Poll: public posting of irc logs

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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The recent public posting of a private irc conversation makes me think that the RA sould at the very least express its opinion on the matter. So what do you think?
 
"Public Interest" meaning the public is interested or there is a legitimate reason why it'd be in The North Pacific's best interest for the record to be published?
 
Yes.

In this age, posting IRC logs of private conversations is very typical. Guys like Todd and several of the people who complained about the logs being posted, did not do so when AMOM posted private logs of me in TSP and the official forums, or when Biyah posted private logs of Sedgistan everywhere. The fact these people speak out against the logs being posted here now, but not other logs everywhere else is deliberate political maneuvering.

Private conversations should not be admissible as evidence though, if the conversation was taken severely out of context -- which in my case when AMOM pulled this stunt against me, was very much a problem.
 
This is the forum that banned Limitless Events for posting all the IP addresses for TNP in The Lexicon's private intelligence forums.

Yeeeaaaahhh...Let's not have a reverse repeat of that. I say "Never".
 
It is only acceptable if all participating parties agree to it. Period. There can be no equivocating, waffling or wavering on the issue. It has always been, "What happens on irc stays on irc."

If we do not maintain firm standards with respect to private conversations, well, you can bet I won't be going to Vegas with any of you.
 
I have always been a fan of handling these things more privately; releasing records to the government or security council as necessary (that clear public interest thing), rather than making them public.

Of course, this can lead to distrust of the government by the citizenry, but this is TNP, so we've already got that covered.
 
It was precisely because I didn't want the (in my view) anti-pattern wherein a trusted elite knows the Truth, but conceals it, while paternalistically deciding things as it sees the best interest of the region, that I wished the log published.
 
If that's really the case, how come we have Intelligence forums still hidden away from years ago even though any value or controversy from them being released has long since run its course?
 
That's a very good question and I myself would welcome further declassification.

EDIT: Obviously I only refer to matters where the ability to gather future intelligence would not be significantly impaired by declassification.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Well there is this topic I have been asking you to declassify for quite some time entitled "Wolves of the North"...
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I myself would welcome declassification of it. When I asked if I could grant you access however, I was told not to. There isn't really anything there to embarrass any of the admins, so I don't think that's the reason. :shrug:
 
Only in actual issues of regional security, but not like..ever anytime else with respect to private IRC logs.
 
I do think there are some other implications. I, for one, was under the impression that words spoken in classified threads would remain under wraps.

If we are now going to say that such threads may one day be declassified I would want to be aware of that in advance, and perhaps I would hold some discussions on an off-site forum. We have never had to do that before.
 
While private conversations should remain private, there are certainly instances where it is in the public interest to know what is going on.

Where appropriate, information should also be declassified.
 
Generally intelligence gathering works so that it is not released until authorized by the person in charge of that information. Typically also it is released, when such information will not cause national security issues. If Elu had released this information when you were Delegate, we don't know what could have happened, but it is easy to speculate on what the possible reaction could have been.

I believe it was released now, in the public interest, to clarify events that occured in recent months.

I have one interesting question for you

If it is true, that as you state, you decided against launching a coup once the recall was defeated. Why then did you not proceed to move forward with the constitutional convention as you stated? Or were you simply waiting for the opportune moment to coup with great effectiveness, and no moment presented itself.

You state that the log was taken out of context as progress is being made. Well yes that may be the case, but all progress in the area of legal and constitutional reform has largely taken place during the current governments term. If constitutional reform was so important, allegedly your reason for planning to coup the goverment, why did you in no way attempt to hold such a constitutional convention.

If I recall correctly, i pushed this idea several times, your response was that it would never work at all.
 
Yes, for the most part most of the reforms have come under this Delegate's term. Also for the most part all of the Treaties I signed off on as Delegate, including the Stargate treaty, were passed under Elu. Just because it happened under his rule doesn't mean I wasn't headed or actively partaking in Constitutional reform.

As Elu would be quick to point out, there was already a constitutional convention in place when I considered a Revolt. As I would be quick to point out, that constitutional convention has been going for the better part of a year and several delegates. My Constitutional Convention was meant to be free from outside distractions, and Elu told me many, many times that he was holding back on more radical changes because he was sure the Dog would stonewall them. I wished an environment where our members could truly discuss a real Constitutional without fear of reprisals or intimidation.
 
My problems with using words like "public interest" "trustworthy" etc is the quesiton of who decides. At the moment the Oligarchy (of which Elu is a key member) is deciding who is trustworthy and which information it is in the public interest to release.

The only reason for releasing the Blue Wolf log, it seems to me, is to raise suspicion about Blue Wolf - a political motive. Now, that may be "public Interest", but it is interesting, is it not, how in this case it has been decide that public interest and the interests of the Oligarchy coincide?

When I post in a classified area I do so on the understanding that the conversation is classified. I think it is wrong to turn to declassify conversations held in that understanding.

