'm leaning to means that essentially, Justices aren't bound by decisions they make. Which I don't like much, but it's better than the alternatives.
Another point to bear in mind is the wording of the FOIA - it is an area which uses Government and the Executive pretty much interchangeably, which means I'm not sure we can pull in the RL idea of the Judiciary being another branch of the Government. Not -least- because normally, one of those branches is legislative, and unless we're going to start making RA members swear the Oath of Office...
Sorry, these are more ramblings than actual coherent thoughts. Pick out from them what you will.
As to the review - I actually think it's relatively simple. The bit of that clause that refers to government officials is only the -maintenance- of RA. The second half - "Candidates in any election must maintain membership in the Regional Assembly for the fifteen days before the opening of nominations." - makes no reference, implied or otherwise to government officials. This makes the rest of the points, about whether justices are government officials or not, fairly moot.
However, he does kind of directly ask it, so we should probably address it. On the one hand, you have the references made throughout the constitution to everything -except- the Court being the Government. There are several references to the government referring to the court - the muddiest clause is perhaps "4. The official opinion of the Court in any trial or review will be binding on all Government bodies and officials.", as the reading to which I'm leaning to means that essentially, Justices aren't bound by decisions they make. Which I don't like much, but it's better than the alternatives.
Another point to bear in mind is the wording of the FOIA - it is an area which uses Government and the Executive pretty much interchangeably, which means I'm not sure we can pull in the RL idea of the Judiciary being another branch of the Government. Not -least- because normally, one of those branches is legislative, and unless we're going to start making RA members swear the Oath of Office...
Sorry, these are more ramblings than actual coherent thoughts. Pick out from them what you will.
I believe we can interpret that justice are part of the 'government' of The North Pacific, small G.
In the opening clause of the Constitution it states
After this clause there are multiple sections describing different government positions - delegate, RA, Security Council, AG, etc.
After detailing these different parts of government, the constitution starts to talk about the 15 day rule as well as this:
Re 3: This gives us the split of 'government' that I think, Abbey, you were looking for. It states clearly the executive, judiciary, and legislative. To me, we can use this to make a clear link between government and Court Justices.
I think we can somewhat easily make the case that Justices are 'government' officials and that Asta as a non-member of the RA is not qualified to run for any governmental office.
As I think of that angle - I think some Sec Council members are not members of the RA. If so and if we decided to rule in the manner I'm suggesting, I feel we should address this.
In the opening clause of the Constitution it states
emphasis mine.
After this clause there are multiple sections describing different government positions - delegate, RA, Security Council, AG, etc.
After detailing these different parts of government, the constitution starts to talk about the 15 day rule as well as this:
Re 2: Justices swear oaths of office. By implication this makes them 'government officials'. Obviously we could rule that we aren't government officials but i think if we do so, we'd need to define who are government officials.
Re 3: This gives us the split of 'government' that I think, Abbey, you were looking for. It states clearly the executive, judiciary, and legislative. To me, we can use this to make a clear link between government and Court Justices.
I think we can somewhat easily make the case that Justices are 'government' officials and that Asta as a non-member of the RA is not qualified to run for any governmental office.
As I think of that angle - I think some Sec Council members are not members of the RA. If so and if we decided to rule in the manner I'm suggesting, I feel we should address this.
- Pronouns
- he/him/his
- Discord
- sanctaria
I haven't looked in depth yet, but just from skimming, I'm inclined to agree with punk and say that Justices are government officials, but for slightly different reasons.
I have work and private stuff going on right now, so I can't commit the time to look more closely until the weekend.
I have work and private stuff going on right now, so I can't commit the time to look more closely until the weekend.
Abbey
TNPer
I'm not writing a ruling on this when we've got nigh-on no discussion - it's really hard to put a still-without-conclusions discussion into a coherent ruling.
I've dropped my thoughts in already, and if one of you could draft something, that would be nice. If you really need me over the next few days, then you can fire things at my gmail, and I'll try to pick them up. If it's urgent, there are a couple of people (just need to check for permission before putting their names up publicly), there are a few people who can get hold of me.
Try to get something out on this before I come back, please
I've dropped my thoughts in already, and if one of you could draft something, that would be nice. If you really need me over the next few days, then you can fire things at my gmail, and I'll try to pick them up. If it's urgent, there are a couple of people (just need to check for permission before putting their names up publicly), there are a few people who can get hold of me.
Try to get something out on this before I come back, please
Sorry all..i was about 90% done monday...then flem decided not to go forward...then i got real busy with work.
I should have something posted tomorrow evening. From Wed - Mon I will be out of action as my dad is going to have surgery and i'm travelling. It's kinda sudden and i hope he'll be ok. So i'll post something tomorrow.
