Palestine bid for independence to the UN Council

Pasargad

Pasargad

Ancient
TNP Nation
Pasargad
Another installment in the Middle East's dramatic year of change will take place this week at the annual United Nations’ (UN) General Assembly in New York. Under pressure from its people, the Palestinian Authority is planning to apply for full membership of the UN as an independent state. This apparently bureaucratic procedure is less eye-catching than the “Arab Spring” uprisings but could have a significant effect on the deadlocked Israeli-Palestinian dispute.
Do you support or oppose this move by Palestinian Authority?
 
That's not a question I can readily answer. I'm not even completely sure.

Obviously the palestinians shouldn't be stateless. The state they are in currently is reprehensible.

I'm really worried about the consequences if the United States vetos this.

And yet, things could very well get even worse if it passes, and I lack much information to evaluate.
 
i agree with you that US veto will not benefit US , it may lose all the influence it had gained by supporting Arab Spring in Islamic world and feel that Palestine state will be beneficial to both us and israel
 
Blue Wolf II:
They may just play it safe and not show up to the vote at all.
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Then Obama will lose the jewish vote and we will be viewed perhaps as weak and unfaithful to our allies.
 
Or we appear to have betrayed the faith of all the Islamic states, but last I checked there weren't any Yiddish ramming planes into building because they were pissed off about American foreign policy. Losing the Jewish opinion might cost votes, but losing the Muslim opinion might cost lives.
 
Oppose, because with the current state of the peace process, the Palestinians have not done anything to show they can be a viable, democratic state that isn't dealing in terrorism, nor have they made any concessions to peace to the Israelis. It's usually been Israel that's been making those concessions. I don't hear anything from the Palestinian side much.

The day I actively see and hear the Palestinians condemning terrorism, not allowing terrorists to operate on their land, and actively cooperating and working with Israel on security issues etc., is the day I will support statehood for the Palestinian Authority.
 
Excuse me but the PLO has certainly made concessions!

To argue otherwise is to expose either dishonesty or ignorance.
 
Govindia:
Oppose, because with the current state of the peace process, the Palestinians have not done anything to show they can be a viable, democratic state that isn't dealing in terrorism, nor have they made any concessions to peace to the Israelis. It's usually been Israel that's been making those concessions. I don't hear anything from the Palestinian side much.

The day I actively see and hear the Palestinians condemning terrorism, not allowing terrorists to operate on their land, and actively cooperating and working with Israel on security issues etc., is the day I will support statehood for the Palestinian Authority.
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neither Israeli's has ever made any concessions and this is not the question of who is responsible or... it's the question of rights of a millions of people who r living under occupation for 60 years to finally have a state to call it their own which will lead to greater peace for israel, middle east and the entire world
 
Govindia:
Eluvatar:
Excuse me but the PLO has certainly made concessions!

To argue otherwise is to expose either dishonesty or ignorance.
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When and where?
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when they recognized the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.. when they agreed west Jerusalem to be part of Israel.when they accepted United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
and this was back in 1993 and they still r living under occupation 18 years after making these concessions!!
 
Pasargad:
Govindia:
Eluvatar:
Excuse me but the PLO has certainly made concessions!

To argue otherwise is to expose either dishonesty or ignorance.
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When and where?
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when they recognized the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.. when they agreed west Jerusalem to be part of Israel.when they accepted United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
and this was back in 1993 and they still r living under occupation 18 years after making these concessions!!
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If they recognised Israel's right to exist in peace and security, how come they're not doing anythign to stop terrorists from attacking Israel that are coming from their territory?

They haven't done anything concession wise in the name of showing they're serious about democracy, human rights, and counter-terrorism. so no, they do not deserve statehood IMO because they have shown irresponsibility in performing their obligations to the international community
 
this topic is not about terrorism or who is bad who is a terrorist ,who is killing civilians with planes and tanks or or firing home made rockets or bombing buses it is about rights of a nation who have been under occupation to have their own state and have same basic human rights as every one else .and you don't have the right to judge or condemn whole nation who are under permanent and illegal occupation of a foreign nation for actions of a few individuals
 
Pasargad:
this topic is not about terrorism or who is bad who is a terrorist ,who is killing civilians with planes and tanks or or firing home made rockets or bombing buses it is about rights of a nation who have been under occupation to have their own state and have same basic human rights as every one else .and you don't have the right to judge or condemn whole nation who are under permanent and illegal occupation of a foreign nation for actions of a few individuals
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The Palestinian territories are self governing and self controlled. I think it's reasonable to expect any attempts at statehood with clear proof to show they are caring about Israel's security and wanting to live in peace by thwarting terrorists and not letting them get out of their borders to attack Israel, and turning over terrorists to Israel that are wanted, and keeping any criminals / terrorists they have in jails, not through revolving doors.

