Total Overhaul of Everything

Romanoffia:
For instance, and I say this with the ultimate respect for GBM, but admitting someone to the SC without the proper requirements as to RA membership or Citizenship is not provided for in the Constitution or the Law. While I support GBM for the SC under any conditions, the creation of a special legislative condition to work around the constitutional requirements and procedure is a dangerous precedent to set.
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Constitution:
3. Assembly members may apply to join the Council if they meet the minimum Influence and endorsement levels prescribed by law. Other trusted members of The North Pacific who meet the minimum influence and endorsement levels prescribed by law may also apply to join the Council if the Regional Assembly grants an exemption to the Regional Assembly membership requirement by a two-thirds supermajority vote.
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The RA has a separate power to admit someone by a 2/3 majority vote. The two could even be combined in one motion, I would think.
 
Todd McCloud:
I'm sorry for only commenting on a small portion of your post (which was a good read) and sorry for taking this a bit off-course, but personally I think the SC should be disbanded, and in its place are 2-4 members who are allowed to stay over an endorsement cap, hold zero government power (except if they're in another body, like the RA for instance), and only move into action when there's the threat of a coup. No extra sub-forum. No organized committees or the like. They should be like the guards of the region: watching silently, and acting when it is time for war.
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Not a bad idea. Tresville and I talked about a group of 'guardians' for TNP. Simple to employ. In the event of an invasion, etc,..., and the Delegate has to expend a heap of influence ejecting/banning invaders, etc.,,,. then the next 'guardian' moves in and continues the festivities, and the next, and the next. Just pass the Delegacy to the next guardian nation before the Delegate gets too depleted.

It could even be arranged in 'regiments' - that is, a list of RA members arranged in groups by their endorsement level so that in a prolonged 'war' you have a constant stream of potential Delegates so that anyone invading can be pounded non-stop.

Along the same lines. I think that a 'suggested' minimum influence level for RA members might come in useful in such a defense program, as well as a serious endorsement program to support Delegates.

This last item is easy to do, especially if you can turn it into a running competition between feeders and user regions. Try to set a record for the most endorsed Delegate in NS history.
 
My first impression about the edited proposal is that there's still a lot in it that's very procedural and shouldn't be in a constitution. There were also some other things that jumped out at me. Not all of them are equally important to me.

2. The Delegate will be elected from the members of the Regional Assembly after the adoption of this constitution and shall serve until a new Constitution is adopted by the Regional Assembly or for a term not exceeding 12 months.
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I dislike language which is specific to the adoption of the constitution, unless it's self deleting. There also should just be a general clause stating terms, since this says nothing about how long delegates after the first one are supposed to serve. Also 12 months is a long time. I'd be willing to tolerate as much as 6 months, but would prefer 4 months.

3. The Delegate may veto bills passed through the Assembly that do not attain at least 60% supermajority in favor.
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There should be some time limit in which the veto must be made or else it is by default considered unused, so bills don't get stuck in indeterminate legal limbo.

4. The Delegate shall appoint a cabinet of executive officers to co-ordinate policy. These shall include, but are not limited to, officers to oversee foreign affairs, regional defence and internal affairs.
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I see no reason to require specific ministries in the Constitution. It would be better to say that the ministries of the cabinet may be regulated by simply everyday law.

3. The Assembly is led by the Speaker, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.
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6 months is a very long time for a position like Speaker. I would say it should be no longer than 4 months, tops.

4. The Speaker decides the order in which bills will be voted upon and is responsible for opening and closing each vote.
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I'm not comfortable with giving the Speaker absolute constitutional power over which order things are voted on. Things like that should be established by democratically and collectively agreed upon procedures.

6. Voting by the RA will be conducted within a 5 day period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill.
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Why the +1? A simple majority is already a majority, you don't need to add to it.

1. The Court shall have the authority to create it's own rules of procedure, consistent with the principles of the Bill of Rights and this constitution.
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I'd prefer that judicial procedures be established by law.

6. An Attorney General appointed by the Delegate shall oversee prosecutions on behalf of the state.
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I don't think this needs to be in the Constitution. It's essentially a definition of a cabinet level position.

2. All elections shall be held on the region's official off-site forum and shall be held immediately following the adoption of this constitution and as required by the constitution after. Elections shall last for a nomination period of 2 days, followed by a voting period of 5 days.
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Procedural matters like this should be left for regular laws, not the constitution.

3. Candidates for these elected officials must be members of the Assembly for 30 days before nominations begin.
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30 days is a lot. I'd prefer no more than 15, tops.

4. Election of the Speaker of the Assembly and Judiciary officials shall require a plurality vote of the Assembly
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Plurality voting is not a great system, and it's not great for the legitimacy of an office if it's possible for the person holding it to have been elected with a majority voting against them. There's no reason to believe that these positions couldn't also require a majority vote, just like elections for delegate and vice delegate.

