The Sacagawea Alliance

Eluvatar

Eluvatar

TNPer
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Pronouns
he/him/his
TNP Nation
Zemnaya Svoboda
Discord
Eluvatar#8517
Proposal for Consideration:
Sacagawea Alliance

Recognizing our ancient bonds of friendship, transcending our squabble of 2008, the free regions of Equilism and The North Pacific seek to again have fun, foster inter-regional cooperation, and oppose tyranny in a new alliance.

1. The parties to this treaty are Equilism and The North Pacific.
2. The parties will recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty as the sole legitimate governments of their respective regions.
3. The parties will not undermine one another through subterfuge, espionage, invasion, or any other means.
4. The parties will defend one another to the best of their ability on the request of the other party.
5. The parties will share any intelligence relevant to the defense of the other party.
6. A new treaty between the parties may override this treaty.
7. If a party to this treaty acts in willful non-compliance to this treaty, or attacks an ally of the other party, then the other party may immediately terminate this treaty and/or all diplomatic relations, and may issue a statement detailing the transgression.
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Submitted for consideration by the Regional Assembly by the Council of Five. Comments and suggestions welcome!
 
Eh. I'm indifferent. Leaning for it, since it probably won't be a raid target anytime soon :P
 
speaking as someone with a passing knowledge of TNP history I have to ask: is this a joke? after all, our last "inter regional cooperation" with Equilism went so well, didn't it?

Nay.
 
flemingovia:
speaking as someone with a passing knowledge of TNP history I have to ask: is this a joke? after all, our last "inter regional cooperation" with Equilism went so well, didn't it?

Nay.
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I raised similar concerns. I think though its important that this be considered an opportunity to reconcile, we regularly talk to prominent Equilism citizens in #tnp, and Westwind now posts his newspaper here. Its not to say forgive and forget, I for one was brought up to forgive, but never forget. It is however, an opportunity for our regions to ratify a treaty of mutual defence and peace.

This is seriously only a draft and a discussion. The government is open to suggested changes, amendments etc. This treaty is in the lobby to allow for questions and answers from Equilism envoy's.
 
Full Disclosure PD was the Foreign Minister of Westwind's rogue TNP government in 2008.

eluvatar,

Was this proposed by Equilism to us? If so, I'm never one to stick my nose up at an olive branch but I wonder if our region's have any alignment anywhere else. What benefit is there for TNP with this treaty?

I feel we should weigh pros and cons before agreeing or dismissing the treaty. but if Equilism came to us, I see that as a positive.
 
I think our region should motion for reconciliation -- these are different times. I don't think one can really say the game is "dying" in the same manner as players seemed to think when the 2008 coup occurred. Inactivity was the motivation behind the coup, yes?

I've heard WW's argument back in the day that he simply thought being democratically elected gave him that power, but I imagine this was apart his propaganda, his real motivation for the coup would be much appreciated. If was just to "shake things up" as we saw behind The Empire's motivations too, well, I lean towards reconciliation as a way forward -- several fantastically talented players were caught up in that forlorn hope to "save" NationStates.
 
unibot:
I think our region should motion for reconciliation -- these are different times. I don't think one can really say the game is "dying" in the same manner as players seemed to think when the 2008 coup occurred. Inactivity was the motivation behind the coup, yes?

I've heard WW's argument back in the day that he simply thought being democratically elected gave him that power, but I imagine this was apart his propaganda, his real motivation for the coup would be much appreciated. If was just to "shake things up" as we saw behind The Empire's motivations too, well, I lean towards reconciliation as a way forward -- several fantastically talented players were caught up in that forlorn hope to "save" NationStates.
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:agree:
 
We HAVE to get rid of the word "squabble." It makes it sound like we were arguing over the last jelly doughnut in the box. Either we say nothing about it or we acknowledge it entirely and allow both sides to commit to rebuilding a positive relationship.
 
I have never seen any expression of regret or apology from Equilism concerning the events of the westwind rogue delegacy. Given that, and the fact that many of the same people are in charge in EQ, i have to conclude that their attitudes have not changed and building closer relations with them would be an error.
 
having spoken with asta from equilism i am more content with this treaty. Although since we already have exchanged embassies with Equilism and the region is mainly roleplayers I cannot see what the benefit is to us in a formal alliance.
 
