Motion to Recall the Delegate

[Cormac]

I motion to recall the Delegate, Eluvatar, on the grounds that he has been grossly negligent in regard to his responsibilities as Delegate of The North Pacific. Evidence:

• Eluvatar has not logged into his nation, Zemnaya Svoboda, for 13 days, endangering the security of The North Pacific.
• Eluvatar had not logged into the TNP forum for 13 days and has not been active since finally logging in on 30 October, leaving the executive government at a standstill.
• Eluvatar did not officially give the Vice Delegate or the Security Council, those who are responsible for the in-game security of the region in the absence of the Delegate, prior notice of his absence.
• Even prior to his absence, Eluvatar was inactive and his inactivity since reelection has effectively rendered the executive government of The North Pacific paralyzed.

Although the Delegate has avoided a legal vacancy by logging into the forum on 30 October, his negligence has still left The North Pacific vulnerable to security risks and the executive government of The North Pacific at a complete standstill. For these reasons I motion to recall the Delegate, Eluvatar.

 

[unibot]

However, because Eluvatar informed the Minister of Defense and at least one other person of his absence -- from which he was supposed to return on Friday -- there is a legal question as to whether or not this qualifies as "prior notice." The North Pacific can't afford to wait for two weeks from Friday for the Delegate's office to be vacated, to wait for a court decision that could take weeks or to wait until the Delegate decides he's good and ready to return. Therefore I motion for recall of the Delegate, Eluvatar.

I think this is a little unfair, he probably only contacted the Minister of Defense because he felt (understandably so) his absence would be a security threat if it was publicized.

 

[Tim]

However, because Eluvatar informed the Minister of Defense and at least one other person of his absence -- from which he was supposed to return on Friday -- there is a legal question as to whether or not this qualifies as "prior notice." The North Pacific can't afford to wait for two weeks from Friday for the Delegate's office to be vacated, to wait for a court decision that could take weeks or to wait until the Delegate decides he's good and ready to return. Therefore I motion for recall of the Delegate, Eluvatar.

I think this is a little unfair, he probably only contacted the Minister of Defense because he felt (understandably so) his absence would be a security threat if it was publicized.

Unibot, although I could agree with you there..

1) He didn't tell his Vice Delegate. I think that Vice Delegate has just a tad higher importance on the list of people that need to know that he will be absent than the Minister of Defense

2) He could have just told the Security Council. That can be kept behind closed doors.

 

[Cormac]

I think this is a little unfair, he probably only contacted the Minister of Defense because he felt (understandably so) his absence would be a security threat if it was publicized.

He still should have informed the Vice Delegate of his absence, given that the Vice Delegate is a) the person who is supposed to oversee in-game security in the Delegate's absence; and b) the chair of the Security Council. I don't have a problem with him informing the Minister of Defense but it was extremely negligent for him to not personally inform the Vice Delegate.

 

[Kingborough]

Personally I quite like Eluvatar as a person but I'm most disappointed to see him neglect the region in this way - even before he went MIA he had neglected the Ministry of Communications and the Wire, so I would have to support this even though I can't vote on it.

Additionally I cringe to think about the nightmare that will become the court case if this has to be taken to the courts because of Eluvatar defaulting on his position.

 

[unibot]

I think this is a little unfair, he probably only contacted the Minister of Defense because he felt (understandably so) his absence would be a security threat if it was publicized.

He still should have informed the Vice Delegate of his absence, given that the Vice Delegate is a) the person who is supposed to oversee in-game security in the Delegate's absence; and b) the chair of the Security Council. I don't have a problem with him informing the Minister of Defense but it was extremely negligent for him to not personally inform the Vice Delegate.

I love Tim, but I think it's a possibility Elu just doesn't trust Tim enough with that information. Bearing in mind Tim was planning on running a ticket with Durk -- Elu's the kind of personality who remembers this sort of stuff and its hard for him to get past that.

 

[Cormac]

I love Tim, but I think it's a possibility Elu just doesn't trust Tim enough with that information. Bearing in mind Tim was planning on running a ticket with Durk -- Elu's the kind of personality who remembers this sort of stuff and its hard for him to get past that.

That's too bad. The voters of The North Pacific elected Tim the Vice Delegate. Eluvatar doesn't just get to decide who's responsible for overseeing TNP's in-game security while he's absent; the voters already decided that, and they decided on Tim. If Eluvatar really didn't inform Tim because he didn't trust him, add "subverting the will of The North Pacific's voters" to the above list of reasons to recall him.

 

[peoples empire]

It is very unfortunate to see the Delegate neglect his position.

 

[New Kervoskia]

edit: nvm

 

[punk d]

Hmm...I have a question for our Min of Defense...Did Eluvatar give a reason for his absence?

