Bring sanity back to our flag laws

All of that notwithstanding, it still isn't hard to believe that you'd attempt a coup. I mean, you've done it before.

Not saying you were trying to coup, but there are also more ways to coup than a military one.
 
Gaspo:
Therefore, I propose the following...:
Section 7.1: Arms, Flag, and Seal
4. The Arms of the North Pacific may not be used in any form excepting the official Regional Flag, by any nation, without the express written consent of the currently sitting Delegate, in the interests of preserving the validity of these Arms as a reliable and official symbol of the Government of The North Pacific.
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Except that the clause right before allows its use besides the flag:
3. Each institution in the North Pacific's government may establish for itself a seal which uses the arms of the North Pacific.
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Perhaps there's little value to allowing Seals? How many are created and used? Are seals more communicative than the whole Gov. Just using the Arms?
How about:
Section 7.1: Arms and Flag, and Seal
3. Each institution in the North Pacific's government may establish for itself a seal which uses the arms of the North Pacific.
4. The Arms of the North Pacific may not be used in any form except the official Regional Flag. The Arms shall be used for all official business.
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unibot:
$@&!?$ ¥#$@
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Unibot,
You seem very emotional, and I humbly suggest that you take a breath and reflect.

Lord Byron
Your Supreme Leader
 
Grimalkin:
Not saying you were trying to coup, but there are also more ways to coup than a military one.
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Well you need some way of suspending the constitution. It requires some sort of power, unless you're already the delegate, then it means maintaining your power with force.
 
I like Lord Byron's adjustment. Seals do not appear to have been used - the Court uses them to open Trials but that could easily be abandoned as a practice.
 
unibot:
Grimalkin:
Not saying you were trying to coup, but there are also more ways to coup than a military one.
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Well you need some way of suspending the constitution. It requires some sort of power, unless you're already the delegate, then it means maintaining your power with force.
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You are such a one-dimensional thinker.

Was it also just "civil disobedience" when you helped JAL coup this very region?
 
But now the delegate cannot exempt the Coat of Arms for newcomers who don't know they can't fly the Arms. Do we really want to charge people with conspiracy, treason, fraud etc. for flying our Arms in flag form?
 
Grimalkin:
unibot:
Grimalkin:
Not saying you were trying to coup, but there are also more ways to coup than a military one.
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Well you need some way of suspending the constitution. It requires some sort of power, unless you're already the delegate, then it means maintaining your power with force.
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You are such a one-dimensional thinker.
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And you haven't been thinking at all during this discussion!
 
unibot:
But now the delegate cannot exempt the Coat of Arms for newcomers who don't know they can't fly the Arms. Do we really want to charge people with conspiracy, treason, fraud etc. for flying our Arms in flag form?
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So...what you're saying is that you're a noob?
 
Grimalkin:
unibot:
But now the delegate cannot exempt the Coat of Arms for newcomers who don't know they can't fly the Arms. Do we really want to charge people with conspiracy, treason, fraud etc. for flying our Arms in flag form?
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So...what you're saying is that you're a noob?
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No I'm reasonable. I don't think we should be applying treason or fraud to things that are hardly that at all. We've already got a reputation of being perhaps one of the most legalistic regions in NationStates.
 
And you think that with ONE law, you're going to change all that?

I know that you're an extreme idealist, but come on.

The fact is this: you willingly broke the law and called it civil disobedience, now you are doing your damnedest to escape your prosecution.

There is a VAST difference between a noob flying the arms without knowing and between YOU doing it.

It's called intent.
 
Grimalkin:
And you think that with ONE law, you're going to change all that?

I know that you're an extreme idealist, but come on.

The fact is this: you willingly broke the law and called it civil disobedience, now you are doing your damnedest to escape your prosecution.

There is a VAST difference between a noob flying the arms without knowing and between YOU doing it.

It's called intent.
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And the law can't distinguish between the two. So what is it? Have a reasonable law that let's people you dislike off of charges that are too harsh for them to deserve anyway? Or an unreasonable law that makes you feel good?
 
Intent is actually a key part of the law.

Seriously, you've turned a non-issue into, well, still a non-issue. I can't imagine any administration going after a noob who's been properly informed of the law and is willing to change it.

Your idealism is nothing short of toxic. You're not concerned with "liberty" or "self-determination," you're concerned with you. Your concern is to upset the status quo, to make as much noise as possible in order to draw as much attention to yourself as possible. The worst part is that we indulge you.

You are nothing short of an attention whore.
 
Gaspo:
I like Lord Byron's adjustment. Seals do not appear to have been used - the Court uses them to open Trials but that could easily be abandoned as a practice.
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ag_seal.png


del-seal.png


mofa-seal.png


mowa-seal.png


sc-seal.png
 
I'm aware that they exist, Elu; I said they hadn't been used. Can you show me a place where the seals are in frequent use?
 
Can you show me where anyone is flying the Coat of Arms, not as a regional flag? I don't see that as usual government protocol, at all.
 
unibot:
Can you show me where anyone is flying the Coat of Arms, not as a regional flag? I don't see that as usual government protocol, at all.
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Check your trial thread. It's used there, and in every other trial.
 