I'm not sure that entering into an alliance with EQ would be an error. I mean, the acrimony (if one can use that word) is not nearly what? Four years in the past?

When considering that mostly the same people are still in charge in EQ the same can be said of TNP. As PunkD says, we should examine the pros and cons before dismissing this matter out of hand. On the pro side, it would be beneficial in the militarily/defense areas.
 
I would have to say I am a bit confused. After all this time their is an issue with Equilism because Westwind "went rogue" in 2008?

His last activity in TNP was speaker of the RA in 2010, 2011 time frame.

Also for those unaware. During JAL's last coup of TNP, not many people were racing to aid TNP, and we didn't hear calls for aid either too loudly. BW was tarting, and it was Equilism that sent him over JAL.

Not too long ago a few weeks at most TNP asked for aid because some trouble maker was trying to mess with the delegacy, and Equilism answered your call, sending troops without hesitation.

Food for thought.
 
Whamabama:
Also for those unaware. During JAL's last coup of TNP, not many people were racing to aid TNP, and we didn't hear calls for aid either too loudly. BW was tarting, and it was Equilism that sent him over JAL.

Not too long ago a few weeks at most TNP asked for aid because some trouble maker was trying to mess with the delegacy, and Equilism answered your call, sending troops without hesitation.

Food for thought.
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These matters were definitely on my mind when I arranged the impromptu conference.
 
Wham brings up a good point, Equilism was involved a lot in the JAL Liberation. Rewarding that with reconciliation seems appropriate.
 
Elu, if I am reading this treaty draft right, it calls for a lower level of military commitment between both regions in this treaty than in the original set of military alliance treaties the R.A. ratified. Is that a correct reading?

While I recognize almost all of the treaty provisions in this draft is essentially boilerplate, it does seem that (and I have no problem with) there is a lower level of commitment militarily.

I think that is the topic that a more complete discussion would be helpful.
 
flemingovia:
speaking as someone with a passing knowledge of TNP history I have to ask: is this a joke? after all, our last "inter regional cooperation" with Equilism went so well, didn't it?

Nay.
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I agree. They got off easily when their coup with the Crimson Order happened, then there was the business with The Empire that some were involved in.

That and troublemakers like Biyah are still around <_<.
 
flemingovia:
I have never seen any expression of regret or apology from Equilism concerning the events of the westwind rogue delegacy. Given that, and the fact that many of the same people are in charge in EQ, i have to conclude that their attitudes have not changed and building closer relations with them would be an error.
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Another reason I agree with Flem on this point. A public statement should be necessary before this can even be considered by the RA in my opinion.
 
Govindia:
flemingovia:
speaking as someone with a passing knowledge of TNP history I have to ask: is this a joke? after all, our last "inter regional cooperation" with Equilism went so well, didn't it?

Nay.
Click to expand...
I agree. They got off easily when their coup with the Crimson Order happened, then there was the business with The Empire that some were involved in.

That and troublemakers like Biyah are still around <_<.
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Just because I like facts, Biyah hasn't really been active in Equilism in years. Or so he said. Not that he's so much a troublemaker, but I'm pretty biased there. ;)

Equilism has been helping TNP lately militarily in more than one instance, and has been a strong ally. The opposition seems to be stuck in a past that many TNPers or Equilism(ers? ites?) people weren't even around for, and ignoring the strong relationship that Equilism has offered through actions lately.
 
Earth:
Govindia:
flemingovia:
speaking as someone with a passing knowledge of TNP history I have to ask: is this a joke? after all, our last "inter regional cooperation" with Equilism went so well, didn't it?

Nay.
Click to expand...
I agree. They got off easily when their coup with the Crimson Order happened, then there was the business with The Empire that some were involved in.

