Regarding Govindia

Kiwi:
I'm a little annoyed that others have seen fit to have a go at GBM, she if anyone, has been reasonable in dealing with these matters.
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The reason I'm "going after" GBM (and I presume you're referring to me) has nothing to do with the actions she's taken in a moderation context (warnings are warnings, whatever), and everything to do with the way she's responded to reasonable inquiries as to the process. Vague statements, a lack of meaningful explanation, and lately, condescension and arrogance (in my opinion), is worth questioning. If we're all supposed to be respectful and so forth, those rules should apply to all of us, equally, and those who make the rulings on this stuff ought to be the perfect examples of proper behavior. I don't believe that to have been the case in the way GBM has handled some very simple questions about this issue.
 
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
 
I'm not even understanding why half the people in that list Elu mentioned would even be warned ?

and I didn't understand Boker's comment in her post.... :blink:
 
Bokeryville:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
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I've known Gov for a long time and find a lot of his behavior unacceptable but I'm lost on where that gives women a separate set of rules in reacting to him, and how anyone has done anything to make you feel unwelcome here. Please do explain; I can say at least for myself that that was never my intention, and has to my knowledge never been the goal of any reasonable TNP citizen.
 
Gaspo:
Bokeryville:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
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I've known Gov for a long time and find a lot of his behavior unacceptable but I'm lost on where that gives women a separate set of rules in reacting to him, and how anyone has done anything to make you feel unwelcome here. Please do explain; I can say at least for myself that that was never my intention, and has to my knowledge never been the goal of any reasonable TNP citizen.
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Do not say incorrect information sir. You may have known of me for a while since I first heard of you in TWP, but you do not know me well at all. You have made no attempt to do so and have been almost prejudiced towards me as some other people here. Please do not say you know me when you do not.
 
madjack:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Why didn't you consider warning Govindia?
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I have a very simple and short question... What the Hell did I do?! :blink:

I mean, I have kept my opinion on the whole Gov thing to myself. But, let me speak freely here now. Frankly, I think Gov has been getting a right good piling on well beyond anything initially deserved. As part of the moderation team, I can say that this whole Gov issue has taken on a flavor of the totally absurd. My personal suggestion, not that anyone gives a rat's patootie, is just put a lid on it, hit the 'reset' button and get on with it. This constant chewing away does nothing to solve any issues involved. And I have nothing more to say on the subject because anything I say generally falls on deaf ears.

:2c:
 
Govindia:
Gaspo:
Bokeryville:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
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I've known Gov for a long time and find a lot of his behavior unacceptable but I'm lost on where that gives women a separate set of rules in reacting to him, and how anyone has done anything to make you feel unwelcome here. Please do explain; I can say at least for myself that that was never my intention, and has to my knowledge never been the goal of any reasonable TNP citizen.
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Do not say incorrect information sir. You may have known of me for a while since I first heard of you in TWP, but you do not know me well at all. You have made no attempt to do so and have been almost prejudiced towards me as some other people here. Please do not say you know me when you do not.
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I don't have to speak to you directly to watch you get banned from countless IRC channels, watch you harass my close friends, and watch you generally behave like a child. Nothing I've said is untrue; I dare you to factually prove me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against you; I've watched you spend more than half a decade giving me a laundry list of reasons not to like you. It's not prejudice, it's carefully considered disdain. Get it right.

Despite your apparent martyr complex, however, this thread continues to have nothing to do with anyone's opinion of you. Ever time you attempt to make a conversation revolve around you, you only prove everyone who makes comments about you, absolutely correct.
 
Gaspo:
Govindia:
Gaspo:
Bokeryville:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
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I've known Gov for a long time and find a lot of his behavior unacceptable but I'm lost on where that gives women a separate set of rules in reacting to him, and how anyone has done anything to make you feel unwelcome here. Please do explain; I can say at least for myself that that was never my intention, and has to my knowledge never been the goal of any reasonable TNP citizen.
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Do not say incorrect information sir. You may have known of me for a while since I first heard of you in TWP, but you do not know me well at all. You have made no attempt to do so and have been almost prejudiced towards me as some other people here. Please do not say you know me when you do not.
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I don't have to speak to you directly to watch you get banned from countless IRC channels, watch you harass my close friends, and watch you generally behave like a child. Nothing I've said is untrue; I dare you to factually prove me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against you; I've watched you spend more than half a decade giving me a laundry list of reasons not to like you. It's not prejudice, it's carefully considered disdain. Get it right.

