A common sense idea

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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I realise that in tnp we are supposed to do what we are told by the documents rather than apply common sense, but it seems sensible to be for blue wolf simply to see out the remainder of mcm's term. Through the vice presidential election he already has a public mandate.

After 10 years I am a bit tired of being told "the legal code won't let you do that." For once, lets just do the common sense thing.
 
As much as I agree with you that this is the common sense thing to do, if the Court rules that the law does not allow the Vice Delegate to succeed the Delegate for the remainder of the term then he cannot succeed him. The problem with following "common sense" rather than the law is that people's interpretation of common sense differs, which is why we come together collectively in the Regional Assembly to express the sense of the region through law. Throw out the rule of law now in favor of "common sense" and we will end up with the "common sense" of a few dictating to the many, and nowhere is this more dangerous than in the transition of power.

If the Court rules that a special election must proceed, the appropriate thing to do would be to try to change the law for future circumstances. The appropriate thing to do would not be for the Court's ruling to be ignored in favor of what some see as common sense.
 
flemingovia:
That sounds to me very much like a variant on "the constitution won't let us"
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Well, I suppose it is. If you want to do something that the Constitution won't let you do, the solution is to amend the Constitution -- not to just do it anyway. I happen to agree with you, Flem, that it makes more sense to let the Vice Delegate serve as Delegate for the remainder of the term in the event of a Delegate's recall or resignation. It may well be that's also the law. But if it isn't, we can't throw out the rule of law just because we think this is the best way to do things. We have to change the law to reflect the best way to do things. Because if we throw out the rule of law we end up with a lawless region and, inevitably, with a Delegate who thinks he is the law.
 
Yeah, I'm with Cormac. This is the Regional Assembly - we can change the law to be anything we want. ANYTHING WE WANT. It would be a relatively simple matter to edit 4.2.8 of the legal code to make an exception for the delegate.

EDIT: And besides, if Blue Wolf does have such a mandate, then he will win the election easily, and it will be just as if we had taken your advice.
 
In the highly unlikely event that Blue Wolf II wins the Special Election for Delegate and accepts the position, a Special Election for Vice Delegate will be required, no?
 
flemingovia:
I realise that in tnp we are supposed to do what we are told by the documents rather than apply common sense, but it seems sensible to be for blue wolf simply to see out the remainder of mcm's term. Through the vice presidential election he already has a public mandate.

After 10 years I am a bit tired of being told "the legal code won't let you do that." For once, lets just do the common sense thing.
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Aye! :clap:
 
I can't remember whether I thought this or not back then. Opinions change, and it really only occurred to me recently when I was chatting on IRC that all these interim elections are a bit much.

That being said, I do realise that if this common sense idea is adopted, it will become what happens whether I like the vice delegate or not. I am content with that.
 
If we do the common sense thing (which I'm ok with) "against" the law, we're setting a precedent.

Obey the laws or change them, there's no point in making them if we don't. Just apply common sense in every case.
 
flemingovia:
I can't remember whether I thought this or not back then. Opinions change, and it really only occurred to me recently when I was chatting on IRC that all these interim elections are a bit much.

That being said, I do realise that if this common sense idea is adopted, it will become what happens whether I like the vice delegate or not. I am content with that.
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I honestly thought we had a line of succession for a reason rather than having to resort to special elections?

I mean, isn't that why we voted on lines of succession at least twice now?

What's the point in having one if someone isn't going to be acting [insert role here] if the Delegate or other post in the LOS left their post ?
 
There is no such thing as common sense, and as such this entire proposal is inane. Whilst you may argue that its common sense that the Vice-Delegate automatically becomes delegate, I could counter by arguing that its common sense that the region elect the Delegate.

Please don't falsely characterize your own opinion as 'common sense' when really all it is is your own opinion.
 
I'm going to have to agree with Bel here, which really doesn't happen very often. The way our laws are currently written and with the role the Vice Delegate currently has, there's nothing really "common sense" about him succeeding the Delegate for the remainder of the term. The Delegate is our head of state and head of government; the Vice Delegate has no constitutional role at all apart from presiding over the Security Council and temporarily executing the Delegate's duties if he is removed or unable to serve. One can easily argue that voters use different criteria to elect a Vice Delegate than they do to elect a Delegate, given that their roles are so different, and we shouldn't expect that voters would want a Vice Delegate to succeed the Delegate for the remainder of the term.

Just to be crystal clear here, in light of the Court's recent ruling any attempt to follow "common sense" as articulated in this thread would be an illegal coup. So let's not do that.
 
Cormac Stark:
Just to be crystal clear here, in light of the Court's recent ruling any attempt to follow "common sense" as articulated in this thread would be an illegal coup. So let's not do that.
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My goodness, that is the first time it has ever been suggested taht I am planning an illegal coup in TNP.