That and troublemakers like Biyah are still around <_<.
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Just because I like facts, Biyah hasn't really been active in Equilism in years. Or so he said. Not that he's so much a troublemaker, but I'm pretty biased there. ;)

Equilism has been helping TNP lately militarily in more than one instance, and has been a strong ally. The opposition seems to be stuck in a past that many TNPers or Equilism(ers? ites?) people weren't even around for, and ignoring the strong relationship that Equilism has offered through actions lately.
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If you say so dearie ;)
 
I will say, personally that I am sorry for any actions that Equilism or it's members have undertaken that have caused ill-feeling between us.

The vast majority of our current government were not here during that period and have only positive thoughts towards TNP.
 
The North Pacific Regressive Party and the Durkadurkiranistan 2012 Exploratory Committee both oppose this treaty mainly because they overthrew me. Well, entirely because of that.
 
flemingovia:
having spoken with asta from equilism i am more content with this treaty. Although since we already have exchanged embassies with Equilism and the region is mainly roleplayers I cannot see what the benefit is to us in a formal alliance.
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Our activity is largely Roleplaying, yes, but part of the reasoning behind this treaty (I believe) is that we are trying to increase our gameplay participation and presence.

I have suggested a couple of changes to the treaty as posted, and as Equilism members seemed to like them, I thought I'd post them over here for y'all to comment on too.

The Sacagawea Alliance:
Recognizing our ancient bonds of friendship, transcending our squabble of 2008, the free regions of Equilism and The North Pacific seek to again have fun, foster inter-regional cooperation, and oppose tyranny in a new alliance.

1. The parties to this treaty are Equilism and The North Pacific.
2. The parties will recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty as the sole legitimate governments of their respective regions.
3. The parties will not seek or act to undermine one another by any means, including subterfuge, espionage, and invasion.
4. The parties will defend one another to the best of their ability on the request of the other party. Both parties will come to the other's military defensive aid upon request, unless they themselves are under current or imminent attack.
5. The parties will share any intelligence relevant to the defense of the other party.
6. A new treaty between the parties may override this treaty.
7. If a party to this treaty acts in willful non-compliance to this treaty, or attacks an ally of the other party, then the other party may immediately terminate this treaty and/or all diplomatic relations, and may issue a statement detailing the transgression.
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I altered 3 merely for style, and I found the original wording of 4 to be too broad - it could be read to require political defense as well as military, and could inhibit free criticism of the other's interregional or military actions.
 
I think that Asta's change to (4) actually broadens it, from defense of the respective regions to... more than that. Although I'm actually not quite sure what "come to the other military's defensive aid" means, rereading it.
 
I believe that an apology is in order and must be included in the treaty for what happened before. They may be under a new government, but they still have to account for the actions earlier administrations have done under their region's flag.
 
Eluvatar:
I think that Asta's change to (4) actually broadens it, from defense of the respective regions to... more than that. Although I'm actually not quite sure what "come to the other military's defensive aid" means, rereading it.
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You're reading it wrong, Elu - not the other military's defensive aid, the other's military defensive aid.

That is, to defend your delegacy from being overthrown, but not to defend you in a non-military matter or manner. Your original version specified "defend" only, which is not limited to shoring up the elected delegate.

But I'm open to discussing another change if you'd like.
 
Govindia:
I believe that an apology is in order and must be included in the treaty for what happened before. They may be under a new government, but they still have to account for the actions earlier administrations have done under their region's flag.
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If you can show me where the apologies from all other parties who have wronged TNP are living, then I'm sure we could take it under advisement.

But if none of the assorted coupers or invaders over the years have been expected to apologize for their actions, then this demand is unprecedented and unwarranted.

But while we're discussing apologies, I would also remind you that The North Pacific likewise took sides in what it believed to be a factual division of the Equilism government, with the intent of supporting the Government in Exile against the true monarch of the Realm. May we have an apology for that attempt to destabilize the rightful rule of the Founder?

No?
 
Astarial:
Govindia:
I believe that an apology is in order and must be included in the treaty for what happened before. They may be under a new government, but they still have to account for the actions earlier administrations have done under their region's flag.
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If you can show me where the apologies from all other parties who have wronged TNP are living, then I'm sure we could take it under advisement.

But if none of the assorted coupers or invaders over the years have been expected to apologize for their actions, then this demand is unprecedented and unwarranted.