Despite your apparent martyr complex, however, this thread continues to have nothing to do with anyone's opinion of you. Ever time you attempt to make a conversation revolve around you, you only prove everyone who makes comments about you, absolutely correct.
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This isn't any martyr complex. This thread deals with me so I have every right to talk here.

And, no, just because you may talk about me to other people does not mean you know me. It still makes your prejudice. You never at all attempted to have a conversation with me, never made an attempted to see anything from my point of view. If it disagreed with yours I'm absurd, insane, a loon, whatever you want to call it. You don't know me, you've been prejudiced against me, that's complete fact.

That said, Roman what did you mean by
Frankly, I think Gov has been getting a right good piling on well beyond anything initially deserved.
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Please clarify sir?
 
Bokeryville:
Eluvatar:
I considered warning mcmasterdonia, Romanoffia, Bokeryville, JAL, and yourself, but I decided that the moderation team probably wasn't asking me to do that.
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Uh, WTF?

From my understanding of Govindia's history, quite frankly, male players have NO right to judge how female players like myself and others respond to him. Kind of makes me wonder if I should go find another region..
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Obviously I decided that warning mcmasterdonia, yourself, JAL, or Gaspo would be ridiculous and declined to do it.
 
Gov, your evidence of "fact" is that I haven't talked to you. I haven't talked to Hitler, or Stalin, or Lenin, or bin Laden, and I hate all of them. You, I merely disdain, as you aren't in the same league as those guys. That, sir, is a fact. I'm done with this conversation, at least with you. This discussion was about moderation decisions, not about how your feelings are hurt and everyone's out to get you. I'll tell you a secret: the people who are out to get you, are out to get you because you pissed all of them off. Whether it's justified or not, you need to come to terms with the fact that this is something you did, not some grand conspiracy that singled you out at random. The common thread between all the people you claim are attacking you, is you. You're the common element. I'm sorry you see something so different from everyone else when you look in the mirror, I truly am.
 
In my humble opinion this whole drama is boring. And if it's as long as 5 years, that's very ridiculous. Just wasting everyone's time.
 
I don't think a single one of my many, many questions regarding the warnings have yet been answered and have been essentially ignored by the admin and moderation staff that made this decision. They made a vague ruling and then declined to clarify that ruling after being asked repeatedly by multiple members. This is disheartening, to say the least.
 
Alicia DiLaurentis:
In my humble opinion this whole drama is boring. And if it's as long as 5 years, that's very ridiculous. Just wasting everyone's time.
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I agree. People who have grudges against another person, whom they hardly know, on the Internet, is childish and petty. Unfortunately people still have had an axe to grind. Gaspo's attitude as is the attitude of others proves my point well.

At least when Gatesville was still around and people tried to do this to me Nevadar had the courage to tell people and stop bothering me. They at least looked after their own.

And BW, I believe they have addressed it. You supported a bill that was essentially going to legitimise persecution and banning of me, further by the fact of how you even had that in your modified oath. I told you and Chasmanthe to knock it off, you didn't listen, and that's why Flem and the moderation team took action.
 
If Moderation's decisions were based on the same delusion you appear to live under, I weep for the future of this forum.
 
Gaspo:
If Moderation's decisions were based on the same delusion you appear to live under, I weep for the future of this forum.
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There aren't any delusions I live under sir. You seem to think I'm the sole person to blame when others share an equal or greater level of fault, but you still have proved my point correct nevertheless :)
 
I keeping with the current government's spirit of openness, and in light of the questions that have been asked concerning the reasoning behind the moderator team's decision to issue warnings recently concerning flamebaiting of Govindia, here is a log of the discussion that took place between admins and moderators before the warnings were issued:



Eluvatar:
Recent Post
Govindia:
Chasmanthe:
If it so please the court.

It is socially acceptable to bully and victimize Govindia. Blue Wolf has banned Ramaba before, it's reasonable that his intention to do it again is for real. I was going on the assumption that nobody substantially objects to Blue Wolf's intentions, therefore they are considered acceptable. This undermines the values expressed in the Bill of Rights, if we as a society favour Blue Wolf's discretion over the Bill of Rights, it makes the Bill of Rights irrelevant. I am not happy with that, I want to preserve the rule of law. The way to do that is to legitimize Blue Wolf's intent.

Did I not make my intentions clear?

