Liberations: What Has Become of Them? Part 1

<@NewKervoskia> Good evening and good morning I'm New Kervoskia coming to you live from #crossfire on IRC, you're watching NS: Crossfire. To my right is the Canuck with the silver tongue - Dalimbar! To my left is a man who takes no prisoners - Biyah!  And tonight we have a special guest moderator, Naivetry of Equilism. This week's topic is Liberations: What's Become of Them?
*@Biyah has entered #Crossfire
<@Dali> Better late than never, eh.
<@Biyah> this is about liberations - if I was on time, it would be called 'a defense'
<@Naivetry> Let's start there, then. 
<@Naivetry> Liberations, the old style.  The coin toss goes to Dali for first comment.
<@Dali> Ah, how I fondly remember the old days of liberations. The days where organizations such as the RLA and ADN had agents all around the world, scoping out whatever the raiders were doing. A liberation was hard work, but always paid off, even if the operation took months and months of struggle, such as the Anarchism liberation. Yet, I suppose I'll be told I'm old fashioned when I see defenders no longer relying on their own skills of black ops and careful movements to liberate regions, but instead use the WA to do it for them.
<@Biyah> The RLA had skills? (he says with genuine confusion)
<@NewKervoskia> You all lack disclipine which is why you use the WA to infilitrate the RP arena.
<@Biyah> Oh, I'm sure we'll dedicate half our show to your twisted world view - patience, generalite.
<@Dali> I know Biyah might be set in his old ways about other defender organizations being seen as "lesser beings" to the ADN.
<@Biyah> er, hear hear?
<@Dali> However, he I hope agrees that the current world is mixed with slapdash behaviour and overuse of institutions to do the job for them.
<@Biyah> Alright then, Ms Boss - who got the second round in this coin toss?
<@Naivetry> Well, Biyah, that would be you.
<@NewKervoskia> Typical gameplayer bias.
<@Naivetry> NK can comment at the end if he likes, though I'm not sure who invited him. 
<@NewKervoskia> Of course the MODerator would side with you guys.
<@Dali> He invited himself.
<@Naivetry> I suppose that's alright, then.
<@Biyah> Sure, I agree - this current world is peopled (mostly) by weak-kneed bastards who have no idea what a clean attack is, much less a good liberation. Not to wax all nostalgic, but I'd pit even the RLA against half of the so-called Defender Orgs of today. Not that the RP'ers have changed any.
<@Naivetry> NK, anything you'd like to say?
* @Biyah coughs, "does a bear shit in the woods?"
<@NewKervoskia> RPing is a constant in NS and unlike the gameplayers we do not resort to creating institutions tantamount to godmodding. And I think their failure to agree on how to conduct a liberation is evidence enough of how flawed gameplaying is.
<@Biyah> How is using a WA godmodding? Or is that another question we don't ask, like where our money goes after it his the IRS?
<@Dali> Twist his argument around and he could be from Gatesville!
<@Biyah> or the PRP - it's all bad, unless it's for his own needs (of course).
<@NewKervoskia> WA was meant for issues which affect your nations, not parading around the world tipping over governments which, by the way, are not even part of the game as designed by Max.
<@Naivetry> Biyah, your turn to respond first.
<@Biyah> And yet, even Max has admitted to playing in our world. I bet that burned your ass.
<@Biyah> Games evolve - it's usually polite to evolve with it.
<@NewKervoskia> I'm sorry your message did not reach our nation due to weather. ~ Ministry of Comm., NK
<@Naivetry> Some would say that the game has evolved to leave the raiding/defending side behind.
<@Biyah> Hell, forget 'polite', it's usually necessary.
<@Biyah> The WA is still open, nations can still move, raiders still exist to destroy innocent regions. Raiding evolved defending, and nothing has happened to remove that factor from the equation. So, no, the raiding/defending game is more difficult - not dead.
<@Dali> Sure, for the forum users who tinker daily at their RPs and mundane conversations about god-knows what, our game, the Gameplay (notice the words there?) is the most evolutionary. Look at how it started to where it was a few years back. Sure, it has declined recently in quality, but it is a more complex game than what a standard "RPer" would think.
<@NewKervoskia> The RP structure may be simple, but it's our guidelines and rules that make it more challenging.
<@Biyah> I suddenly had this image of NK the Cro-magnon, walking around beating the heads of youngsters with the old Jolt Forum Rules book.
<@NewKervoskia> It's a realm of pure imagination. Not political jockying.
<@Dali> Sure, if I was high on something I'm sure I could nuke twenty villages in a fantasy RP in an instant.
<@NewKervoskia> That's godmodding
<@NewKervoskia> See, you just don't get it.
<@Naivetry> Alright, folks, let's stick to the topic. 
<@Biyah> If I was something less then high, I could sign up on tribal wars or travian and do the same thing.
<@Dali> What was the topic again?
<@Biyah> Herding chickens