As for the motion to recall...I'm on the fence. I do believe it was silly not to inform the VD directly, but another question for the Min of Defense - did Elu expressly ask you to inform the VD of Elu's absence?

Something just stinks about Elu's absence. I hope he is ok in RL, and just seems odd that he would disappear for as long as he has. IIRC, someone had Elu's phone number. If so, has anyone tried to call him in the last day or so?

 

[Mall]

From what I've heard Unibot did indeed talk to him, and Eluvatar was supposed to be back by now. Correct me if I'm wrong Unibot.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I think the fact that he told me has been blown out of proportion. Its seems to be more that someone's ego is hurt. I don't think that's the real issue here.

We had a conversation on Wed Oct 17. He told me that RL would be occupying him for the next few days, but that the articles would be done by that Friday and he would presumably be back. The only reason he told me I believe was because I insisted to know when the update would be finished.

It was an oversight that he didn't tell Tim that he would be busy with RL. But frankly saying that he is or was ignoring the voting publics choice, is absolute crap. Why the constant focus on it? Its simply political spin. If you are that desperate to recall him focus on the issues.

@Punk D Eluvatar did not expressly ask me to inform Tim. However I don't usually expect him to state, what is implied.

That's too bad. The voters of The North Pacific elected Tim the Vice Delegate. Eluvatar doesn't just get to decide who's responsible for overseeing TNP's in-game security while he's absent; the voters already decided that, and they decided on Tim. If Eluvatar really didn't inform Tim because he didn't trust him, add "subverting the will of The North Pacific's voters" to the above list of reasons to recall him.

Clutching at straws.

I have asked one other person to attempt to contact him.

 

[Cormac]

Just to be clear, I don't know if Eluvatar didn't inform Tim of his absence because he didn't trust him or if it was just an oversight nor do I really care. I was simply responding to someone else's suggestion that this might have been Eluvatar's reason. To me, it doesn't matter why he didn't inform the Vice Delegate of his absence because the bottom line is that he didn't. For that he was negligent and for that, along with the other reasons I noted in the original post, he should be recalled.

No need to make this personal mcmasterdonia. Nobody's ego is hurt -- least of all mine -- and nobody is desperate to recall Eluvatar. I'm only trying to do what's best for the security, stability and activity of The North Pacific. And please bear in mind that you didn't seem to have any objection to motioning to recall him yesterday, or at least if you did you didn't voice it.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I have no opposition to the recall. I only have opposition to the idea that it was an intentional, disregard of the voters choice for VD. Which I would consider completely out of character for Eluvatar, and to be unjustified criticism.

According to JAL, he spoke to him on Skype yesterday. He is finishing off some RL things this weekend, and shall be back after the weekend.

 

[unibot]

I only have opposition to the idea that it was an intentional, disregard of the voters choice for VD. Which I would consider completely out of character for Eluvatar, and to be unjustified criticism.

I only suggested it as a possibility because he's done it before (and rather appropriately in my opinion): Blue Wolf as delegate.

 

[unibot]

From what I've heard Unibot did indeed talk to him, and Eluvatar was supposed to be back by now. Correct me if I'm wrong Unibot.

I'm -fairly- sure he said he was going to be back on more often, but we were skyping and thus I have no logs of what he said exactly.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

I only suggested it as a possibility because he's done it before (and rather appropriately in my opinion): Blue Wolf as delegate.

Ah, but you see, I'm a rather special case. A Raider had never openly held TNP as an elected delegate before and certain people were more than eager to get rid of me. You were amongst them, if I do recall, Unibot.

 

[Flemingovia]

TNP seems altogether too swift to play the recall card - often on ideological or personal grounds rather than any other. That is why I did not support the Blue Wolf recalls and I do not support this at this time.

When I was delelgate (first term) there was a period I knew I would be unable to access the net for a period of about six days. On that occasion I chose simply to disappear rather than draw attention to the issue. I decided to do that for security reasons. I figured that if those who might wish TNP harm could be kept from noticing for even three of those days, the region was safe. I was right.

What I am saying is, I am not going to judge Elu harshly until I know the reasons for his absence and his lack of notification. And I am certainly not going to vote for a recall until he has been absent without any notice for two weeks, as the law states.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

Eluvatar has, on other occasions, gone absent without prior public notice, and as I understand it, he has done so based upon a concern that public disclosure might create a security risk.
This isn't the first time Elu has had to prioritize RL matters and be away from the game and the forums. Although I would prefer he let as least more than one person know, at least he let someone on the Council of Five know and that's better than average.
Eluvatar's immediate predecessor as Delegate was not communicative about his absences, either.
When I was Delegate, I did give public notice, but each person is different in that regard.
I think the motion is premature. I'm also concerned about political opportunism about this motion. Yes, I did propose a motion on recall during Blue Wolf's term, but and this is important, it was discussed before the motion was presented, and it was for a longer absence than has been the case on this current absence. Hence, my belief that this motion is premature.