If Flemingovia is always right then I must be a fuckwit then. I must be wrong.
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No it is not socially acceptable to bully and victimise myself, OR ANYONE ELSE.

Get that through your thick head right now, everyone.
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I'm inclined to say that this is not worth moderation action, but a caution may be appropriate.

Thoughts?
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Great Bights Mum:
I think Gov has demonstrated remarkable restraint. This is at least the 3rd time he has asked Chas, BW et al to cut it out. One might surmise some are seeking to push Gov off the deep end.
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Belschaft:
I'm with GBM on this. I think it's fairly apparent that certain people are flamebaiting Gov, in the hope that he will get a final warning.
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flemingovia:
I am not govindia's greatest fan, but at the moment he is being subjeted to an astonishing level of deliberate provocation. It seems he only has to open his mouth, however mildly, and people are stabbing the report button or running to the courts. I am heartily sick of it, and ashamed of the behaviour of some of our community. It is like watching bear baiting.

To be honest, i would be much more inclined to slap a 20% warning on some of those who are prepared to dish it out but run to the courts sobbing about their "freedom of speech" or "Bill of Rights" whenever they are called out on it.
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flemingovia:
On further reflection, I think the mod warning levels should be a reward for good behaviour as well as a punishment for bad. Govindia has shown such restraint I propose a reduction of his warning level to zero.

I have long thought it odd that we do not have a policy for warning reduction - some warnings can remain in effect for months or even years.

IF some are trying to provoke Govindia to a forum ban, let's show them that their behaviour can have the opposite effect.
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Grosseschnauzer:
Both Cham and BW have been very explicit about their flamebaiting from what I can see. There's no question they're hoping to provoke Gov into crossing over the line one last time so he would be banned. In other contexts or with other people of targets it might be viewed differently, but in this case the aim and motive seem quite apparent.

I also think we need a 20% warning to the more explicit flamebaiters. We've been toelerant of this behavior from others, but there does seem to be an real effort to provoke, and as a moderation team I think just a caution to them won't accomplish anything, so at a minimum we need to issue warnings, along with a public statement on the matter so people know that falebaiting won't be tolerated.
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Grosseschnauzer:
Re Flem's suggestion of a warning level deduction for Gov, i'm not opposed to it, but I still think we should issue warnings to the others and post a public statement on the matter.
Doing both warning increases and reduction might get our point across even better.
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flemingovia:
If this is done, it will be seen as a continuation of your ongoing feud with Blue Wolf, rather than a legitimate moderation decision.

I want to de-escalate this issue, rather than increasing the problem.
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mcmasterdonia:
I do not agree with Flems suggestion that we should lower Govindias warning level to zero. I'm not convinced it should be lowered at all. It should however be considered at some point in the future, I don't think that now is the time.

I agree that the post mentioned by Eluvatar does not warrant moderator action. If flamebaiting is happening by other forum users, they should be warned appropriately.
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Grosseschnauzer:
flemingovia:
If this is done, it will be seen as a continuation of your ongoing feud with Blue Wolf, rather than a legitimate moderation decision.

I want to de-escalate this issue, rather than increasing the problem.
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So you are giving your political ally carte blanche to get away with whatever misbehavior he chooses to engage in on the forums?

Is that the bottom line of your comment, Flem?
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Tim:
mcmasterdonia:
I do not agree with Flems suggestion that we should lower Govindias warning level to zero. I'm not convinced it should be lowered at all. It should however be considered at some point in the future, I don't think that now is the time.

I agree that the post mentioned by Eluvatar does not warrant moderator action. If flamebaiting is happening by other forum users, they should be warned appropriately.
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I agree with McMasterdonia. It seems that people are definitely pushing to try to get Govindia that final strike. Perhaps warning increases for them?




Sorry that I haven't weighed in until now. The previous matter was one that directly concerned myself, so I felt that it would be best that I stay out of it.
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Alvino Castillon:
I apologize for my intrusion, but I would like to make a possible suggestion.

Perhaps Gov's warning rate could be reduced to 80% in a while if his behavior continues to be good? It's basically carrot and stick, except the entire carrot isn't given at once. His record should still be kept track of, and I would suggest it not be forgotten so quickly.

In regards to other warning increases, I would definitely agree that those pushing him are flamebaiting and need to receive the proper response as such.
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Kingborough:
I agree with McM. Govindia hasn't really earned a reduction in warning, but he also doesn't need to be warned about that post taking into account the way he is being riled up.