<@Naivetry> The WA Liberation category of resolutions.  Dali, you've said defenders are no longer relying on skill, but are using the WA to do their job for them.
<@NewKervoskia> NK's economy is comprised of 20% agriculture..oh right.
<@Dali> Indeed.
<@Dali> I did say that.
<@Dali> Was there a question in there?
<@Naivetry> A Liberation resolution, despite its name, doesn't actually change the delegacy of a region.   Since that is the case, how do you see the WA being used instead of defenders' liberation skills?
<@Dali> Instead of utilizing intelligence resources (which I know these days are non-existent, but let's just play along) to go into the raider organizations and hunt down the password like what we did (and more) in the old days, now all they have to do is petition x amount of Delegates and x amount of WAs, use moralistic statements and whallah!
<@NewKervoskia> How uncivilized.
<@Dali> Yes, you don't take the region immediately.
<@Biyah> You don't even need moralistic statements, we're dealing with the bulk of WA and generalites here - it just has to be gramatically correct.
<@Dali> Indeed.
<@Naivetry> I take it you agree, then, Biyah?
<@Biyah> I'm not going to take a hard swipe against the current defender orgs. The intelligence game died, there are few left to train a new generation, and advances in modern software has made going under cover more difficult. However, yes, I agree - there is no need for world-wide earth shaking, for propoganda and putting the taken region 'under seige'. Now, all you have to do is resolve yourself to arguing with some hard- you look like you're sitting on a hot plate, dear moderator - you disagree?
<@Dali> (I don't dislike them, I'm just having fun being the negative guy )
<@Naivetry> Actually, I think we have a comment from the audience... *looks over*
<sedge> I think that Biyah understimates the intel ability of current defender orgs, possibly because he doesn't have the same access he used to. I can't really say too much about the FRA intel department *looks at other audience members*
* @Biyah hands the generalite a brown bag for hyperventiliation, since this isn't following a carefully structured plan.
<sedge> but we did get the password for Belgium...
* @Naivetry was just about to bring that up...
<@NewKervoskia> There you go again with your WA meddling.
<sedge> as for Feudal Japan - the only other region which has been subject to a liberation resolution - that was 2 years ago the invasion, there was no way anyone was going to be handing out that password
<@Dali> I would like to quickly get a point of clarification in: Did you need the liberation function to get the password for you, or did you guys get it yourself?
<@Naivetry> In Belgium, the password was procured before the resolution was passed.
<sedge> We needed the liberation function to get the password. Invaders these days are sensible enough to not hand it out
<sedge> it was only because they had to reinforce that they handed it out
<@Biyah> I'm well aware of current Intelligence capabilities. You might be surprised at what I still hear, I don't need access to high level forums (which I still do, btw, heh). I had the password to Belgium about the same time it was first retrieved. I still stand by my statement, none of the intelligence agencies of today could play ball with our groups of the past - for many reasons, including lack of personnel.
<@Biyah> As for the invaders being wise, they werent stupid in the past either. That's what long-haul infiltrations were for.
<sedge> but once they've got a region locked down and passworded, they have no incentive to hand out the password. Those that do are just plain stupid. Unless the invader delegate himself is a defender, then its near-impossible to get it
<@Biyah> The Defender Orgs have always had tough nuts to crack, we didn't need a WA resolution to do our job for us.
<@Dali> (Sedge... you asked your question, right?)
<@Biyah> Difficult, not impossible.
<sedge> (yeah, I guess I'm done on that)
<@Naivetry> How would you respond to the argument that there wasn't as much of a need for Liberation resolutions in the days when invaders had to distribute the password to natives?  Dali, you can go first.
<@Biyah> Half of the problems with today isn't with the people - there are a few who I'd have loved to have worked with. It seems to be a problem of motivation, and belief in what is possible. <@NewKervoskia> Belief in what? Changing the rules if you don't like them? NS is like an open field. We each have our side of it, but you gameplayers keep stepping on our side of the lawn.
<@NewKervoskia> And mowing our grass because you don't like the rules.
<@Biyah> Stop trying to lord your growing standards on our side, then
<@Dali> As Biyah said, the raiders of the old days weren't complete idiots or anything. A good intel op manipulated the situation that they were in to ensure that they got the goods, in this case, a password. There wasn't much of a need for these resolutions because there *was* the incentive for us to get them from the raiders. If we wanted to be true defenders, we had to do our jobs. Not take a breather when the going got tough, and let some other thing do the job for us.

