Split from HEM's delegacy election thread

Gracius Maximus

Gracius Maximus

Tyrant (Ret.)
HEM was disqualified by Dalimbar.

Also, are you including the farming from s4 (to which you were complicit :P) in your tally or just this board specifically?
 
What farming from S4?

However, in the interests of pot/kettle/blackedness I would encourage people to look at THIS thread.

Scroll down and you will see a complete list of names, IP addresses and e-mails from a rogue TNP forum (not one I was ever involved in) posted by ... let me see ... Pierconium.

If you can publish a similar list shared by me, I would love to see it. Because I know it don't exist.
 
flemingovia:
What farming from S4?

However, in the interests of pot/kettle/blackedness I would encourage people to look at THIS thread.

Scroll down and you will see a complete list of names, IP addresses and e-mails posted by ... let me see ... Pierconium.

If you can publish a similar list shared by me, I would love to see it. Because I know it don't exist.
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Technically that's against the InvisionFree / ZetaBoards Terms of Service.

Also, I do not think HEM was disqualified, didn't the court rule otherwise? :ADN:
 
flemingovia:
What farming from S4?

However, in the interests of pot/kettle/blackedness I would encourage people to look at THIS thread.

Scroll down and you will see a complete list of names, IP addresses and e-mails from a rogue TNP forum (not one I was ever involved in) posted by ... let me see ... Pierconium.

If you can publish a similar list shared by me, I would love to see it. Because I know it don't exist.
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Sigh, some things never change, you are still a crybaby.

Read what was posted. I asked if you included the lifting of IP addresses from s4, which you supported at the time, in order to identify those in the NPD. I didn't say you did this or that and I never did, which is what your response implies.

Also, no, such an action is not a violation of IF ToS. I am repeatedly amazed at the number of people that try to jump to some fanciful "that violates ToS!" argument without apparently having an understanding of what that entails.

Fun stuff on that link though.
 
Govindia:
flemingovia:
What farming from S4?

However, in the interests of pot/kettle/blackedness I would encourage people to look at THIS thread.

Scroll down and you will see a complete list of names, IP addresses and e-mails posted by ... let me see ... Pierconium.

If you can publish a similar list shared by me, I would love to see it. Because I know it don't exist.
Click to expand...
Technically that's against the InvisionFree / ZetaBoards Terms of Service.

Also, I do not think HEM was disqualified, didn't the court rule otherwise? :ADN:
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No, the Court did not rule otherwise.
 
Not crybabying - just calling you out for making accusations (which, as usual, you do not back up with anything inconvenient like, say, evidence or citations or proof) when your own actions are a matter of public record.

Not a matter for invisionfree, perhaps, but actions that most people would regard as taking a game a damn sight too far.

Anyway, HEM, sorry for the threadjack. Thanks for your response to my questions.
 
flemingovia:
Not crybabying - just calling you out for making accusations (which, as usual, you do not back up with anything inconvenient like, say, evidence or citations or proof) when your own actions are a matter of public record.

Not a matter for invisionfree, perhaps, but actions that most people would regard as taking a game a damn sight too far.

Anyway, HEM, sorry for the threadjack. Thanks for your response to my questions.
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You were a leader of the so called resistance movement during the time of the NPD. You utilized the benefits of the lifted IP addresses throughout your time in that organization in propaganda attempts citing Poltsamaa and others as "outsiders" and "invaders" based on the knowledge gained solely through the lifting of IP addresses from the forum. At no point did you condemn the action or state at any time that you believed it was "taking a game a damn sight too far". Now I believe your pot and kettle scenario is more accurate, just not directed where you intended it to be.

The "evidence" of such actions is in multiple posts from you at the time. Simply because the s2 administrators never decided to open up that forum or any of the others where you plotted to public scrutiny you seem to think that absolves your involvement. (What happened to s2 anyway? Was going to go pull up a few of your posts but the forum has been deleted.)

The link you posted was from a secure part of the PRP forum. That information was used, just as IP cross referencing is used in most large regions (or at least used to be when the game was active), for security purposes in order to weed out and find potential spies. It was not posted in a public location and your attempts to sight it as such only shows that you are either ignorant of current reality of the time or just being an asshole, or both.

I have never posted IP address lists in a public venue so you attempting to insinuate that such things occured is really pathetic.