1. This Constitution may be replaced with the approval of three quarters of votes cast in the Assembly in a vote lasting seven days. This vote will not be subject to a Delegate veto.
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There really should be a way to just amend parts of the constitution, rather than having to replace it every time.

And now for other things happening in this thread:

Todd McCloud:
I'm sorry for only commenting on a small portion of your post (which was a good read) and sorry for taking this a bit off-course, but personally I think the SC should be disbanded, and in its place are 2-4 members who are allowed to stay over an endorsement cap, hold zero government power (except if they're in another body, like the RA for instance), and only move into action when there's the threat of a coup. No extra sub-forum. No organized committees or the like. They should be like the guards of the region: watching silently, and acting when it is time for war.
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This seems to me like a SC by another name and with different procedures. The underlying idea is the same. Rather than disbanding it entirely and replacing it with a body with the same function, why not just reform it's procedures and the like?

Blue Wolf:
When we say to our newest RA members "Yeah, you can join, but you can't vote on anything and you can't run for any elections for a while" what we are basically saying to them is "Yeah, we don't trust you at all, go sit in a corner for a while and do nothing, that will earn our trust." Its completely stupid and is frankly undemocratic. Also we should either abolish the RA entirely and give TNP citizens voting rights or not have TNP citizens at all and declare you must, at the very least, be in the RA in order to have even the most basic rights.
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Eluvatar's current proposal addressed this issue by extending the franchise to all citizens and establishing a system of binding referendums, and replacing the current RA with a specialized, elected legislative body for the more active and legislatively inclined.The idea seemed fairly popular based on Eluvatar's straw poll, though not everyone voted and opinions may have changed.

Having worked with elected legislatures before, I can opine that done right it can work and resolve thorny issues like tying the franchise to activity requirements.
 
Todd McCloud:
First off, thanks for your diligence and effort, HC. Good to see things are movin' here! I'll comment / ask questions on a few things:

article 1:
2.The Delegate will be elected from the members of the Regional Assembly after the adoption of this constitution and shall serve until a new Constitution is adopted by the Regional Assembly or for a term not exceeding 12 months.
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I think the 4-6 month term is probably best here, as it has been done in the past, though tbh I'm leaning this way:
- six month terms
- halfway through their term, they may be subject to a recall vote, issued by anyone in the RA. It passes, we move on with elections, it doesn't, we go three more months with our boss.

Speaking as a delegate, the sheer amount of impeachment votes, re-votes, etc is kind of silly. Three months should be a long enough time for the delegate to do things or not do things and have the region draw conclusions as it sees fit.
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Todd, thanks for the positive comments, if I'm honest I didn't spend that much time on this so there is bound to be a lot of finessing required.

Fair point on the term length. I’d be happy with a 6 month term, I do think that too short a term doesn’t give a Delegate enough time to really make things happen but 6 months would be fine.


article 2:
3.The Assembly is led by the Speaker, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.
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I'd say three-month term, given the amount of work the RA speaker has and to basically give him or her an 'out' if they don't want to do it anymore rather than just going through the motions.
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Again, fair point. I’ve always avoided the Speakers job so I guess I can see where you’re coming from. :P

article 2:
6.Voting by the RA will be conducted within a 5 day period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill.
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TBH I'm not a big fan of the 'of participating RA members' clause. I think we can have it say 'of the entire body' as long as we have a quick and easy procedure of removing inactive RA members.
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Well, this is something we’ve had a lot of discussion around. In theory I know what you are saying, but in practice I don’t think it works. I guess we should add some quorum requirements which goes some way to ensuring the RA can’t just pass something with one or two people turning up.


article 2:
7.The Assembly may remove any holder of any elected or appointed office or position by a motion of recall approved by a two-thirds supermajority of the Regional Assembly.
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Should probably be specific here as to if this means of those voting or of the entire body. Personally, for such an important vote as this, I'd have it be a 2/3 affirmative vote of the Regional Assembly body.
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Fair point.


article 4:
2.All elections shall be held on the region's official off-site forum and shall be held immediately following the adoption of this constitution and as required by the constitution after. Elections shall last for a nomination period of 2 days, followed by a voting period of 5 days.
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Perhaps a nomination period of 3 days? 2 seems a bit short to me, just saying.
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I’d want to shorten the process compared to how lengthy it currently is, but again the actual number could be amended.


3.Candidates for these elected officials must be members of the Assembly for 30 days before nominations begin.
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I never really liked this rule, though I do see it's intent. I just... don't really like the waiting period is all. If you're qualified to do it, and you're new, let the voters rule on that, not the law.
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Uh, ditto to be fair. I’ll be honest, like I said this was a fairly rush job in a spare 10 mins at work… so I just lifted various bits of the existing constitution and worked it into Romans initial constitution in this thread. If I’d thought about it a bit more I’d have left that bit out.


@BW - The last point above should address your thoughts too.
 
Gulliver:
My first impression about the edited proposal is that there's still a lot in it that's very procedural and shouldn't be in a constitution. There were also some other things that jumped out at me. Not all of them are equally important to me.

