Motion to Recall Grosse

I support this motion as I was actually considering it before this was tabled by Punk D, as Mcmasterdonia knows well and can tell you.

I think not only has Grosse's conduct been extremely tardy, alone deserving him this recall, but he has misused his position - including threatening BW with administrative action for bumping a complaint that he was ignoring and then promptly deleted that threat with his reorganization of the AG's office, as well as failing to resign from a case where he has bias and should not be presiding.

I can understand real life commitments, but in that case Grosse needs to resign.
 
Blue Wolf II:
I second the motion to vote.

I find it ironic that someone who put me up for recall twice when I was delegate for inactivity would now scoff and act insulted when Punk D does the same under near identical circumstances. Apparently it's only acceptable when it's happening to someone else. I find that to be a glaring double standard and show a distinct lack of honesty.
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Without seeking to comment on the recall, which I neither support nor oppose, it's not entirely the same. Being delegate is a much more important role with many more risks to the region if you go absent for a period.
 
For the sake of argument, can't one say that the Attorney General position is essential to the proper execution of justice?

As a result of the delay in prosecution of -T-h-o-r- and Sheep Face the two nations have ceased to exist before anything could be done to them.

The delay in prosecution of JAL for his TNP Freedom Fighters shenanigans is also harmful to the proper functioning of the region, surely.

That said, it's not enough to cause us to enter into civil disorder.
 
madjack:
Without seeking to comment on the recall, which I neither support nor oppose, it's not entirely the same. Being delegate is a much more important role with many more risks to the region if you go absent for a period.
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You mistake my words. I'm saying the circumstances are similar, not the positions. All the same, I agree with Kingborough 100% about the abuses of power. It isn't simply tardiness, that alone is completely forgivable, it's also serious questions regarding the morality and legality of some of the AG's more recent actions.

Delaying cases which you have a personal interest in and then not excusing yourself when those personal interests are brought to light is not behavior which reflects positively upon the position of Attorney General.
 
Blue Wolf, I'll tell you want, if you resign first from the Court, then I'll resign from the AG's office. But you have to do so first and publicly.

One thing y'all are forgetting is that the constant b.s. being posted by BW delayed things, and his interference while sitting as a justice on another first-in-time and first-in-line matter was an abuse of his office.

So if he goes, then I'll go. And only if he goes first.

And he can expect a recall motion, as a justice, over that abuse of his power, and others.
 
So if he goes, then I'll go. And only if he goes first.
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Umm. In maturity stakes, that ranks right up there alongside "if I dont get those sweeties I will hold my breath until I turn purple."
 
To be fair to Grosseschnauzer, the case that Blue Wolf is irate about Grosseschnauzer delaying could not have moved forward until the conclusion of the special election for Associate Justice.
 
Perhaps, but then again when I first took up a claim there was no need for a Special Election. It was allowed to linger for so long that the elections were then needed. Then it was allowed to rot even further after the elections were complete. Even now the matter seems to be going absolutely nowhere, fast.
 
Eluvatar:
To be fair to Grosseschnauzer, the case that Blue Wolf is irate about Grosseschnauzer delaying could not have moved forward until the conclusion of the special election for Associate Justice.
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And when that election was complete he didn't move.

Prior to that election being complete, I asked pertinent questions regarding the expediency of his office related to the election of the Associate Justice. I believe those questions are still unanswered last I looked. So the AJ issue is a non-issue, in my opinion because Grosse didn't act after the election of the AJ nor address the specific concerns of an RA member related to the situation.

Grosse is trying to force out BW as a justice which seems irrelevant to this motion. If Grosse wishes to present a motion against BW, that's his prerogative, but has nothing to do with this motion.

I would like to ask the Speaker to bring this motion to a vote as it has been seconded and I have no intention of withdrawing the motion.

There has been plenty of discussion and I believe it's time to vote on the matter.
 
Eluvatar:
For the sake of argument, can't one say that the Attorney General position is essential to the proper execution of justice?

As a result of the delay in prosecution of -T-h-o-r- and Sheep Face the two nations have ceased to exist before anything could be done to them.

The delay in prosecution of JAL for his TNP Freedom Fighters shenanigans is also harmful to the proper functioning of the region, surely.