 

[Mall]

Just a question here: How hard is it to simply log onto your nation to at the very least give the appearance of not being gone? Anyone can simply look at this nation and figure it out at this point.

 

[Flemingovia]

Mall, I would have thought not hard; but I do not know Elu's situation. Perhaps he is away from his computer? Perhaps he is on spiritual retreat in a trappist monastery where computers are not allowed? Perhaps he is camping miles from an internet hub? Perhaps he is in hospital? Perhaps he is on a nuclear sub running silent beneath the arctic ice floes?

Under normal circumstances, logging in is not difficult. Perhaps it is something Elu will explain when he gets back.

 

[Reginald Carmichael]

I could definitely see that if you are a way from a computer for an extended amount of time and you don't have a smart phone it would be hard to log into your nation. Even if you have a smart phone, if you don't have reception you can't log in.

 

[Mall]

Mall, I would have thought not hard; but I do not know Elu's situation. Perhaps he is away from his computer? Perhaps he is on spiritual retreat in a trappist monastery where computers are not allowed? Perhaps he is camping miles from an internet hub? Perhaps he is in hospital? Perhaps he is on a nuclear sub running silent beneath the arctic ice floes?

Under normal circumstances, logging in is not difficult. Perhaps it is something Elu will explain when he gets back.

I initially considered this as a possibility, but the fact that someone mentioned chatting with him on Skype would lead me to believe that perhaps he could have at the very least logged into his nation. The issue I have with waiting to hear his side of the story is that I don't know when we're going to be hearing it. I suppose we might as well wait it out to the two week point assuming no further contact is made, and I hope that the SC is keeping vigilant watch over potential threats.

 

[Govindia]

I support this motion.

If you have time to chat with someone on Skype etc, you have time to log into your nation or post a quick heads up here or to the Vice Delegate.

I motion this goes to the Voting Floor

 

[Flemingovia]

I strongly oppose this move to vote. A motion to recall a delegate is perhaps the most important thing a regional assembly can do, and to attempt to rush it to a vote after less than 24 hours debate is infantile and unseemly - unsurprisingly so, given the source.

For goodness sake, we allow a week's debate for the most trivial of things. To move to a vote now would be plain wrong, and i hope the speaker recognises this.

 

[St George]

Moving to a vote when barely half a dozen members have had an opportunity to speak about this issue would be a very grave error.

Whilst it is unfortunate that Eluvatar is gone, a recall of the delegate should have the maximum allowed time for debate, anything else is nothing short of disgraceful.

 

[Tim]

I would agree.

It is too soon to move to vote.

 

[Haor Chall]

Arguably the discussion of this situation started five days ago in the thread you started Flem. So I can't see that it's being particularly rushed so far.

As I said in the other thread, I'm afraid to say that I haven't really noticed Eluvatars absence - much as was mentioned in the OP, I believe the Delegate hasn't been doing a particularly effective or noticable job since the start of the current term and combined with the current situation I think that does make a good reason for recall and therefore support this motion.

 

[Scandigrad]

While I would support a motion to recall him from the position of the Minister of Communication at this point in time, I am skeptical to back a recall vote as of this moment, especially considering RL circumstances that we may or may not be aware of.

 

[Cormac]

Despite the seconding of this motion, as its author I would ask the Speaker not to move it to a vote at this time. I agree that more discussion is needed.

However, and this is important, I don't think we can afford to wait indefinitely. Even if Eluvatar's intention was to prevent his absence from being conspicuous by not publicly announcing it, as Mall has pointed out anyone can see that he is absent by simply looking at his nation. Obviously, the cat's out of the bag. His absence is a security risk and every day that it continues is an increased threat to the region's security. So while I agree that there should be more discussion let's bear in mind that he has been gone for 12 days. I'm not inclined to wait any longer than the two week point before moving this to a vote.

In regard to the accusation of political opportunism, it's baseless. I have told multiple people that I have no intention of running for Delegate if an election is called to replace Eluvatar should he be recalled. But let me say publicly: I have zero intention of running for Delegate. That's not what this is about. This is about a Delegate who has been absent for almost two weeks and an executive government that has been at a virtual standstill since Eluvatar was reelected. There's nothing personal about it; in fact, I like Eluvatar on a personal level. But this absence and stagnation isn't good for the region.

To be clear, while I hope Eluvatar does return -- and soon -- and while I hope he's all right and everything in his RL is all right, I intend to move forward with this recall whether he's here or not unless he has very good explanations for his prolonged absence and failure to notify the Vice Delegate.

 

[Govindia]

Despite the seconding of this motion, as its author I would ask the Speaker not to move it to a vote at this time. I agree that more discussion is needed.

