A modest proposal for a way ahead.

Ok. The discussion over Roman, the Trials of JAL, the general activity levels and other stuff ought to have persuaded just about everybody that the system here is in need of a radical jump start.

Here are some proposals.

1. We draw a line under the old constituion. Scrap it.

It is not really fit for purpose any more, if indeed it ever was. The more we look at it the more inconsistencies and illogicalities appear. There seems to be general agreement that we start again. here is how I would do it.

a. Impeach Blue Wolf. He is too inactive.

b. Hold immediate delegate elections. Whoever is elected becomes delegate until the process of setting up a new consitution is complete.

c. Suspend / Abandon the current constitution and all other officers in the region. Let the delegate make any emergency appointments needed until we have a new working system.

d. Start from base principles: What sort of government (if any) do we want? What sort of worship shall we offer Flemingovia? Separation of powers? Delegate appoinees or elected poistions? Tea or Coffee? A democratic model or an autocratic one?

e. We start again






2. Here is the controversial bit. I think the new start needs a brand new forum. This forum would become an archive, just like old blue.

There are a number of reasons for this:

It emphasises the fact that this is a new start, and that we are making a break with the past rather than tinkering with it.

This forum has become increasingly unweildy and cumbersome. Each new system requires changes to forum organisation and masking, and we have enormous archives and still have many redundant areas. This could be sorted out, and steps have been taken, but it would be easier to start again.

Finally, and some folks aint gonna like this, I do not think Gross is the best person to be root admin. He is too wedded to the system as it is, and too inclined to be uncooperative to new ideas. This is only my impression, but I think we need a fresh start. I have similar reservations about Eluvatar, but I think he would be more adaptable to a new beginning.

1. It is obvious that while the constitution have worked for TNP in the past it is struggling to do much right now.

a. While it is understandable why he is inactive it doesn't change the fact that he is inactive and the region is in desperate need of someone to do something and take action.

b. A recall of BW would force a new delegate election and solve the first part of this quite easily. However, I feel that there should be some set pieces for how a constitution convention should be held. Namely how someone is allowed to participate and what kind of vote gives us a new constitution.

c. I see no problem with having the delegate making appointments and working to maintain some appearance of organization to the greater game community while things are being solved internally.

d. I think our best bet would be to take what is simple and works in the current system and use that as a means to jump into forming something new. The core idea of the RA being a body anyone can join works, the three justice panel with one for a case and all for an appeal, works well in theory. The simple requirements to run for delegate and their ability to choose their cabinet works somewhat but needs some structure in making sure certain things are done.

2. I agree that it is about time that this forum is retired. The sheer number of subforums and archives is mind-boggling and I can only imagine how many masks and permission groups there are to mess with. I also feel that a new forum would be best served by not having a specific account associated with being the root user. With forums like this one it does not belong to a single person but to the community. Actually finding a way to effectively implement such an idea is another matter.

Limi:

2. I agree that it is about time that this forum is retired. The sheer number of subforums and archives is mind-boggling and I can only imagine how many masks and permission groups there are to mess with.

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there are 22 different groups and 18 alternate permission sets.

Believe it or not, this is simplified from out old total.

flemingovia:

Limi:

2. I agree that it is about time that this forum is retired. The sheer number of subforums and archives is mind-boggling and I can only imagine how many masks and permission groups there are to mess with.

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there are 22 different groups and 18 alternate permission sets.

Believe it or not, this is simplified from out old total.

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Flem is correct that permissions have been simplified.

I'm reluctant to leave this forum because it has working search and a great deal of history.

I'm entirely willing to completely reorder and revamp. I would suggest that those who wish for a reorganization make a test forum, permit me to import this skin and such, and then fiddle with it until they have something they like.

Eluvatar:

Flem is correct that permissions have been simplified.

I'm reluctant to leave this forum because it has working search and a great deal of history.

I'm entirely willing to completely reorder and revamp. I would suggest that those who wish for a reorganization make a test forum, permit me to import this skin and such, and then fiddle with it until they have something they like.

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You do not lose the history in a forum move. This forum would remain as an archive.

The reason for the forum move is less practical than symbolic: it shows that we are serious about a fresh start rather than shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic.

Flem, you are being disingenious.