That said, it's not enough to cause us to enter into civil disorder.
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Wait, what did JAL do now?
 
I meant 24 hours since the motion for a vote proper was introduced, not since the thread was started, if that's the confusion.
 
Right. That would be a whole 36 hours from proposal to voting.

I served as AJ one time. You couldn't pay me to do it again. It is extremely time-consuming. It's almost guaranteed someone is going to be unhappy with you. One can only hope that "someone" isn't noisy and insolent about it.

As far as the welfare of TNP is concerned, I don't believe there is a more competent nation to fill the position. Consider how many nations have been successfully prosecuted in this region. Not many. It's hard to prove a case here. In my opinion, having Schnauzers as AG gives the citizens of TNP the best chance of getting real criminals convicted for the damage they do to society.
 
I'd agree with you GBM but he hasn't prosecuted JAL for his recent actions even given the complaint filed July 24th and additional evidence submitted August 1st and 17th.

I'm going to hold my vote for a bit, to see what happens these next few days.

I'm disappointed also with how he has denied me the chance to clear my name. I would have liked him to appoint a competent Special Prosecutor who could either drop the complaint appropriately for actual reasons or face my defense in court allowing my name to be cleared there.

Edit: On further consideration I don't believe I can ethically do anything but abstain.
 
The argument is that he's using his powers to influence cases he has a personal interest in, specifically by stalling them or trying to dismiss them through less than honest means. The evidence is plastered all over the forum containing the case itself and a good deal of it is also presented here.

I'd say that argument is pretty strong.
 
Blue Wolf II:
The argument is that he's using his powers to influence cases he has a personal interest in, specifically by stalling them or trying to dismiss them through less than honest means. The evidence is plastered all over the forum containing the case itself and a good deal of it is also presented here.

I'd say that argument is pretty strong.
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the evidence for your personal vendetta and grudge against gross is stronger and is also available all over forum
 
Eluvatar:
I'd agree with you GBM but he hasn't prosecuted JAL for his recent actions even given the complaint filed July 24th and additional evidence submitted August 1st and 17th.

I'm going to hold my vote for a bit, to see what happens these next few days.

I'm disappointed also with how he has denied me the chance to clear my name. I would have liked him to appoint a competent Special Prosecutor who could either drop the complaint appropriately for actual reasons or face my defense in court allowing my name to be cleared there.

Edit: On further consideration I don't believe I can ethically do anything but abstain.
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WHat did JAL do now?

And BW, you never really answered my question when I asked you about it.
 
One thing some of you don't seem to understand is this -- that with the time schedules now built into the legal code as well as the Court rules, the prosecutorial case had better be sound and airtight before an indictment is filed, or it shouldn't be filed at all.
What people think is sufficient, often isn't, which is why cases never get completed in TNP.
If a case is insufficient and not going to win, like any prosecutor worth his salt, I am not going to file it.
As to the JAL thingy, the evidence sent to me privately needs some conversion so it can be possible to see how it clearly and logically fits into the rest, and determine exactly who should be named in the indictment. I'm trying to get all the ducks in a row first. The other aspect is that the other things had to be resolved, which they have based on past precedent, and I'll leave it at that for now. I won't go along with two month examinations in a trial thread because the testimony and evidence isn't ready beforehand; a practice that other Attorney Generals have followed and which I've always been critical of. So I am practicing what I have always preached about case preparation; if you just want a circus, then feel free to elect a clown as the next AG in November.
 
Govindia:
Please look what i asked you earlier and address my questions. Thank you kindly.
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Yeah, no. It has nothing to do with this recall. If you'd like to start a thread about how awesome I was as delegate I'd be more than happy to respond to you in full there.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Govindia:
Please look what i asked you earlier and address my questions. Thank you kindly.
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Yeah, no. It has nothing to do with this recall. If you'd like to start a thread about how awesome I was as delegate I'd be more than happy to respond to you in full there.
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:worship: :console:
 