Gaspo, I use the Delegates seal as often as I remember. I used it for a post on the NS forums just recently, and one inside the Delegates government subforum (It was only created a few weeks ago). The Security Council one is used for official statements etc. I would very much prefer to encourage the use of the seals....
 
Gaspo, the Seal of the Security Council is in constant use, certifying reports issued by the Security Council once every five minutes here.

The WA Affairs Ministry until recently used the WA Affairs seal on a regular basis as well.
 
unibot:
Can you show me where anyone is flying the Coat of Arms, not as a regional flag? I don't see that as usual government protocol, at all.
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Going with the "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" strategy, eh?

Well played, little one.
 
If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. So, we keep the seals, and modify my proposal to read as follows:
Section 7.1: Arms, Flag, and Seal
4. The Arms of the North Pacific may not be used in any form by any nation, without the express written consent of the currently sitting Delegate, in the interests of preserving the validity of these Arms as a reliable and official symbol of the Government of The North Pacific. Use of the Regional Flag by citizens, or of Seals containing the Arms by relevant government officials, is permitted
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Grimalkin:
unibot:
Can you show me where anyone is flying the Coat of Arms, not as a regional flag? I don't see that as usual government protocol, at all.
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Going with the "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" strategy, eh?

Well played, little one.
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Not singling you out; just quoting this post as an example. Everyone: quit it. If you don't have anything to say about the legislation, don't say anything at all.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Grimalkin:
unibot:
Can you show me where anyone is flying the Coat of Arms, not as a regional flag? I don't see that as usual government protocol, at all.
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Going with the "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" strategy, eh?

Well played, little one.
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Not singling you out; just quoting this post as an example. Everyone: quit it. If you don't have anything to say about the legislation, don't say anything at all.
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I'm sorry, but everything I've said has been on topic.

This legislation is frakking crazy because its proposer is frakking crazy. If you don't believe me, then believe all the other frakking crazy things he has done.


As an aside, I'd like to thank Erastide and #tnp for their help in the development of this post.

*salutes*


EDIT: Typo.
 
Grimalkin:
This legislation is frakking crazy
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On topic.

Grimalkin:
because its proposer is frakking crazy.
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Off-topic, and borderline flaming. See the difference? I suggest taking a break from this thread for a while.

That goes for everyone who doesn't have a substantive contribution to make to drafting this legislation, up to and including the original poster.
 
Apologies to Elu for my laziness.

Gaspo:
If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. So, we keep the seals, and modify my proposal to read as follows:
Section 7.1: Arms, Flag, and Seal
4. The Arms of the North Pacific may not be used in any form by any nation, without the express written consent of the currently sitting Delegate, in the interests of preserving the validity of these Arms as a reliable and official symbol of the Government of The North Pacific. Use of the Regional Flag by citizens, or of Seals containing the Arms by relevant government officials, is permitted
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What about requiring the Seals use for official communication?

What about makes the Seals official? If they are up to "each institution", can't they get bastardized by [unwitting] bad taste?

I do see the need to allow for people to incorporate the Arms into their own flag; if the Seals were used as official communication, it would free up the Arms, no?

Why the need for approval from the Legal Delegate to use the official symbols?
 
Lord Byron:
Apologies to Elu for my laziness.

Gaspo:
If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. So, we keep the seals, and modify my proposal to read as follows:
Section 7.1: Arms, Flag, and Seal
4. The Arms of the North Pacific may not be used in any form by any nation, without the express written consent of the currently sitting Delegate, in the interests of preserving the validity of these Arms as a reliable and official symbol of the Government of The North Pacific. Use of the Regional Flag by citizens, or of Seals containing the Arms by relevant government officials, is permitted
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What about requiring the Seals use for official communication?

What about makes the Seals official? If they are up to "each institution", can't they get bastardized by [unwitting] bad taste?

I do see the need to allow for people to incorporate the Arms into their own flag; if the Seals were used as official communication, it would free up the Arms, no?

Why the need for approval from the Legal Delegate to use the official symbols?
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Technically speaking,e very post a government official makes in an official capacity would constitute an official communication. Requiring the seals would be insane.

I have no problem with making the seals official.

Noone has yet explained in a way other than "I WANT TO" why there is a need for the Arms to be in people's flags. Would you do so?

The reason for restricting it to the legal delegate is so that there is a clear, and highly contained, approval process for the Seal. The more restricted it is, the more it can be counted on as a symbol denoting the official nature of the document to which it is affixed.
 
I think it's lovely that we have a regional flag. We have an expression of regional unity and pride. But that flag then represents TNP. And let's face it, while there are two lovely blue bars, realistically it's the arms that makes it a *TNP* flag. So regardless of whether it's the whole flag or just the arms on *any* other kind of background, you're representing yourself as part of TNP.

Regardless of how stupid current laws may be, the question is, should there be something that is an official type flag, reserved for specific individuals in government? Not that they would *have* to fly it, but that the law specifically stated who was allowed to fly the flag and therefore speak for TNP. (I'm thinking something like delegate, vice delegate, SC, ambassadors in other regions...)

I personally don't have a strong opinion either way, but do I kinda think it should go completely one way or the other. Either using the arms (in whatever sense) on a flag means you are speaking for TNP or the arms are allowed to be put on whatever flag, whatever nation you want.
 
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