However, just as from now on I am aware that my private IRC conversations may be posted openly on this forum without my consent, I will be aware from now on that any threads on this forum may one day be in the public gaze. I think that is wrong, but I will choose my words accordingly and do more work offsite.
 
I think, more likely, that you'll find that this log will be the only thing released in the name of "public interest" for quite some time.

What a coincidence that will be.
 
I think all IRC logs should only be posted with consent from all parties in the conversation. Not sure which option fit this criteria though.
 
flemingovia:
When I post in a classified area I do so on the understanding that the conversation is classified. I think it is wrong to turn to declassify conversations held in that understanding.

However, just as from now on I am aware that my private IRC conversations may be posted openly on this forum without my consent, I will be aware from now on that any threads on this forum may one day be in the public gaze. I think that is wrong, but I will choose my words accordingly and do more work offsite.
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Actually I do think that one should generally get permission for declassification from everyone who has posted in a thread. Only in the most cut-and-dry and obvious of cases would I ever be comfortable with forgoing that.

As a practical point however, many of these archives have been viewed by people like, well, myself, who the original posters probably did not expect to ever be given that access.

In addition, categorically speaking, archives of Private Cabinet discussions are a different matter from archives of old intelligence agencies. It's far easier to justify keeping classified the latter, even several years later. For the former, I would expect all involved to give their permission.

Edit: reordered two sentences which had ended up in confusing order.
 
Felasia:
I think all IRC logs should only be posted with consent from all parties in the conversation. Not sure which option fit this criteria though.
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That would be "never."

I agree with Flem. This practice will certainly have a chilling effect on speaking freely.
 
Conversations that take place in public locations, like #tnp, may be posted at any time, I think. It is a public place, after all. Private logs should really remain private, at least away from public view. There are probably exceptions that vary from person to person, but the general consensus is you can use private logs *if* they present relevant information to a court case or *if* they represent a clear and present danger in the region, like someone confessing to a forum hack, for instance.

I fail to see how this publishing of logs falls into either category. These were published out in the open, unscrupulously by the current delegate, who judging by what I've read here and heard from others who recall past problems with publishing logs, should have known better. Yet, said delegate is not facing any problems with doing that. It's like "oops, did I do that? Well I guess I didn't mean to, but I'm still right and he's still guilty!" There's no such thing as a free lunch here. I have a feeling that if it was the other way around, and someone outside of the oligarchy posted logs about someone who was inside it, this would have been handled differently.

And I suppose that's where we stand now. Many people voiced their opinion about the publishing of such logs due to the timing and the seriousness of them. I question that myself, but rather than delve into another argument with that, I question how this is going to be handled here. If BW gets slapped for someone having a 'lapse of judgment' due to private logs being posted, I believe the same should be said for the delegate who has set a bad precedent in the region and a bad example overall. We're past the point where people can simply 'throw it out and forget it' - the damage has been done. Oops.

I would not be opposed to an independent body, outside of the oligarchy and the people who seem to be outside of it, to handle the postings of private conversations and deal with such consequences appropriately. It may not be *against the law* in TNP, for instance, to post private laws, but then again there are other heinous things that aren't covered by the law in which a person does something wrong and, whoops, we can't do anything about it because we only listen to our laws and not our common sense.
 
IRC queries / personal and private conversations should not be published unless the matter is of regional importance.

Otherwise, conversations on public channels like #tnp etc., are fair game and should be publishable by anyone.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Who gets to decided what "regional importance" is?
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We could post it and everyone could decide whether it's important or not?

Seeing all the people posting here talking about IRC private log posting as if its the worst practice in the world, warms my heart, when this behavior is conducted by their friends all the time with their support in other regions. It's only when it's their neck on the line that they scream about the practice.

Wanna tip? Don't say anything that could be used against you; don't say it on IRC to a friend, don't say it on skype or in their ear. Don't trust anyone. The political simulator doesn't end at the border of the forum; people are willing to screw you politically by any means necessary, anywhere, anytime. No one's above posting private conversations until it's politically advantageous for them to claim it being a tenet of life.
 
Sure, that make sense. Hey Unibot, can I post all the logs I have from your attempted liberation's of Anarchy and see if the public thinks those are important?
 
The old intelligence area archives are being kept in strict secrecy because there was a commitment made and accepted at the time that access to those areas would never be changed beyond admin and those given access at the time.

Most of those areas predate my ever being an admin, so I'm not in a position to evaluate the circumstances that led to those decisions.

As to the current topic, given the wide range of opinions on the topic just in this thread, it is clear that some sort of forum policy appendix will be needed in order to be consistent. One of the complications is that those of us involved with forum matters here have no control over IRC channels or their policies or practices, on the one hand, and the needs of government, officially or unofficially on IRC channels on the other.

And then there are multiple IRC channels associated with TNP, not to mention other regions. It is not reasonable to assume that we can have a flat rule of "never" when the past and current Delegate have taken to performing their official acts on IRC without any other record. So we can't have a "never" rule; and there are times, as it is with personal messages through the forum, where a private conversation that was logged might need to be disclosed whether all of the parties involved agree or not.