Grosseschnauzer:
One thing some of you don't seem to understand is this -- that with the time schedules now built into the legal code as well as the Court rules, the prosecutorial case had better be sound and airtight before an indictment is filed, or it shouldn't be filed at all.
What people think is sufficient, often isn't, which is why cases never get completed in TNP.
If a case is insufficient and not going to win, like any prosecutor worth his salt, I am not going to file it.
As to the JAL thingy, the evidence sent to me privately needs some conversion so it can be possible to see how it clearly and logically fits into the rest, and determine exactly who should be named in the indictment. I'm trying to get all the ducks in a row first. The other aspect is that the other things had to be resolved, which they have based on past precedent, and I'll leave it at that for now. I won't go along with two month examinations in a trial thread because the testimony and evidence isn't ready beforehand; a practice that other Attorney Generals have followed and which I've always been critical of. So I am practicing what I have always preached about case preparation; if you just want a circus, then feel free to elect a clown as the next AG in November.
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A coherent explanation, perhaps, but no - this is not a sufficient explanation. Not becuase of anything concerning the current cases or the current AG, but to do with our system.

Included in Grosse's post is this sentence.

What people think is sufficient, often isn't, which is why cases never get completed in TNP.
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Grosse is quite correct. In almost ten years in TNP I cannot remember a single criminal prosecution that has led to a successful conviction. Not one.

This is surely a sign that the system itself is in need of a new approach. We have tinkered with rules of evidence etc, but this just seems to have made things worse.

What I see now is that, until November at least, the AG's office is a massive dam across the river, and nothing is easily going to get throught to court.

I would welcome a discussion on a new approach that is less unworkable. I looked a lot at our rules during the JAL trial and I concluded that for an online game like NS they were far too complex, cumbersome and byzantine. Great for folks who love technicalities, loopholes and points of order, but pretty crap for those of us who just want justice to be served.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Govindia:
Please look what i asked you earlier and address my questions. Thank you kindly.
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Yeah, no. It has nothing to do with this recall. If you'd like to start a thread about how awesome I was as delegate I'd be more than happy to respond to you in full there.
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Yea it does.

I have never seen you ever support anything Grosse has done, nor have I ever even seen you address him properly, and I feel this recall you support is you furthering your personal grudge with him.

You seem to have a lot of grudges with people. It's pretty childish and you should knock it off in my opinion.
 
flemingovia:
Grosseschnauzer:
One thing some of you don't seem to understand is this -- that with the time schedules now built into the legal code as well as the Court rules, the prosecutorial case had better be sound and airtight before an indictment is filed, or it shouldn't be filed at all.
What people think is sufficient, often isn't, which is why cases never get completed in TNP.
If a case is insufficient and not going to win, like any prosecutor worth his salt, I am not going to file it.
As to the JAL thingy, the evidence sent to me privately needs some conversion so it can be possible to see how it clearly and logically fits into the rest, and determine exactly who should be named in the indictment. I'm trying to get all the ducks in a row first. The other aspect is that the other things had to be resolved, which they have based on past precedent, and I'll leave it at that for now. I won't go along with two month examinations in a trial thread because the testimony and evidence isn't ready beforehand; a practice that other Attorney Generals have followed and which I've always been critical of. So I am practicing what I have always preached about case preparation; if you just want a circus, then feel free to elect a clown as the next AG in November.
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A coherent explanation, perhaps, but no - this is not a sufficient explanation. Not becuase of anything concerning the current cases or the current AG, but to do with our system.

Included in Grosse's post is this sentence.

What people think is sufficient, often isn't, which is why cases never get completed in TNP.
Click to expand...

Grosse is quite correct. In almost ten years in TNP I cannot remember a single criminal prosecution that has led to a successful conviction. Not one.

This is surely a sign that the system itself is in need of a new approach. We have tinkered with rules of evidence etc, but this just seems to have made things worse.

What I see now is that, until November at least, the AG's office is a massive dam across the river, and nothing is easily going to get throught to court.

I would welcome a discussion on a new approach that is less unworkable. I looked a lot at our rules during the JAL trial and I concluded that for an online game like NS they were far too complex, cumbersome and byzantine. Great for folks who love technicalities, loopholes and points of order, but pretty crap for those of us who just want justice to be served.
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The criminal justice system should be judged by how successful it operates, not on how many convictions it delivers.
 
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