I should have something posted tomorrow evening. From Wed - Mon I will be out of action as my dad is going to have surgery and i'm travelling. It's kinda sudden and i hope he'll be ok. So i'll post something tomorrow.
Abbey
TNPer
Ruling of the Court of the North Pacific
In regards to the Judicial Inquiry filed by flemingovia on whether Justices are government officials.
The Court took into consideration the Inquiry filed here by flemingovia.
The Court took into consideration the Relevant parts of the Constitution and Legal Code of the North Pacific:
Constitution:
Constitution:
Legal Code:
Legal Code:
Section 4.1: Oath of Office
1. All government officials will take the Oath of Office below before assuming their role within the government of The North Pacific.
3. This Oath will be binding and violations are grounds for a recall.
Section 4.2: Election Law Definitions
4. "Abstentions" are not votes for or against any candidate, and may not be used to determine the results of any election. They may be used for quorum, activity, or other purposes.
5. "Candidates" are those citizens who declare themselves, or have accepted a nomination by another Assembly member preceding the close of nominations, as a candidate for an office to be chosen at that election. Candidates may only stand for one office during a given Election Cycle.
6. "Election Commissioner" is an individual designated to supervise a given election. No one who may be a candidate in an election may serve as an Election Commissioner during it.
7. "Election Cycle" is defined as the period of time that begins on the first day on which nominations, or a declaration, of candidacy are made and concludes with the final declaration of results for an election. The dates for the Election Cycle will be designated at least 30 days in advance by the Delegate .
8. A "vacancy" in an office occurs when the holder of it resigns, is removed, or abandons it . An office is abandoned when its holder does not log onto the regional forums for two weeks without prior notice, or when an election winner or appointee fails to post the Oath of Office. Vacancies of elected offices are filled through a special election unless a it cannot be completed prior to the beginning of the appropriate scheduled election cycle. Pending an election, however, a vacancy may be temporarily filled as provided by the Constitution, this Legal Code, or a rule adopted by the appropriate body. Vacancies of appointed positions may be filled in accordance with proper appointment procedures.
Section 4.3: Overall Election Law
9. In General and Judicial elections, Election Commissioners will be appointed by the Delegate to oversee the nomination and election processes at least one week before the month in which the election begins. If an appointment of Election Commissioners has not been made by that time, the Chief Justice shall promptly make the appointment within 48 hours.
10. The period for nominations or declarations of candidacy shall last for seven days.
11. Voting will begin three days after the period for nominations or declarations has closed and last for seven days.
12. If a run-off vote is required it will begin within two days of the first vote ending and it shall last for five days.
Section 4.4: General Elections
13. The election cycle for the terms of the Delegate and Vice Delegate, and of the Speaker, will begin on the first day of the months of January, May, and September.
14. Non-incumbent candidates for Delegate or Vice Delegate may not obtain an endorsement level during the election cycle greater than the level authorized for members of the Security Council under Chapter 5.
Section 4.5: Judicial Elections
15. The election cycle for the terms of Justices, and the Attorney General will begin on the first days of the months of March, July, and November.
16. Whenever the position is vacant, the Justices shall elect a Chief Justice from among themselves by a majority vote.
17. In the event that seven days after the conclusion of a Judicial election, including the conclusion of any required run-off votes, a Chief Justice has not been elected, the Justice that received the highest number of votes in said election, and in the event of a tie for highest number of votes the Justice among those tied with the largest amount of elapsed time since that Justice's most recent admission to the Regional Assembly without an interruption, shall become Chief Justice.
Section 4.6: Special Elections
18. A special election will be held in the event of a vacancy in any elected office or position.
19. The Delegate, or if the Delegate is not available, the Speaker, or if the Delegate and Speaker are not available, any Court Justice, will serve as Election Commissioner for the special election.
20. The period for nominations or declarations of candidacy in the special election will last for five days, beginning within two days after the vacancy is noticed.
21. Voting will begin one day after the period for nominations or declarations has closed and last for five days, unless there is only one candidate for each vacancy in which case they will take office immediately.
1. All government officials will take the Oath of Office below before assuming their role within the government of The North Pacific.
2. All government officials will be required to take the Oath of Office within one week of the certification of election results by the Election Commissioner, or if appointed, within one week of their appointment being announced. The taking of the Oath constitutes assumption of the office. Failure to post the oath within the allotted time will result in the office being considered vacant, to be filled in accordance with all laws governing elections or appointments, as is appropriate for the office in question.
3. This Oath will be binding and violations are grounds for a recall.
Section 4.2: Election Law Definitions
4. "Abstentions" are not votes for or against any candidate, and may not be used to determine the results of any election. They may be used for quorum, activity, or other purposes.