As far as "taking a game a damn sight too far" I think dwelling on events that happened 4-5 almost 6 (where does the time go?) years ago now would definitely qualify.
 
Nope. Wrong - and happy to see any evidence to the contrary.

I have only ever referred to IP addresses from forums I am admin of*, and have never (as far as I remember) been willing to share such information with others, including allies. There are many here who will confirm that, because they have asked me for information i have refused to divulge.

I have sometimes given confirmation to people, for example when asked "does the IP Address 12.345.678.9 belong to Biggus Dickus?" but that is as far as I have been willing to go.

I remember being asked to condemn various people in various situations during the Pixiedance wars, generally for the purpose of driving a wedge between members of the resistance. I refused to do so - especially (as now) when evidence never accompanied the accusations.

Once again, show the evidence and I will put up my hands.

I will not even attempt to address the "if it is published in a secure forum that is OK" argument fully. When you publish such details anywhere it is a betrayal of trust as an admin, since you then have no control over what is done with that data, who takes it from that forum or whether the admin of *that* forum (as now) chooses to make the data public.

I do agree with you that it is ancient history. Relevant only when reflecting on the trustworthiness of individuals or general principles of Forum administration - an issue which HEM has already addressed.


*I remember one exception. Once during EM's rogue delegacy someone sent me a PM with the IP addresses of three known invaders they suggested I might be on the lookout for. I cannot remember any other instances.
 
You posted all that without actually addressing the point.

You commented on the use of IP addresses removed from the forum, I asked a very simple quantitative question on whether those "two instances" included s4. I also stated that you were aware of that action and utilized that information in your IC propaganda without the pretend righteous indignation that you like to utilize here.

All you could say was that you never listed IP addresses and then posted a link to a list that was posted in a private forum which isn't what was being discussed at all. The issue is whether using IP addresses at all for any IC purpose is valid.

I know it must be frustrating for you to know that there is at least one person here that doesn't buy into your "saint" flemingovia bullshit. You are only offended about such issues when you aren't benefiting from them. You benefited from the same sort of activity during NPD but now are emotionally scarred that someone would question whether or not it is a possibility here.
 
To address your point, then - the two specific instances I was referring to was Scardino's publishing of details harvested from this forum and your publishing of details harvested from the NPD forum.

I think I have been quite specific in what I have and have not done. Saint Flemingovia has nothing to do with this forum or region - he is a character in the West Pacific. I have made no claims of sanctity here.
 
flemingovia:
To address your point, then - the two specific instances I was referring to was Scardino's publishing of details harvested from this forum and your publishing of details harvested from the NPD forum.

I think I have been quite specific in what I have and have not done. Saint Flemingovia has nothing to do with this forum or region - he is a character in the West Pacific. I have made no claims of sanctity here.
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What I did was not publishing since it was posted in a private forum to which I had administrative privileges at the time and was only accessible by a select group of people. As you said, at the time I had control of the information. Just as you may not, for whatever reason, always be admin here, the situation there changed over time.

Regardless, when IP addresses were lifted from the s4 forum and you utilized the information to your benefit there was no issue of whether it was right or wrong at the time because you benefited from it. Even now, even though you know that IPs were harvested from s4 prior to the post you reference from Pierconium, you don't consider that "wrong" or some self imposed violation of trust because you gained something from it. Seems very hypocritical.
 
I haven't seen the thread specifically, but publicly posting E-mail addresses and IP addresses of users without their consent is a clear violation of RL privacy laws and hence the Terms of Service, and is quite illegal to do so. :gov:
 
Govindia:
I haven't seen the thread specifically, but publicly posting E-mail addresses and IP addresses of users without their consent is a clear violation of RL privacy laws and hence the Terms of Service, and is quite illegal to do so. :gov:
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Which "RL privacy laws" do you refer to in this claim?

The only governmental entity to state specifically that IP addresses are "private information" was the EU in 2008 and that was not ever codified into a binding law, plus a French court ruled just a couple of months ago that an IP address is not considered private information. The UK supported the EU law but determined that IP addresses specifically are not personal information at all because they are associated with a location, not an individual.

Regardless of that, there are no such laws within the United States, where IF is housed legally and where I reside as the owner of the board from which those specific IP addresses were listed (again, privately, since they were never listed publicly anywhere). Plus, trying to gauge that an act which took place in early 2005 would somehow be subject to a legal ruling that took place in 2008, or even if the US Congress decreed it today, would be a bit of a stretch.
 