2. The Delegate will be elected from the members of the Regional Assembly after the adoption of this constitution and shall serve until a new Constitution is adopted by the Regional Assembly or for a term not exceeding 12 months.
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I dislike language which is specific to the adoption of the constitution, unless it's self deleting. There also should just be a general clause stating terms, since this says nothing about how long delegates after the first one are supposed to serve. Also 12 months is a long time. I'd be willing to tolerate as much as 6 months, but would prefer 4 months.
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Thanks for comment Gulliver. I see what you are saying, I think what I would want to avoid is having a super streamlined constitution but then half a million other documents and bits of legal code that need referring to. So it’s about striking a balance between what should sensibly be in the constitution, keeping it streamlined and functional, but ensuring we don’t end up overcomplicating the legal code as a result. Or something.

Fair point about the language there though, that was from Romans original document and wouldn’t make much sense if we adopted this as a permanent constitution. So yes, should be removed.


3. The Delegate may veto bills passed through the Assembly that do not attain at least 60% supermajority in favor.
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There should be some time limit in which the veto must be made or else it is by default considered unused, so bills don't get stuck in indeterminate legal limbo.
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Good point. What’s reasonable, 5 days?


4. The Delegate shall appoint a cabinet of executive officers to co-ordinate policy. These shall include, but are not limited to, officers to oversee foreign affairs, regional defence and internal affairs.
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I see no reason to require specific ministries in the Constitution. It would be better to say that the ministries of the cabinet may be regulated by simply everyday law.
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Again, as per your original point this could go either way. The intention of having it in the constitution is to strike a balance between ensuring certain executive positions are filled but giving the Delegate the flexibility to create the cabinet as he wants to. Inevitably something written into the legal code will end up being more restrictive.


3. The Assembly is led by the Speaker, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.
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6 months is a very long time for a position like Speaker. I would say it should be no longer than 4 months, tops.
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Agreed.


4. The Speaker decides the order in which bills will be voted upon and is responsible for opening and closing each vote.
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I'm not comfortable with giving the Speaker absolute constitutional power over which order things are voted on. Things like that should be established by democratically and collectively agreed upon procedures.
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Fair point, again the language came from the existing documents. So, maybe “The speaker is responsible for opening and closing each vote, according to the procedures of the Regional Assembly”? I suspect somebody can word that better though.


6. Voting by the RA will be conducted within a 5 day period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill.
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Why the +1? A simple majority is already a majority, you don't need to add to it.
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It’s the old 50%+1, expressed incorrectly I suspect.


1. The Court shall have the authority to create it's own rules of procedure, consistent with the principles of the Bill of Rights and this constitution.
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I'd prefer that judicial procedures be established by law.
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Good point.


6. An Attorney General appointed by the Delegate shall oversee prosecutions on behalf of the state.
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I don't think this needs to be in the Constitution. It's essentially a definition of a cabinet level position.
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Again, personally disagree.

2. All elections shall be held on the region's official off-site forum and shall be held immediately following the adoption of this constitution and as required by the constitution after. Elections shall last for a nomination period of 2 days, followed by a voting period of 5 days.
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Procedural matters like this should be left for regular laws, not the constitution.
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Hmm, I suppose. I think that some basic principles for how elections must be run could be in the constitution.


3. Candidates for these elected officials must be members of the Assembly for 30 days before nominations begin.
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30 days is a lot. I'd prefer no more than 15, tops.
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Agreed, already addressed.


4. Election of the Speaker of the Assembly and Judiciary officials shall require a plurality vote of the Assembly
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Plurality voting is not a great system, and it's not great for the legitimacy of an office if it's possible for the person holding it to have been elected with a majority voting against them. There's no reason to believe that these positions couldn't also require a majority vote, just like elections for delegate and vice delegate.
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Personally disagree, if you have a lot of candidates, it means run offs, etc. We’ve had this problem before, and the decision of the RA at the time was for plurality voting for elections (except Del/V. Del).

1. This Constitution may be replaced with the approval of three quarters of votes cast in the Assembly in a vote lasting seven days. This vote will not be subject to a Delegate veto.
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There really should be a way to just amend parts of the constitution, rather than having to replace it every time.
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Fair point, again the language was from the original temporary proposal. Should be changed to include amendments.




And now for other things happening in this thread:

Eluvatar's current proposal addressed this issue by extending the franchise to all citizens and establishing a system of binding referendums, and replacing the current RA with a specialized, elected legislative body for the more active and legislatively inclined.The idea seemed fairly popular based on Eluvatar's straw poll, though not everyone voted and opinions may have changed.

Having worked with elected legislatures before, I can opine that done right it can work and resolve thorny issues like tying the franchise to activity requirements.
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I’m personally not a fan, having said that it could work but I don’t see we have the activity base to make it work at present. A future amendment along those lines maybe, but I don’t see that working at all if implemented now.
 
When I'm home later and get the chance (and can actually start new topics lol), I'll start a new thread to work on amending this proposal further.
 
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