5. "Candidates" are those citizens who declare themselves, or have accepted a nomination by another Assembly member preceding the close of nominations, as a candidate for an office to be chosen at that election. Candidates may only stand for one office during a given Election Cycle.
6. "Election Commissioner" is an individual designated to supervise a given election. No one who may be a candidate in an election may serve as an Election Commissioner during it.
7. "Election Cycle" is defined as the period of time that begins on the first day on which nominations, or a declaration, of candidacy are made and concludes with the final declaration of results for an election. The dates for the Election Cycle will be designated at least 30 days in advance by the Delegate .
8. A "vacancy" in an office occurs when the holder of it resigns, is removed, or abandons it . An office is abandoned when its holder does not log onto the regional forums for two weeks without prior notice, or when an election winner or appointee fails to post the Oath of Office. Vacancies of elected offices are filled through a special election unless a it cannot be completed prior to the beginning of the appropriate scheduled election cycle. Pending an election, however, a vacancy may be temporarily filled as provided by the Constitution, this Legal Code, or a rule adopted by the appropriate body. Vacancies of appointed positions may be filled in accordance with proper appointment procedures.
Section 4.3: Overall Election Law
9. In General and Judicial elections, Election Commissioners will be appointed by the Delegate to oversee the nomination and election processes at least one week before the month in which the election begins. If an appointment of Election Commissioners has not been made by that time, the Chief Justice shall promptly make the appointment within 48 hours.
10. The period for nominations or declarations of candidacy shall last for seven days.
11. Voting will begin three days after the period for nominations or declarations has closed and last for seven days.
12. If a run-off vote is required it will begin within two days of the first vote ending and it shall last for five days.
Section 4.4: General Elections
13. The election cycle for the terms of the Delegate and Vice Delegate, and of the Speaker, will begin on the first day of the months of January, May, and September.
14. Non-incumbent candidates for Delegate or Vice Delegate may not obtain an endorsement level during the election cycle greater than the level authorized for members of the Security Council under Chapter 5.
Section 4.5: Judicial Elections
15. The election cycle for the terms of Justices, and the Attorney General will begin on the first days of the months of March, July, and November.
16. Whenever the position is vacant, the Justices shall elect a Chief Justice from among themselves by a majority vote.
17. In the event that seven days after the conclusion of a Judicial election, including the conclusion of any required run-off votes, a Chief Justice has not been elected, the Justice that received the highest number of votes in said election, and in the event of a tie for highest number of votes the Justice among those tied with the largest amount of elapsed time since that Justice's most recent admission to the Regional Assembly without an interruption, shall become Chief Justice.
Section 4.6: Special Elections
18. A special election will be held in the event of a vacancy in any elected office or position.
19. The Delegate, or if the Delegate is not available, the Speaker, or if the Delegate and Speaker are not available, any Court Justice, will serve as Election Commissioner for the special election.
20. The period for nominations or declarations of candidacy in the special election will last for five days, beginning within two days after the vacancy is noticed.
21. Voting will begin one day after the period for nominations or declarations has closed and last for five days, unless there is only one candidate for each vacancy in which case they will take office immediately.
Legal Code Chapter 2:
The Court opines the following:
The question before the Court is to determine if Justices are government officials. This question is most directly answered by looking at Article 6 of the Constitution. This notes that “government officials” must maintain membership in the Regional Assembly, and that any election candidate must be a Regional Assembly member for 15 days before the opening of nominations. Because these requirements are included within the same clause, this Court believes that they should be considered together and linked. Justices are elected positions, as is made clear in Article 4 of the Constitution and in Chapter 4 of the Legal Code. Article 6.1 also makes clear that government officials are positions above and beyond just an RA member. In other places in the Constitution and Legal Code (namely, Article 6.3 of the Constitution, and during various parts of Article 4 in the Legal Code, as well as possibly others), Justices and other Judicial posts are included with but also defined separately from the other branches of governance. Specifically, Article 7.3 separates government officials into three categories: legislative, executive and judicial. To this end, the Court finds that all members that have elected extra-Regional Assembly offices are government officials.
With respect to flemingovia's direct question around Astarial's candidacy:
The Court opines that at first glace these two clauses could intimate that “government officials” do not include Court Justices. However, within the context of the Legal Code there does not appear to be such an inconsistency. With regards to Legal Code Section 2, Clause 12, the distinction is clearly more of a practical nature, as the Justices will not be the party filing and indictment – the indictment is filed by the 'executive' office. Further, with regards to Section 1, Clause 17, this is a combination of a clarification of the different branches of government, as well as a practical consideration. In this case, the two separate branches are Government and Court.