Proof? Citation? Anything other than bluster?

Thought not.

Repeating an accusation over and over is not the same as offering proof.
 
flemingovia:
Proof? Citation? Anything other than bluster?

Thought not.

Repeating an accusation over and over is not the same as offering proof.
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I thought you were proud of being the leader of the resistance group when Pixiedance was in control? Odd that you would shy away from it now. It is generally considered public record that you were an advocate against the NPD, is it not? I am not sure why I would even need to provide anything that supported that claim. :eyeroll:

Regardless, we have moved on. Now we are discussing made up "RL privacy laws" regarding the posting of IP addresses.
 
Very proud of being part of the leadership of the resistance against Pixiedance. Don't see how that is relevant, nor do I see how that is contradicted by anything I have said above.

What I am asking for is proof that I ever used or condoned the use of phished IP addresses. I have provided proof and citation. Can you?
 
flemingovia:
Very proud of being part of the leadership of the resistance against Pixiedance. Don't see how that is relevant, nor do I see how that is contradicted by anything I have said above.

What I am asking for is proof that I ever used or condoned the use of phished IP addresses. I have provided proof and citation. Can you?
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Right, you keep spouting on and on about that. Unfortunately I do not have access to the full contents of "old blue" so I can't provide it. The only reason you have anything as "evidence" against me, although I still fail to see the purpose of that since I am not denying anything that I have done so it just seems ignorant to go on and on about it, is because someone at a much later date decided to open up a private forum. Bravo! :eyeroll:

Also, I don't delete my posts when the flames get hot, unlike some people. That was your first public propaganda piece after TWP revealed the ministry of the NPD through lifted IP addresses. A practice that goes beyond an administrator utilizing the information that registered users freely provided to him or her to begin with and literally stole information that was not shared with them off the boards.

Your own people called you out for that one. You used the information knowing how it was gathered and you did so to such an extent that you alienated some of your own followers. Flemingovia, patron saint of hypocrits.

Perhaps if I went back and started deleting posts I could come back and say "no u" regarding evidence as well, even though the historical record and memory of some of us is still intact.
 
I would contest the idea that the collection of IP addresses from a forum you do not administrate is somehow an violation whereas an administrator collecting IP addresses and bringing them elsewhere is acceptable.

I think the two are both accepted practices in this game, but that an administrator in particular has an obligation not to do so recklessly.

In my opinion Mammothistan/New People, in making and keeping that thread Flemingovia linked to entirely public, is not acting as a good citizen.

As a side point: if I am correct about how IPs were gathered from the NPD site, "phishing" is not an appropriate word to use. "Phishing" is when you represent yourself as someone you are not to gain privileged information.
 
I agree that you are at a disadvantage in not having access to S2. But, generally speaking, it is wise before making accusations to have evidence to back them up, otherwise to hold one's counsel.

ON the deleted post issue, I hold my hand up to that one. I vaguely remember the thread, and as I recall I let my sense of humour/satire get the better of me for once and posted something that was cruel rather than funny. I regretted it, because it strayed over a line of good taste, and deleted it. Since the NPD were baying for it to be deleted, I find it odd that you are calling me out for deleting it now?

To be honest I never knew how TWP obtained details from the NPD site. Nor did they ever show me the actual IP addresses. I would be interested to know how it was done, if only to plug a potential security risk on this site.
 
Hmm, well, it was fairly common knowledge at the time but you had bouts of inactivity. I figured "Donder" would have brought it up, plus the fact that you were part of Fail4All's miserable attempt at a puppet invasion (which is still considered by many to be cheating or against the spirit of the game) that you had access to it. I know based on the copy and paste threads nish1 was providing us of the underground forums that you were posting in the same area in which the TWP info was posted.

Regardless, the IP addresses were captured via offsite image hosting. I don't know the technical aspects but evidently whenever the image would load on a persons computer the site it was hosted on would capture that computer's IP address and TWP cross referenced those grabs with post times and matched up the IPs to people from Sparrow.