You held the root admin role at these forums longer than Hersfold or I combined by a considerable factor. And the deadest period of forum activity was during a two year period when nothing, not a thing, was passed or debated (or close to that) in the Regional Assembly. Again, during your time as root admin.

I've taken a position as root admin that unlike other region, the admin should not be the one forcing major changes on the region. One of the criticisms in the past has been the tendency in some regions to have the Admin as Delegate, and I only reluctantly handled both roles because we did not, and likely do not, have a large enough active moderation team. I will note that flem during his most recent term as Delegate did not give up the root admin status either. I think Flem needs to remove himself from consideration of being a root admin as well because he's not proven he's any better at it than I am.

Forum archiving. I changed the method of archiving late in 2010 because of the confusion the numerous old subforums was creating. Had we come up with the method and the autotools sooner we could have reduced that earlier. The other thing is that with Vilnoia1's help, we have gone through the entire active forums area and archiving older or inactive threads into the local archives that I mentioned before.

We have reduced the number of permissions, but it would be difficult to reduce those much more. It's the nature of the gameplay, but unless you wish to remove the ability of any government officials to be able to moderate any of their own areas, it would be difficult to simplify by much. We'd need a much larger moderation team, though. The other issue is that in recent years the government officials who have been chosen have been totally unwilling to do any housecleaning. They couldn't be bothered. So the problem here is not the structure of the forum, or the government, but the people who choose to do nothing whatsoever.
Now, Flem accuses me of being inflexible to change. He has it wrong. After being one of the facilitators at the Constitutional Convention and as Speaker when the current constitution was one of three versions that was brought to a vote, (and having to push things along to get to a vote), I'm waiting to see a proposal that I think has merit and is more likely to work. I haven't been convinced. I'm deliberately trying not to propose anything, because some people are so convinced I'm evil, they would reject anything I suggested out of hand, Now, let's be very clear. I did not draft or sponsor the constitution we're under right now. I didn't even draft most of the laws that are in the Legal Code right now. What I have had to do over the years was make proposals to fix the many problems that the originals of both had, step by step. Doing massive revisions or starting over would have the risk of create a whole new set of problems.
Elu has had a free hand in the Constitution Committee area (and I'll remind you all that I was the one that suggested it be done that way to reduce confusion and increase the odds of having something meaningful to vote on.) If something final emerges from that and if I am in the Speaker's chair, then after a final formal debate period it will go to a vote.

Drafting governing documents well, and that soundly work, is not as easy as some critics would have you think. Given the consequences of a poorly designed and inadequately written replacement, I'd be very careful of rushing to the next nova in the sky as a rash solution. It would likely prove not to be.

actually, I would like to see the region pick the root admin. This would be a change, since the administration team has generally been passed on as a gift from one admin to another.


I was senior admin for a long, long time. It is kind of you to point out that I have more experience as senior admin of TNP than anyone else. For that reason (and the fact that I know I would not screw the region over) I will not rule myself out for consideration as the root admin of the new forum.

But I am quite content to leave that choice up to the people of TNP. How about you?

One of the other problems I see with the existing government and to some extent this forum is the years of precedent and ways of doing things. Take for example the setup of the RA; we have a preliminary discussion, a formal discussion, and then a vote. There is nothing legally requiring it to be this way but its just the way it has been done so that is how people continue to do it.

There is more than just the laws that are causing issues, it is all these traditions and practices that have evolved over time. These unwritten "rules" create headaches for people trying to get involved and make changes. Wiping the slate clean also wipes these away making things more open and inviting.

Flem, if you are going to insist that I and Elu not be root admin, then you are totally dishonest in not ruling yourself as well. The word you are missing is "hypocrite."

And for the record you didn't gift me with being root admin; you just remasked yourself and left the regional forums rudderless. You never even bothered to give me a head's up that you were quitting. I had to track down Hersfold (not an easy task at Wikipedia, trust me) and have him reset his account here and he decided that I should take over control of the account.

From what I can see with your "Felimngovian Constitution" you're being an opportunist. You had a long time to change things, you had a chance as Delegate had you chose to, and you just quit.