But while we're discussing apologies, I would also remind you that The North Pacific likewise took sides in what it believed to be a factual division of the Equilism government, with the intent of supporting the Government in Exile against the true monarch of the Realm. May we have an apology for that attempt to destabilize the rightful rule of the Founder?

No?
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I was not aware there was a civil conflict in Equilism.

In either event, yes, both governments need to apologise for the past actions of what happened, including TNP if TNP was involved in your war.
 
Or they can just not and just move on; apologies are just words--Equilism's helped TNP out of some serious messes lately, which are actual -actions- of reconciliation. I think those speak considerably louder.

And don't fucking call me 'dearie'.
 
Govindia:
I believe that an apology is in order and must be included in the treaty for what happened before. They may be under a new government, but they still have to account for the actions earlier administrations have done under their region's flag.
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If it is a new government, then such an apology would be meaningless because a new government (successor government) is not responsible for the actions of its predecessor than you are for the actions of your grandfather, if you catch my drift.

But the whole unpleasantness (Crimson Order, et al) could have only been pulled off with the help of a rogue Delegate. Throw that onion into the stew and think about it.


I'm just framing this in terms of Realpolitik just to give a different possible way to look at it.
 
Earth:
Or they can just not and just move on; apologies are just words--Equilism's helped TNP out of some serious messes lately, which are actual -actions- of reconciliation. I think those speak considerably louder.

And don't fucking call me 'dearie'.
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:agree: they helped us out when the Delegate was inactive, and I could have accidentally found myself with the Delegate's position. As Earth says these are actions of reconciliation.
 
Romanoffia:
Govindia:
I believe that an apology is in order and must be included in the treaty for what happened before. They may be under a new government, but they still have to account for the actions earlier administrations have done under their region's flag.
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If it is a new government, then such an apology would be meaningless because a new government (successor government) is not responsible for the actions of its predecessor than you are for the actions of your grandfather, if you catch my drift.

But the whole unpleasantness (Crimson Order, et al) could have only been pulled off with the help of a rogue Delegate. Throw that onion into the stew and think about it.


I'm just framing this in terms of Realpolitik just to give a different possible way to look at it.
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Yet IRL governments are asked to apologise for past regimes instances of horrific acts done to people, and in most cases they do apologise for it.

I do not see why they are not willing to do so here.
 
It was then veiwed as a internal issue of TNP's. The legitamacy of The Crimson order was not for us to decide. Our assistance was requested by the TNP government, which was at the time unified. Afterwards when the region had it's problem we tended to have some nations in TNP between military missions elsewere. I realize the decision to stay after the split was not popular among those who fought against the Crimson Order, that is also understandable. However we obviously knew the delegate at the time, and we help our friends, as we have helped TNP on more than one occasion after 2008.

Now our numbers in the region were never too significant between our defending in other regions as might have been noted at the time when Lewis and Clark was leaving. We did reveal ourselves, and talk on the RMB at the time. Mainly wishing TNP well ect. I have placed the flag we were ordered to place on our UN nation, as well as the motto on my nation within TNP for anyone wanting to see it. Utopia nonconform

Also of note, I remember GBM, the new delegate declaring amnesty of all the nations within The Crimson Order. A very good thing to do. Given the circumstances, I would have understood wanting blood, but I have to give props for that action, and it has paid off. Many former members of The Crimson Order including Westwind have been able to join the government, and even be elected into cabinet positions, and many even the delegate of the region.

So given that you have moved on, and with former members of the Crimson Order, I do find it puzzling that you want Equilism to say I am sorry for giving support to that regime, when you did not require one from that regime, and those who were in it.

Now I hope we can get past this issue. It was in 2008 after all. Their are only a few of us even around left during that time. I was around, but I was a new recruit into the E-Army. I knew Westwind was the monarch of Equilism on paper, but had stepped down while he was in TNP. I did not know the politics of TNP, I did look into it as much as I could at the time, but even if I would have thought we were doing the wrong thing, I was not in a position to do much about it. Not that I would have alienated myself from my own region mind you. My loyalty to my region/regions have always been important to me personally.
 
we have got over it. You were found not guilty, remember? Mainly due to your stunning defence and divine intervention.
 
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