A Formal Complaint from the Government of Equilism

Gulliver:
Much as I hate to be siding with Gov, I'm finding this silly. Having now actually read the comments in question, the context in which they were made makes it pretty clear they were insincere and intended to be humorous. I didn't laugh, but all that proves Gov is guilty of is having a bad sense of humor.

Also, even though Gov's signature was outdated, in the opening post Asta refers to him as "former ambassador to Equilism" (emphasis added). They're clearly aware that Gov's being in Equilism is no longer officially sanctioned by TNP.

Now, the argument that since he's a member of the diplomatic corps he in general should observe certain decorum holds weight, but again it seems to me that what Gov said is being blown out of proportion just because Gov said it. I'm not a fan of his either, and as usual he's really not helping himself by being indignant and self-righteous about the accusations against him, it would still be a worrying precedent as Mahaj pointed out.
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Again, I point out Gulliver's response.
 
Govindia:
I personally believe Equilism's administration is doing this as a personal scapegoating / witch hunt.
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As Whamabama's announcement earlier in this thread made clear, the account was banned due to initial concerns of impersonation raised by Attorney General Grosseschnauzer that turned into alarm when you yourself called his concerns reasonable.

Attorney General, would you accept the statements made by Govindia in this thread as evidence of identity? That would greatly ease our minds.

They would not have made a fuss if someone else made this type of joke, they would have had a free pass.
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Sir, you appear to be falling under the sway of of a counterfactual tu quoque fallacy.

Someone else did not make these statements, and your assertions of our hypothetical response to hypothetical statements made by a hypothetical other are a red herring that distract from the issue at hand - an issue composed solely and entirely of the statements you did make.
 
Empress Astarial:
Govindia:
I personally believe Equilism's administration is doing this as a personal scapegoating / witch hunt.
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As Whamabama's announcement earlier in this thread made clear, the account was banned due to initial concerns of impersonation raised by Attorney General Grosseschnauzer that turned into alarm when you yourself called his concerns reasonable.

Attorney General, would you accept the statements made by Govindia in this thread as evidence of identity? That would greatly ease our minds.

They would not have made a fuss if someone else made this type of joke, they would have had a free pass.
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Sir, you appear to be falling under the sway of of a counterfactual tu quoque fallacy.

Someone else did not make these statements, and your assertions of our hypothetical response to hypothetical statements made by a hypothetical other are a red herring that distract from the issue at hand - an issue composed solely and entirely of the statements you did make.
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No it's not. Gulliver pointed out this above clearly and this verifies my point. If someone else made a similar joke like I did, you guys would have given him a free pass, as has been done before. I am being singled out for persecution because it is me, and it is being done by those who have had a clear personal axe to grind from years-old grudges (which should not happen) and an anti-Govindia bias.

And technically Tim started this mess by posting this announcement in our embassy making it look like the government of TNP had sanctioned its release.
 
Govindia:
Empress Astarial:
They would not have made a fuss if someone else made this type of joke, they would have had a free pass.
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Sir, you appear to be falling under the sway of of a counterfactual tu quoque fallacy.

Someone else did not make these statements, and your assertions of our hypothetical response to hypothetical statements made by a hypothetical other are a red herring that distract from the issue at hand - an issue composed solely and entirely of the statements you did make.
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No it's not. Gulliver pointed out this above clearly and this verifies my point. If someone else made a similar joke like I did, you guys would have given him a free pass, as has been done before
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Of course it is. You have established a counterfactual situation - somebody else making these statements - in order to claim that Equilism would act in a particular way, and that that way would be hypocritical. This is the counterfactual tu quoque.

Without a factual counterexample, any accusations of hypocrisy and inconsistency are necessarily fallacious.