However, and this is important, I don't think we can afford to wait indefinitely. Even if Eluvatar's intention was to prevent his absence from being conspicuous by not publicly announcing it, as Mall has pointed out anyone can see that he is absent by simply looking at his nation. Obviously, the cat's out of the bag. His absence is a security risk and every day that it continues is an increased threat to the region's security. So while I agree that there should be more discussion let's bear in mind that he has been gone for 12 days. I'm not inclined to wait any longer than the two week point before moving this to a vote.

In regard to the accusation of political opportunism, it's baseless. I have told multiple people that I have no intention of running for Delegate if an election is called to replace Eluvatar should he be recalled. But let me say publicly: I have zero intention of running for Delegate. That's not what this is about. This is about a Delegate who has been absent for almost two weeks and an executive government that has been at a virtual standstill since Eluvatar was reelected. There's nothing personal about it; in fact, I like Eluvatar on a personal level. But this absence and stagnation isn't good for the region.

To be clear, while I hope Eluvatar does return -- and soon -- and while I hope he's all right and everything in his RL is all right, I intend to move forward with this recall whether he's here or not unless he has very good explanations for his prolonged absence and failure to notify the Vice Delegate.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

If Elu does not return soon, there will be no need for a recall. I say we wait until that time frame comes to pass, if he doesn't return, we have mandatory elections anyway.

 

[Kingborough]

If he doesn't turn up and we don't recall him, we will have a nightmarish court case in all odds between his supporters and his opposition.

[Speaker hat on] I will give this 48 hours further discussion before it is moved to a vote. Thank you.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

A nightmarish court case? I assure you we won't, the law is clear.

 

[Flemingovia]

The law is clear? Good god, man, this is TNP - home of the loophole and the poorly drafted legislation*.

I believe there is a certain ambiguity around whether Eluvatar went walkabout "without prior notice". He certainly told McM - one of the Council of Five. Now others may wish that he had informed the Vice Delegate (perhaps there were issues of trust there?) or the Security council, or the whole Council of Five, but a legal case could be made that he did not disappear "without prior notifice." Sadly the law does not specify to whom this prior notice must be given. There's your grounds for challenge.

unless you, as a justice, have already pre-judged the issue before evidence is presented?









*apart from the Flemingovian constitution, which is perfect.

 

[Kingborough]

Yes, Flemingovia has outlined my worries perfectly. Not to mention if the court rules against one group I am sure they'll immediately try to change the laws to fit their own opinion which will cause more of a stink.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

Well let me go grab the law.

8. A "vacancy" in an office occurs when the holder of it resigns, is removed, or abandons it . An office is abandoned when its holder does not log onto the regional forums for two weeks without prior notice. Vacancies are filled through a special election unless a it cannot be completed prior to the beginning of the appropriate scheduled election cycle. Pending an election, however, a vacancy may be temporarily filled as provided by the Constitution, this Legal Code, or a rule adopted by the appropriate body.

Unless someone can convincingly show that prior notice was given, I don't think there is much room for argument, although my fellow Justices might disagree, there are three of us after all.

So yes, we might have to rule on what counts as "prior notice" but I don't think our definition will including "telling one guy you might not be around for a few days in an off-hand conversation". Just putting that one out there.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I don't know.

I mean, it's a possibility he is still going to return. I'm not sure how bad his area has been affected by the storm though, so that might be an issue to consider.

 

[Haor Chall]

Of course, if in the next roughly 36 (?) hours, Elu simply logs into the forum - doesn't even have to actually post, or doing anything - then that disappears as an issue anyway. I wouldn't holding your breath.

 

[Flemingovia]

Well let me go grab the law.

8. A "vacancy" in an office occurs when the holder of it resigns, is removed, or abandons it . An office is abandoned when its holder does not log onto the regional forums for two weeks without prior notice. Vacancies are filled through a special election unless a it cannot be completed prior to the beginning of the appropriate scheduled election cycle. Pending an election, however, a vacancy may be temporarily filled as provided by the Constitution, this Legal Code, or a rule adopted by the appropriate body.

Unless someone can convincingly show that prior notice was given, I don't think there is much room for argument, although my fellow Justices might disagree, there are three of us after all.

So yes, we might have to rule on what counts as "prior notice" but I don't think our definition will including "telling one guy you might not be around for a few days in an off-hand conversation". Just putting that one out there.

you see, that is the problem right there. "Prior notice" is not defined. You say ""telling one guy you might not be around for a few days in an off-hand conversation" does not count as Prior notice. Twice you say that you do not "think" this.

But a justice is not supposed to make up law on the fly. My question is, what legal basis you have for that definition of prior notice? The fact is the legal code offers no guidance on this.

I maintain that informing a member of the Council of Five (not just "one guy." You make it sound as if he just picked a person off the street) counts as giving prior notice.

Perhaps Grosse ought to enlighten us. I think he wrote that original clause.