Old Timers may find that an amusing concept.
 
flemingovia:
Cormac Stark:
Just to be crystal clear here, in light of the Court's recent ruling any attempt to follow "common sense" as articulated in this thread would be an illegal coup. So let's not do that.
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My goodness, that is the first time it has ever been suggested taht I am planning an illegal coup in TNP.

Old Timers may find that an amusing concept.
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To be crystal clear twice, I wasn't suggesting you were planning an illegal coup. I just didn't want anyone who might be inclined to coup to seize upon your common sense argument, or the absence of a unanimous decision by the Court, as justification.
 
Govindia:
flemingovia:
I can't remember whether I thought this or not back then. Opinions change, and it really only occurred to me recently when I was chatting on IRC that all these interim elections are a bit much.

That being said, I do realise that if this common sense idea is adopted, it will become what happens whether I like the vice delegate or not. I am content with that.
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I honestly thought we had a line of succession for a reason rather than having to resort to special elections?

I mean, isn't that why we voted on lines of succession at least twice now?

What's the point in having one if someone isn't going to be acting [insert role here] if the Delegate or other post in the LOS left their post ?
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bump

MODEDIT: This will not be approved. There is never a reason to bump a thread at the top of the forum. The post has been read- if no one commented on it, it's because they chose not to. -COE
 
You know, this brings up a silly sore-point concerning the Constitution.

What we really need to do is to change this particular point so that in the event that a Delegate resigns or otherwise cannot complete a given term, the Vice Delegate becomes delegate and the next person in the order of succession becomes Vice Delegate to finish out the remainder of the term.

Simple solution... ???, ?????????

Of course it couldn't be retroactive to cover this election as per the Constitution. :P
 
Are we sure we want to do that though?

Vice Delegates have specific Vice Delegate responsibilities which we vote based on currently, do we want to add how well we think they'd do as Delegate for a limited term to the mix?

I'm not certain either way. Convince me.
 
Personally, I like elections. The campaigns, the debates, the slogans and banners. It's ever so much fun. I think it's a treat to have an extra election here and there.

Consider this: when an elected delegate doesn't complete his term it's usually because something bad happened, either a RL problem or a recall, roguery, etc. Holding a Special election is a good way to move forward. It provides a positive event for the region to focus on. Whether we're running or just voting we get a new chance to re-affirm our love of democracy.
 
Yeah, I don't really like the idea of changing the way things are done now. And I don't see where the problem is in having special elections should the need arise to do so. These things are run very smoothly in TNP and they don't take too much time. Plus, they're fun.
 
When I was vice delegate and Dalimbar resigned on this very day two years ago with a month left in his term, we had a special election even though I ran unopposed and then we had another regularly scheduled election a few weeks later. Waiting until the next election was even more common sensical in my situation but the law is clear and the precedent has been set. We've had a couple of years to fix this if it was such a big deal.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Lord Byron:
In the highly unlikely event that Blue Wolf II wins the Special Election for Delegate
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...So I can expect your vote then?
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:rofl:

While I wouldn't be opposed to Blue Wolf serving at the remainder of the term in this particular instance... I don't like the precedent it would set.

Besides - elections are fun! :D :w00t:
 
Blackshear:
When I was vice delegate and Dalimbar resigned on this very day two years ago with a month left in his term, we had a special election even though I ran unopposed and then we had another regularly scheduled election a few weeks later. Waiting until the next election was even more common sensical in my situation but the law is clear and the precedent has been set. We've had a couple of years to fix this if it was such a big deal.
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To be fair, since then we've adopted a new constitution which says this slightly differently:

New Constitution:
8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties of the Delegate. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties of the Delegate.
...
6. Procedures to fill vacancies in elected offices may be established by law.
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Previous Constitution:
8. In any instance where the Delegate is absent, incapacitated, unwilling or unable to carry out his duties the Vice Delegate shall exercise the powers of the Delegate.
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How about we make a pie? That usually solves.... things.

Personally, I think any line of succession is futile. Perhaps excepting the Security Council, every Delegate election is evidence that the only person TNPers are ever sure about having as their Delegate is the Delegate they elect. If we adopt a serious, rambling LoS such as the U.S. Presidential one, the top offices on that list are going to have to begin proving their possible Delegacy, and then it all gets grey.
 
Iro:
How about we make a pie? That usually solves.... things.

Personally, I think any line of succession is futile. Perhaps excepting the Security Council, every Delegate election is evidence that the only person TNPers are ever sure about having as their Delegate is the Delegate they elect. If we adopt a serious, rambling LoS such as the U.S. Presidential one, the top offices on that list are going to have to begin proving their possible Delegacy, and then it all gets grey.
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Iro, I disagree. If you have a hypothetical situation where the WA delegate, the vice delegate and half the security council all go rogue at the same time... then you do in fact need that OoS because there will be someone on the SC that we can legitimately elevate to the in-game delegacy, although I'm not familiar how that works in practice. The same is the case for another hurricane hitting the east coast or other RL situation that puts multiple members of the executive out of action.
 
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