I am being singled out for persecution because it is me, and it is being done by those who have had a clear personal axe to grind from years-old grudges (which should not happen) and an anti-Govindia bias.
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Do bear in mind, sir, that there has been no persecution. Equilism has neither requested nor demanded administrative or legal action be taken against you in The North Pacific, and, due to our lack of desire to cause an escalation, your comments within the embassy received three unofficial warnings only. The ban was, as we have said, placed due to concerns of impersonation and a sincere desire to safeguard your reputation from a potential threat. Once forum administration is satisfied that there has been no impersonation, I'm sure they will lift that protection.
 
Empress Astarial:
Govindia:
Empress Astarial:
They would not have made a fuss if someone else made this type of joke, they would have had a free pass.
Click to expand...

Sir, you appear to be falling under the sway of of a counterfactual tu quoque fallacy.

Someone else did not make these statements, and your assertions of our hypothetical response to hypothetical statements made by a hypothetical other are a red herring that distract from the issue at hand - an issue composed solely and entirely of the statements you did make.
Click to expand...


No it's not. Gulliver pointed out this above clearly and this verifies my point. If someone else made a similar joke like I did, you guys would have given him a free pass, as has been done before
Click to expand...

Of course it is. You have established a counterfactual situation - somebody else making these statements - in order to claim that Equilism would act in a particular way, and that that way would be hypocritical. This is the counterfactual tu quoque.

Without a factual counterexample, any accusations of hypocrisy and inconsistency are necessarily fallacious.

I am being singled out for persecution because it is me, and it is being done by those who have had a clear personal axe to grind from years-old grudges (which should not happen) and an anti-Govindia bias.
Click to expand...

Do bear in mind, sir, that there has been no persecution. Equilism has neither requested nor demanded administrative or legal action be taken against you in The North Pacific, and, due to our lack of desire to cause an escalation, your comments within the embassy received three unofficial warnings only. The ban was, as we have said, placed due to concerns of impersonation and a sincere desire to safeguard your reputation from a potential threat. Once forum administration is satisfied that there has been no impersonation, I'm sure they will lift that protection.
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I said people in the past have made similar jokes and have not been punished for it or demanded an apology for it. It is in my view hypocritical otherwise.

Once again, I quote Gulliver's post:

Gulliver
Sep 4 2012, 05:30 PM
Much as I hate to be siding with Gov, I'm finding this silly. Having now actually read the comments in question, the context in which they were made makes it pretty clear they were insincere and intended to be humorous. I didn't laugh, but all that proves Gov is guilty of is having a bad sense of humor.

Also, even though Gov's signature was outdated, in the opening post Asta refers to him as "former ambassador to Equilism" (emphasis added). They're clearly aware that Gov's being in Equilism is no longer officially sanctioned by TNP.

Now, the argument that since he's a member of the diplomatic corps he in general should observe certain decorum holds weight, but again it seems to me that what Gov said is being blown out of proportion just because Gov said it. I'm not a fan of his either, and as usual he's really not helping himself by being indignant and self-righteous about the accusations against him, it would still be a worrying precedent as Mahaj pointed out.
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Please get me those assurances in writing.

And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
 
Govindia:
Once again, I quote Gulliver's post:
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Surprisingly, I have read Gulliver's post. It suffers from exactly the same fallacy.

Please get me those assurances in writing.
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You have my writing.

And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
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As ambassador from Equilism to The North Pacific, my duty is to represent the official position of my government to the best of my knowledge and ability. Negotiating with, and especially on the behalf of an individual is outside of the scope of my responsibilities.
 
Empress Astarial:
Do bear in mind, sir, that there has been no persecution. Equilism has neither requested nor demanded administrative or legal action be taken against you in The North Pacific, and, due to our lack of desire to cause an escalation, your comments within the embassy received three unofficial warnings only. The ban was, as we have said, placed due to concerns of impersonation and a sincere desire to safeguard your reputation from a potential threat. Once forum administration is satisfied that there has been no impersonation, I'm sure they will lift that protection.
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With all due respect, for someone who found the Attorney General listing his lack of proof that Nivogal is Govindia among his reasons for not prosecuting to be ridiculous, it's somewhat bizarre to see you claim confusion on that count.