I also agree with a warning for Chasmanthe and possibly others.
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Great Bights Mum:
I support warning Chas & BW at 20%. Gov should get a verbal pat on the back for exercising restraint in this matter. I am not in favor of reducing his warning level. He has earned every one of those percentage points.
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Hileville:
Great Bights Mum:
I support warning Chas & BW at 20%. Gov should get a verbal pat on the back for exercising restraint in this matter. I am not in favor of reducing his warning level. He has earned every one of those percentage points.
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My thought exactly.
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Kiwi:
It speaks volumes about the forum moderation team when a caution is suggested to Gov for calling people thick headed etc but Flem calls people F***wits and no one says a thing. That said, I do agree entirely with Flem closing that thread, so that isn't the issue.

And for the record, I agree completely with what has been said here. If it were me I would be tempted to reduce Gov's warning level to zero just to prove a point. And then on TOP of that warn the others. I'm unconvinced that it sends the right message to Gov though.

I would submit that GBM's suggestion is probably the best one and as part of the verbal pat on the back, Gov should be told that if he continues to think about what he says before he posts, he will be rewarded accordingly. If he thinks he is able to improve his predicament, he may well learn.

I'll also submit that Gov isn't my favourite person but I've always tried to treat him fairly and equally as I would any other forum user or NPA member. What he had to undergo wasn't fair and I don't like bullies.
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Eluvatar:
I have no objection to issuing warnings for flamebaiting to the posse.

I would strongly oppose lowering Govindia's warning level below 80% at this time. I don't think it should be lowered right now. I agree entirely that it need not be raised at this time.

I'm not sure we're correctly understanding Chasmanthe's intentions, however. He tends to be a little... strange.

I think he may actually have intended to express disapproval of Blue Wolf and those who express approval of Blue Wolf's stated intention of banning Gov without cause if he gets a chance.
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Great Bights Mum:
I re-read the threads. I don't think my verbal caution was unclear, yet neither BW nor Chas seemed to get it. Chas' political intentions are not a mitigating factor when he was asked to stop.
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flemingovia:
Grosseschnauzer:
flemingovia:
If this is done, it will be seen as a continuation of your ongoing feud with Blue Wolf, rather than a legitimate moderation decision.

I want to de-escalate this issue, rather than increasing the problem.
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So you are giving your political ally carte blanche to get away with whatever misbehavior he chooses to engage in on the forums?

Is that the bottom line of your comment, Flem?
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I Don't think i can let this slide without comment.

in the first instance, Blue Wolf and I are about as far apart as it is possible to get on the NS political spectrum, so I do not see where you are coming from describing him as my "political ally"

Secondly, as I think my comments clearly show, my suggestion was based on a possible negative fallout from moderator actions, when I was trying to de-escalate the situation. That was the "bottom line". There was no hidden bias in favour or against any individuals.

There IS, however, a bottom line to this post. To save you hunting for it, Grosse, I will spell it out: Your desccent into paranoia is getting painful to watch and unedifying. When you start linking myself and Blue Wolf in your mind you begin to look absurd.
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Belschaft:
As I've said previously, I think the way Govinda is treated on these forums by some members is appalling. I would support 20% warnings for the worst offenders, and a reduction in Gov's warning level, to a level where he is no longer on moderator preview; back to 0% is however excessive.
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Grosseschnauzer:
Flem, the point of my post is that your objection to issuing any warnings for those who have been flamebaiting Gov came across as being blantantly political and a seeming exercise in being tolerant of anything that has the smell of achieving your own aims. And to criticize me about Blue Wolf when his behavior towards me has been even more outrageous than he's been toward Gov does suggest to me that you have taken his side on a lot of things.

You have been on a relently never-ending campaign to punish me for doing the right thing when you quit the region and the forum admin team at the end of your term of Delegate. I'm not going to count the number of times you've expressed, or implied, that I "stole" the root admin account from you.

And we won't get into the unilateral abuse of your admin powers in setting up your temple in the wrong place without even consulting anyone. That was an ego trip on your part that was without parallel here. Had you asked the other admin at the time (me, Elu, and Ator) beforehand at least we could have discussed it and avoid misunderstandings.

Getting back to the topic at hand, the consensus appears to be to: (1) issue 20% warning to the most visible offenders of flamebaiting Gov and (2) give a public pat on the back to Gov for now. It's not clear to me yet whether the consensus is whether we should also give him a 20% reduction.