They are severely lacking in these areas, and these areas they must show they are taking seriously in order for anyone to take them seriously about statehood IMO.
 
I disagree with you till Palestine does not gain it's independence it can not be held responsible as it is not yet full member of international community ,you are talking about Palestinian authority safe guarding Israel , they can not safe guard their own people from Israel army how can you expect them to work for isreal security when they do have the means to protect their own people
 
Pasargad:
I disagree with you till Palestine does not gain it's independence it can not be held responsible as it is not yet full member of international community ,you are talking about Palestinian authority safe guarding Israel , they can not safe guard their own people from Israel army how can you expect them to work for isreal security when they do have the means to protect their own people
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How can ISrael feel safe from the PA when the PA haven't done anything to stop terrorists from leaving the PA to attack and kill innocent Israelis, prompting a violent Israeli response because of the lack of PA security countermeasures ?
 
same can be said about Israel threat to Palestinians, the bottom line is the only solution is an independent Palestine and Israel side by side
 
Pasargad:
same can be said about Israel threat to Palestinians, the bottom line is the only solution is an independent Palestine and Israel side by side
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Israel won't attack if Palestinian Authority takes care of its own security problems. If there are no terrorists to deal with, Israel won't have to feel like attacking.
 
Self-determination is understood as the right of all national groups (in practice, groups recognized as such by themselves and by others) to be governed and represented (popularly or otherwise) by a sovereign state (or federation) functioning as the highest source of domestic legal authority. Affirmation of the right to self-determination is prominently featured in art. 1(1) of both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It is deemed to be an inherent right; that is, it does not derive from the international legal order but rather is presupposed by the latter: art. 1(2) of the United Nations Charter recognizes the principle of self-determination as a basis for the existence of the UN.
 
Pasargad:
Self-determination is understood as the right of all national groups (in practice, groups recognized as such by themselves and by others) to be governed and represented (popularly or otherwise) by a sovereign state (or federation) functioning as the highest source of domestic legal authority. Affirmation of the right to self-determination is prominently featured in art. 1(1) of both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It is deemed to be an inherent right; that is, it does not derive from the international legal order but rather is presupposed by the latter: art. 1(2) of the United Nations Charter recognizes the principle of self-determination as a basis for the existence of the UN.
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Yea, but when that self determination impedes on the security of another nation.......
 
The International Law gives the right to people under occupation to resist the occupation by any means. Many countries have resisted occupation including the USA.
In fact: The UN Resolutions and the International Community recognizes that the Palestinians are under Occupation by Israeli army forces, so until they are not an independent state they have the right to resist the Israeli occupation but after they gain their independence they can be held responsible
 
Pasargad:
and attacking militants does not include bombing hospitals and schools and water and power infrastructures
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Tell that to the militants who delibereately attack Israeli civilians and other targets from those locations.

If the PA realyl cares abotu statehood I expect them to have a zero-tolerance policy on terrorist actions by their own people on Israelis.
 
i will not continue arguing with Govindia on this topic as it is obvious we have different view points on the subject and feel that Govindia has diverted the Topic .
 
It is pretty relevant, because I feel that Israel may not be comfortable having the PA as a state that does little to curb attempts to stop terrorism flowing out of its country into Israel's.

Israel has made enough concessions on land for security, and still isn't getting the peace and security it was promised.
 
A problem in discussing political subjects these days is that people are free to choose their own sources of information, and often choose to select sources which agree with them.

We have come to act as though we have the right to our own facts.
 
Pasargad:
Another installment in the Middle East's dramatic year of change will take place this week at the annual United Nations’ (UN) General Assembly in New York. Under pressure from its people, the Palestinian Authority is planning to apply for full membership of the UN as an independent state. This apparently bureaucratic procedure is less eye-catching than the “Arab Spring” uprisings but could have a significant effect on the deadlocked Israeli-Palestinian dispute.
Do you support or oppose this move by Palestinian Authority?
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I support this move wholeheartedly for the simple reason that the peace process has been stalled for at least the last decade. Trying an alternative avenue for recognition is a smart move, though I doubt very much that the PA actually believes it will be successful. This is more a measure to revitalize discussion that was frankly killed by the Israelis not so long ago. The most recent attempt at discussions were halted because of the refusal of Israel to halt settlement construction in disputed territories.

[Sure, we could get into the aspects of terrorism (both Palestinian and Israeli), or the illegal blockade of Gaza and the general embargo on basic goods flowing into the Palestinian territory, or Palestinian rocket attacks and kidnappings, but such arguments are fruitless, and I feel they actually highlight why allowing for a Palestinian state would permit more clear redress of wrongs committed by both sides.]

I thank you for bringing this up for discussion, as I feel this particular section of TNP could use some life breathed into it. :)
 
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