So we're going to have to have a policy defining things. It can be based on what we did with personal messages 5 years or so ago, but it would have to address things we didn't need to for that issue.

Effort would be better placed coming up with a draft for discussion than running around in circles.
 
My acts in #TNP, a public channel, have absolutely nothing to do with this case and its flat out false logic to assume so.

My appointments of Ministers via IRC does not equal Eluvatar's lying to Hileville in order to procure logs on supposedly official Security Council business, telling him those logs would never be seen by the public, and then releasing them to the public without his permission nor mine, for that matter.

Your excuse has nothing to do with this case and it is yet another one of your attempts to weasel out of taking the actions your position dictates you to take in favor of settling a personal grudge with me, Dog.

I would like to remind everyone involved that although those logs were made on IRC, that is not where Elu got them. He got them from Hileville via Private Message either on this forum or on TSP forums. The IRC issue is thus rendered moot. In essence, not only did ELu release a private and confidential log between myself and Hileville, he released a private and confidential Forum PM between himself and Hileville and in both cases he did not receive the permission from even Hileville, his source, to release that information to the public.
 
Blue Wolf II:
My acts in #TNP, a public channel, have absolutely nothing to do with this case and its flat out false logic to assume so.

My appointments of Ministers via IRC does not equal Eluvatar's lying to Hileville in order to procure logs on supposedly official Security Council business, telling him those logs would never be seen by the public, and then releasing them to the public without his permission nor mine, for that matter.

Your excuse has nothing to do with this case and it is yet another one of your attempts to weasel out of taking the actions your position dictates you to take in favor of settling a personal grudge with me, Dog.

I would like to remind everyone involved that although those logs were made on IRC, that is not where Elu got them. He got them from Hileville via Private Message either on this forum or on TSP forums. The IRC issue is thus rendered moot. In essence, not only did ELu release a private and confidential log between myself and Hileville, he released a private and confidential Forum PM between himself and Hileville and in both cases he did not receive the permission from even Hileville, his source, to release that information to the public.
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If these allegations are true then I believe the Delegate could certainly be accused of abusing his power by doing this. And his behavior seems very Dictatorial if not down right manipulative, I greatly hope these allegations are not true.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Eluvatar's lying to Hileville in order to procure logs on supposedly official Security Council business, telling him those logs would never be seen by the public, and then releasing them to the public without his permission nor mine, for that matter.
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That is a serious accusation.

Could Hilevile confirm whether this is true, or could Blue Wolf point to where Hile has already confirmed this?
 
flemingovia:
Blue Wolf II:
Eluvatar's lying to Hileville in order to procure logs on supposedly official Security Council business, telling him those logs would never be seen by the public, and then releasing them to the public without his permission nor mine, for that matter.
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That is a serious accusation.

Could Hilevile confirm whether this is true, or could Blue Wolf point to where Hile has already confirmed this?
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we all know that Hileville did give elu the permission to release the logs on June 27th
 
I'm only telling you what he told me.

<Blue_Wolf>: Hileville!
<Blue_Wolf>: I haz question.
<Blue_Wolf>: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8054484&t=6927587
<Blue_Wolf>: *poke*
<Hileville>: I thought it was just going to be given to SC members. I must have misunderstood what was asked.
<Blue_Wolf>: Might you mind sharing that?
<Blue_Wolf>: or I could just post this log anyway, since that's allowed now
<Blue_Wolf>: But really, I'd rather you post it. I was wondering why you were so quiet.
<Hileville>: I will talk with Elu before I post publiclly on the matter.
<Blue_Wolf>: So you were under the impression that only the SC would see this?
<Hileville>: Can you comment on the stuff I posted in Court area.
<Blue_Wolf>: Would you say its because of Elu's position on the SC that you provided him with this log?
<Blue_Wolf>: Can you comment on my questions first?
<Blue_Wolf>: Tit-for-tat
<Hileville>: Oh sorry.
<Hileville>: Elu got the log more or less because of being in TSP's cabinet and his position in TNP at the time.
<Blue_Wolf>: What was his position in the TNP at the time?
<Hileville>: SC
<Blue_Wolf>: Would you mind if I used this log
<Hileville>: I don't care.
<Blue_Wolf>: Thank you.
<Hileville>: According to Grosse you don't need permission anymore.
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Seems cut and dry.
 
Pasargad:
flemingovia:
Blue Wolf II:
Eluvatar's lying to Hileville in order to procure logs on supposedly official Security Council business, telling him those logs would never be seen by the public, and then releasing them to the public without his permission nor mine, for that matter.
Click to expand...

That is a serious accusation.

Could Hilevile confirm whether this is true, or could Blue Wolf point to where Hile has already confirmed this?
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we all know that Hileville did give elu the permission to release the logs on June 27th
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We do not all know, and the log posted by BW suggests otherwise. Do you have a log that suggests otherwise? Feel free to post it. Grosse doesn't mind.
 
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