I won't be the one to implement this, maybe Elu you should so as to keep complaints and criticisms down to a minimum.
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flemingovia:
Grosseschnauzer:
Flem, the point of my post is that your objection to issuing any warnings for those who have been flamebaiting Gov came across as being blantantly political and a seeming exercise in being tolerant of anything that has the smell of achieving your own aims. And to criticize me about Blue Wolf when his behavior towards me has been even more outrageous than he's been toward Gov does suggest to me that you have taken his side on a lot of things.

You have been on a relently never-ending campaign to punish me for doing the right thing when ypu quit the region and the forum admin team at the end of your term of Delegate. I'm not going to count the number of times you've expressed, or implied, that I "stole" the root admin account from you.

And we won't get into the unilateral abuse of your admin powers in setting up your temple in the wrong place without even consulting anyone. That was an ego trip on your part that was without parallel here. Had you asked the other admin at the time (me, Elu, and Ator) beforehand at least we could have discussed it and avoid misunderstandings.
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If you feel that way, you have the right and power to remove me as an admin, should you so decide. With Elu back you could bring McM back onto the team, should that make you feel more secure.

With that said, In the light of Proverbs 26:4 I consider this conversation to be at an end.

I am in favour of reducing Govindia's warning level, but not of increasing others. But do as you will.
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mcmasterdonia:
I think it's clear that none of that is really relevant to the matter at hand.

The consensus seems to be:

1) warn those who have been flamebaiting gov
2) Leave Govs warning as is, will review later

With slight variations of the two. I suggest we implement something soon before this flies past us, which I think it may have already.
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Eluvatar:
I will be implementing a 20% warning on everyone who I evaluate has been flamebaiting Govindia. I will post their names here when I finish reviewing.

I will not be altering Govindia's warning level either way, but I will privately inform that if Govindia avoids misbehavior his warning level will be reduced.
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:(

That's how disappointed I feel after reading these logs. This further solidifies my near belief that some people think it's socially OK to attack me, whereas for those who continue to do anything to push me completely out of this region and NS (by any means necessary), it emboldens them further.

*Sigh*
 
flemingovia:
Grosseschnauzer:
flemingovia:
If this is done, it will be seen as a continuation of your ongoing feud with Blue Wolf, rather than a legitimate moderation decision.

I want to de-escalate this issue, rather than increasing the problem.
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So you are giving your political ally carte blanche to get away with whatever misbehavior he chooses to engage in on the forums?

Is that the bottom line of your comment, Flem?
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I Don't think i can let this slide without comment.

in the first instance, Blue Wolf and I are about as far apart as it is possible to get on the NS political spectrum, so I do not see where you are coming from describing him as my "political ally"
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Oh god, I laughed.

Flem is 100% correct, by-the-by, is seems to be exactly the case. I find it interesting, in the case of my warning at least, that I was not mentioned at all for a warning until The Mutt brought it up. No one else specifically mentioned my actions in the thread and, indeed, there was no specifically given reason why I was warned other than a vague and blanket statement that I was "flamebaiting".

I can only assume that everyone who posted in either of those two threads regarding the proposed laws were also "flamebaiting" by that standard, and yet only Chas and I were warned. Very interesting.
 
Govindia:
So is my warning going to be reduced? Can I be taken off moderation / PM restriction please?
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No. You are on Permanent Moderation. Permanent means forever*.

per·ma·nent (pûrm-nnt)
adj.
1. Lasting or remaining without essential change: "the universal human yearning for something permanent, enduring, without shadow of change" (Willa Cather).
2. Not expected to change in status, condition, or place: a permanent address; permanent secretary to the president.
n.
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*Unless you are Limitless events, of course.
 
Seriously? That's a bit too much in my opinion. I've seen other people behave worse than I and have been treated leniently.
 
Govindia:
Seriously? That's a bit too much in my opinion. I've seen other people behave worse than I and have been treated leniently.
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That may or may not be the case. The fact is that verdict has been passed. mene, mene, tekel uparsin. You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.
 
flemingovia:
Govindia:
Seriously? That's a bit too much in my opinion. I've seen other people behave worse than I and have been treated leniently.
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That may or may not be the case. The fact is that verdict has been passed. mene, mene, tekel uparsin. You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.
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as far as I know there was no real decision made on this?
 
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