As to me bringing up that post specifically, it highlights your hypocrisy over such situations. During the PRP summit one of my people posted a tabloid about you that you cried and cried about. I apologized for it and shut it down. Less than a week later you did the exact same thing after TWP released the information. I pointed out your hypocrisy on the issue then but did not ask you to remove it, your own people did that. You utilize information as it is convenient for you but complain if others do the same and you don't benefit.

I do not care one way or the other. In general, I do the same thing. But that is the difference, I admit it and don't try to hide behind some imagined platitudes.
 
Yes, I remember (now you have nudged my memory) people speaking about "offsite image hosting". I have no real idea what that is or how it works. Also I have no recollection of who Donder is/was, nor any memory of a puppet invasion attempt. Not saying it did not happen - just that a lot of time has passed and I am an old man whose memory is not what is was.

I would not want harvesting to happen on z13, so my main point is whether such a thing could happen here?
 
It can if you allow remote hosting for avatars. It can probably be done via sig images as well.

At the time you attempted to pass off the Donder account as your wife.
 
flemingovia:
Yes, I remember (now you have nudged my memory) people speaking about "offsite image hosting". I have no real idea what that is or how it works. Also I have no recollection of who Donder is/was, nor any memory of a puppet invasion attempt. Not saying it did not happen - just that a lot of time has passed and I am an old man whose memory is not what is was.

I would not want harvesting to happen on z13, so my main point is whether such a thing could happen here?
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It could be done via signatures. We could implement a policy requiring sig images to be photobucket, imageshack, flickr, or other image hosting site that does not give access to web server logs.

I've turned off the ability to use remote avatars >_>

That only mitigates the issue as one could still find IPs through images in posts, and I wouldn't expect anybody to check all of those for private hosts. With a posted image one would have to post an image that lots of people would want to see.

TWP's more complete counter to this approach on their hosted forum was to actually make all images locally hosted on twp.nosync.org; downloading them from whatever URL. We cannot do that.
 
I recall a similar policy being put into place in TWP by That Called the Vlagh when he was Minister of Security.

In that region Saint Flemingovia was one of the chief advocates against such an action. Some members of that community even went so far as to attempt to claim it was a violation of their First Amendment rights (complete bs btw).

For reference (you will have to be able to log into the old s8 TWP forum):
http://z8.invisionfree.com/The_West_Pacifi...topic=5116&st=0

Flemingovia only makes one sarcastic post in that specific thread, but it does point out his knowledge of such instances occuring in the past and further highlights that he will oppose decisions such as that one, which was solely for forum security, when it does not suit him. :P
 
That is what I said? Can't log in to check as I have forgotten my password, but that does not sound like a quote....

Still cannot remember Donder at all. Who knows - it could actually have BEEN my wife, who does play NS from time to time. Or it could be a combination of time and age making me forget.
 
flemingovia:
That is what I said? Can't log in to check as I have forgotten my password, but that does not sound like a quote....

Still cannot remember Donder at all. Who knows - it could actually have BEEN my wife, who does play NS from time to time. Or it could be a combination of time and age making me forget.
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Your forgetfulness isn't really my concern.
 
Gracius Maximus:
Also, since you didn't include page 2:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/thepacific/inde...dpost&p=9767659

I was very clear that I did not want such a list posted publicly. I have sent in a report on the post asking that it be removed as I do not believe public lists like that should be posted. If I had known the forum had gone public I would have requested it sooner.
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Good show.

(By which I mean, I applaud your action in reporting that post.)
 
Gracius Maximus:
Also, since you didn't include page 2:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/thepacific/inde...dpost&p=9767659

I was very clear that I did not want such a list posted publicly. I have sent in a report on the post asking that it be removed as I do not believe public lists like that should be posted. If I had known the forum had gone public I would have requested it sooner.
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I was shocked when I saw this had gone public too. Found it a few weeks ago.

And when I did, I wondered aloud to myself, "Seriously...me working with Moldavi was a problem...Seriously Fudgie...Seriously!!!"

...moving on....
 
Don't you hate it when intel bites your ego in the ass? LOL

I remember coming across old IRC logs where people said some unpleasant OOC things about me. I had to take a step back and recall the circumstances in which I probably deserved the bad feelings, though the OOC expression of such things is never advised.

I have never understood my in-game reputation, especially among UCR's.
 
That is why I never really get OOC in the games.

And I never worry about things coming back to bite me. Most of my "secret" activities in NS were not worse than my public actions anyway.
 
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