There is no disputing that Nivogal is Govindia. Govindia has at no point claimed that he is not Nivogal. The Attorney General has not even claimed that, stating only that for a formal court procedure that would have to be proven, among their many other listed reasons for not prosecuting Govindia in The North Pacific.

Edit: It's none of our concern if you choose to ban Nivogal (Govindia). Please don't drag us into it though.
 
Eluvatar:
With all due respect, for someone who found the Attorney General listing his lack of proof that Nivogal is Govindia among his reasons for not prosecuting to be ridiculous, it's somewhat bizarre to see you claim confusion on that count.
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My personal expressed opinion - which you happen to be correct about - does not equate to the opinion of the Equilism government and forum administration.

In a thread of this nature, my duty is to represent official position, not my own personal one. Personally, I found the idea ludicrous. Officially, Equilism was concerned.
 
Empress Astarial:
Govindia:
Once again, I quote Gulliver's post:
Click to expand...

Surprisingly, I have read Gulliver's post. It suffers from exactly the same fallacy.

Please get me those assurances in writing.
Click to expand...

You have my writing.

And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
Click to expand...

As ambassador from Equilism to The North Pacific, my duty is to represent the official position of my government to the best of my knowledge and ability. Negotiating with, and especially on the behalf of an individual is outside of the scope of my responsibilities.
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Well you can send my request that I sent you via PM to your government, can you not?
 
Empress Astarial:
And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
Click to expand...

As ambassador from Equilism to The North Pacific, my duty is to represent the official position of my government to the best of my knowledge and ability. Negotiating with, and especially on the behalf of an individual is outside of the scope of my responsibilities.
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Actually that is your job as an ambassador, as a representative of your government, to assist with the negotiations.

Please respond back to my PM and/or convey my PM and responses to your government. Please and thank you.
 
Govindia:
Empress Astarial:
And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
Click to expand...

As ambassador from Equilism to The North Pacific, my duty is to represent the official position of my government to the best of my knowledge and ability. Negotiating with, and especially on the behalf of an individual is outside of the scope of my responsibilities.
Click to expand...
Actually that is your job as an ambassador, as a representative of your government, to assist with the negotiations.
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Yes - negotiations between Equilism and The North Pacific. I am not the ambassador to or from an individual.

The matter of your ban is an issue between Equilism and TNP, and has thus been relayed. The issue of your membership is not.
 
Empress Astarial:
Govindia:
Empress Astarial:
And I have sent you a PM, so I look forward to your response.
Click to expand...

As ambassador from Equilism to The North Pacific, my duty is to represent the official position of my government to the best of my knowledge and ability. Negotiating with, and especially on the behalf of an individual is outside of the scope of my responsibilities.
Click to expand...
Actually that is your job as an ambassador, as a representative of your government, to assist with the negotiations.
Click to expand...

Yes - negotiations between Equilism and The North Pacific. I am not the ambassador to or from an individual.

The matter of your ban is an issue between Equilism and TNP, and has thus been relayed. The issue of your membership is not.
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membership?
 
I think it might be time to close this thread. Eluvatar has issued his response, and as he pointed out what actions Equilism's admin team want to pursue against Gov is their business now.
 
Equilism thanks Delegate Eluvatar for his consideration, and for his confirmation that the offending statements do not represent the opinion of The North Pacific government.

We do formally assure The North Pacific that any statements made by a citizen of Equilism on our own forums shall be considered an internal matter, regardless of that citizen's other involvements, unless the statements are explicitly stated to represent another region. And we also assure our North Pacifican friends that any offense caused in our embassy with The North Pacific will be taken as seriously as you have taken our concern.

With warmth and fondness,
tarricoe, Chief Minister
and so on, and so forth

---

We have no objection to closing this thread.
 
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