* @Biyah shrugs, "There was just as much 'need' for one then as now. We were more gung-ho then, and we DID have more resources to draw from. Otherwise, the basic dynamics have not changed - just the abilities of those who take part."
<@Naivetry> Alright, let me get rid of my moderator hat for a moment.
<@Naivetry> Now, I wasn't playing back then, so I've got some questions for you on the mechanics of this.  Didn't you just need a single active native in the region to give you the password?
<@Biyah> Yup - and the rules were different before influence, so an invader delegate had to give the password to all residents. On the other hand, those raiders that knew what they were doing always removed the active types before they locked, so the new password fell on deaf ears.
<@Naivetry> But on the other hand, they still weren't allowed to eject all the natives, right?
<@Biyah> nope, it was something like 10%. The exact number escapes my memory.
<@Dali> That sounds about right, Biyah.
<@Biyah> The invaders were never as good at intel as us, but there were those who knew what they were doing, and would send in advance scouts to see who would give them problems.
<@Dali> They would then only really need to peg those off who are active, and lock the place up.
<@Biyah> But that was also why the larger areas became battlegrounds. If the password was known, then it came down to precision moving - rushing in moments before update before the active delegate could remove the lead.
<@Naivetry> ...which is what we just did in Feudal Japan.
<@Biyah> After you had the region handed to you, unlocked, sure.
<@Dali> The element of surprise was gone.
<@Biyah> I never said that it wasn't a nice piece of work - from a technical standpoint.
<@Naivetry> It wasn't the element of surprise that was gone, it was the raiders' determination to put up a fight... otherwise, they would've kept watching after the password was removed.
<@Biyah> So, there is satisfaction in making the raiders throw up their hands and give up in disgust?
<sedge> Ultimately, the satisfaction is in returning the region to the natives
<@Biyah> And that is the reason defending has fallen so far. Very few of us can be that altruistic, its the joy of the fight and the argument.
<@Naivetry> Really, Biyah?
<@Biyah> Oooh - hiss. heh
<@Naivetry> Oh, I forgot.  You started in the AA.
<@Biyah> I defended as a common soldier for a couple of months, and then the joy of 'doing the right thing' all on its own became tiring. After that, I suppose its common knowledge that I spread into Nasi and the ADN - the fights were epic, and they required more then technical know-how. That's what kept it interesting.
<@Biyah> Once the world political dynamic fell apart, raiding/defending fell with it.
<@Naivetry> ... I have a feeling that's getting into a whole other argument.
<@Biyah> Oh, without a doubt, heh.
<@Naivetry> Which means we might want to call it a night before this turns into you vs. me. 
* @Biyah spreads his hands, "You're the Moderator, Ms Boss."
<@NewKervoskia> I’m afraid that's all for tonight's show, but join us this week on NS:Crossfire!

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John Ashcroft Land:

awesome debate... Robert Novak is a hottie.

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flemingovia:

i think it is the "It is OK if I am the one doing it" school of ethics.

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Kor:

flemingovia:

i think it is the "It is OK if I am the one doing it" school of ethics.

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Americanism?

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