I'm not impressed by your argument. You are in fact, the last person who should be telling me or any other admin what to do. And Limi, many of those here in TNP who are long term residents honor tradition. Something you forgot when you played games with people's personal information. Privacy isn't is TNP law, is it? Which must me that is a "tradition" too. But it was something you conveniently ignored for your own gameplay benefit, so your hypocrisy is showing as well.

While I agree in principle with Flem and others on certain points, THE major problem is that there is an elite in the government that is always there who tends to cling to power and then proceed to witch-hunt and trash anyone who is critical or wants to engage in legitimate change for improvement of the system. And that is what went wrong and is wrong with things as they are now.

I agree that the Constitution needs to be replaced after a serious discussion concerning the construction of a new Constitution that is greatly simplified and devoid of self governing entities that are acting in the capacity of a Shadow Government (The SC, specifically). There should be no entities that are self governing and above the Constitution and Law. Such entities have devolved into an end unto themselves and must be returned to a more democratic construction based upon the will of the citizens and not the will of the entities themselves.

But such talk about what is wrong with the system, how to change it legally and constitutionally and those who engage in any talk about how and why to do so is apparently now become a 'security threat' to the region as per the SC in recent events. And THIS is the type of thing that painfully exposes exactly what is wrong with the current system.

Grosseschnauzer:

Flem, if you are going to insist that I and Elu not be root admin, then you are totally dishonest in not ruling yourself as well. The word you are missing is "hypocrite."

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I think you overestimate my power. I cannot "insist" on anything regarding the new forum. Under my plan it would be for the regional assembly to make that sort of decision. I expressed my personal opinion that you should not be root admin. an opinion you are confirming with every post.

I will state that I believe that flemingovia and Grosseschnauzer have both shown that they can be trusted not to do heinous things with admin powers.

Obviously I trust myself more than any individual other person.

I would strongly prefer serious reforms right here to another migration. I recall Thel D'Ran had some useful thoughts on this matter back in I think it was 2007.

Edit: If Grosseschnauzer's amenable, I'd even prefer some kind of admin selection process right here to that kind of boondoggle.

Gents, can we try and keep personalities out of this as best as possible? I don't think the bickering helps anyone.

I can see the arguments in favour of changing forum, these forums are incredibly unwieldy but I'd suggest that seeing what can be done here to improve the forum first is worth a shot.

I think we need to get the government working again, so we know what forums we need and what we don't, then we can see if this forum can be made to work for our purposes.

If then that hasn't worked, I'd fully support bringing to vote the proposal on a forum move and let the region decide.

a sensible suggestion, however can I suggest that we set a time limit on attempts to get this forum ship shape?

How about we give it a month, until 15th April. By then it should be evident whether a move is worthwhile, and we open it up to debate.

1. We draw a line under the old constituion. Scrap it.

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No objection to a proposal to draft a new constitution.

a. Impeach Blue Wolf. He is too inactive.

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There is about a month left in his term so I'm not quiet sure if the impeachment will be done in time before the new election unless we start now. It might be a better use of time if we focus on the constitution now.

b. Hold immediate delegate elections. Whoever is elected becomes delegate until the process of setting up a new consitution is complete.

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There should be a time limit for a process to set-up the constitution though. 2 months should be more then enough.

c. Suspend / Abandon the current constitution and all other officers in the region. Let the delegate make any emergency appointments needed until we have a new working system.

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No objection.

2. Here is the controversial bit. I think the new start needs a brand new forum. This forum would become an archive, just like old blue.

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Agreed with what Haor Chall had said. I'm not against moving forum, but let's see if we can come up with a way to modify this one into a better shape first.

Question for y'all: Wouldn't this thread be better placed in the Main Entry area so that Registered Citizens and TNP Citizens can participate?
This does not seem to be a specific legislative proposal to be developed, and some of the advocates for broader participation should be amenable to placing this in the Main Entry area for that reason.
Finally, I see my role as Root Admin (as should the other admin) as having a responsibility to the TNP Community who may or may not choose to participate in the government. So far this discussion has only focused on governmental participation even to the distress of those in the regional community who do not share that focus. It was the interference of Twosilt in the TNP's community use of the Old Blue forums that led to our migration here, and that is something to keep in mind.
(As with the other thread, is there any objection to relocating this thread?)

Thread moved.