Delegate Intimidators

Vaticania Prime

Vaticania Prime

TNPer
Well I'm here to answer any questions you have as requested by Zemnaya Svoboda aka Eluvatar.

But first I want to put things in perspective.

Firstly, this is the only communication I've received from Glorious Leader.

Secondly, I have politely asked that he/she/it lets me know what I have done wrong and why it is wrong. To date, no reply.

Thirdly, I have no hidden agenda, just here to play the game as I have a real life away from the screen.

Finally, I do not like being threatened or bullied.I have copied below, so there is no misunderstanding, the blunt options given to me with no explanation as to why. This is clearly the work of either a very immature individual, someone who has got their way through threats rather than reasoned debate or someone who still lives with their mum.

"1. Immediately cease all endorsement gathering and join the North Pacific forum to answer questions about your activities at this URL:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/TNP/index.php?...opic=4670&st=20

2. Leave the World Assembly temporarily (losing your endorsements).

3. Leave the region for a day (losing your endorsements).

Please take one of these actions tomorrow so I do not have to resort to banning.

Best Wishes,
~Zemnaya Svoboda aka Eluvatar"

Well I've gone for option 1 so what would you like to know? You will find me both willing to exchange views and able to behave in a reasonable manner, something I have yet to see from you.

I await your response.
 
Well I'm a very reasonable person so it probably would be but I just object to being threatened by someone who doesn't have the balls to actually respond to what I thought was a reasonable request for clarification. Do you think that'sunfair of me?

I'm enjoying playing this simulation and would like to remain onboard but it's not my life.
 
Hey,

I am about to be thrown out too.

Misery likes company (well not actually misery more like mild irritation but you get the gist)

See you on the other side.

Wee Tiddle on the Wap.
 
So what's your alleged offence? Mine is apparently being a tart. whilst I find somewhat amusing considering my gender I do think it's rather offensive terminology to be tossed around. It would appear that somehow I have offended the powers that be but no one has thusfar had the balls to tell me what I've done wrong or the decency to respond to any of my requests for clarification.

PS, just where is the other side as I think I'll be shortly excommunicated.
 
My apologies if the term was unclear. It has, in this game, come to mean the practice of endorsement swapping.
 
Well now I have your attention perhaps you would do me the courtesey of explaining what is wrong with exchanging endorsements and why you feel it necesary to threaten people with expulsion rather than communicate in a reasonable and diplomatic manner.

As I said in my initial post, my only communication from you up until this point has been the threat of expulsion. Do you not agree that this aggressive stance you have taken has directly led to heightening tension rather than resolving things?
 
Vaticania Prime:
Well now I have your attention perhaps you would do me the courtesey of explaining what is wrong with exchanging endorsements and why you feel it necesary to threaten people with expulsion rather than communicate in a reasonable and diplomatic manner.

As I said in my initial post, my only communication from you up until this point has been the threat of expulsion. Do you not agree that this aggressive stance you have taken has directly led to heightening tension rather than resolving things?
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I am composing a lengthy telegram to you. :tb2:
 
You asked me here to answer your questions so here I am. To avoid any confusion over terminology please refrain from using game speak or if you must then please provide a clear explanation of what the term means.

If you have any questions then I'm only too happy to give a full and honest response. Post them now and I'll send my answers immediately I get back. Unfortunately there will have to be a slight delay as I am going to church now but I will respond as promptly as possible on my return.
 
From the RMB:
Please avoid gathering over 150 endorsements.
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In bold.

You are endorsed by:144 and have endorsed: 392

Which means you will be over 150 in a day or 2.

Please stop tarting a.k.a. Mass endorsement swapping. If it was not your intention to pass the limit placed during this war time...no problem...just stop now. Thank you.
 
Because we don't know you from Adam, with all due respect, and we know from experience that allowing unknowns to creep up on the delegacy is a massively Bad Idea (tm). It's not a personal thing.
 
Multiple conversations, ok so this may be a little fragmented but I hope it makes sense.

Tresville. Why are you dishing out edicts without explanations? surely it is better to take people with you than to wind them up with aggressive posturing. A simple question such as "why are you seeking endorsements" is far better than threats to expel unless you comply, don't you agree? And wht's so magic about 150?

Sydia, thank God someone who actually is prepared to engage in conversation. True you don't know me from Adam but as I've only been on here a couple of months I was ignorant of the concern my actions may have caused. That was not my intent. I'm here to enjoy the site, see how the system works and chill out, not declare war on anyone or usurpe power even if I knew how to do it. Can you please tell me what all the fuss is about?

I'm interested as to why it's a bad idea to have strong positions in a Region. Surely if there is an ongoing war then the Region needs strong supporters? I'm genuinely interested in sticking with this so some guidance would be appreciated rather than the threats and rhetoric I'm getting from Tresville and Svoboda.

PS I still haven't had any questions asked of me which is why Svoboda asked me to log on here. Fire away peeps.
 
Excuse me, but edicts do not have words like "please or Thankyou."

You also posted here:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/TNP/index.php?...opic=4670&st=20

So you cannot sit here and say that you do not know why.

An unknown having a strong position in the region is a security threat.

If your seriously interested in sticking then a simple "I apologize for not making my intentions clear and understand the need for this security."...is all you have to say.

I already apologized if their was a misunderstanding. I am not attacking u...no need to take a defensive stance.
 
Vaticania Prime:
Sydia, thank God someone who actually is prepared to engage in conversation. True you don't know me from Adam but as I've only been on here a couple of months I was ignorant of the concern my actions may have caused. That was not my intent. I'm here to enjoy the site, see how the system works and chill out, not declare war on anyone or usurpe power even if I knew how to do it. Can you please tell me what all the fuss is about?

I'm interested as to why it's a bad idea to have strong positions in a Region. Surely if there is an ongoing war then the Region needs strong supporters? I'm genuinely interested in sticking with this so some guidance would be appreciated rather than the threats and rhetoric I'm getting from Tresville and Svoboda.
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No problem. Basically, when the incumbent delegate sees someone swapping a load of endorsements, the possibility is always there that this individual seeks to take the delegacy of the region for themselves, usurping the elected government and plunging the region into a period of "rogue delegacy", characterised in the past by mass ejections from the region, sycophants and asshats.

It may seem a little harsh to consider every unknown nation who swaps endos to have this intention, but the adage 'better safe than sorry' comes into play here - if a nation wishes to become the delegate, there's an election system on the forums here; allowing nations to simply use the endorsement game mechanic (i.e., just get the most endorsements) has, in the past, just proved too harmful to the region.

It's probably because we're at war why this is a big issue; again, meaning no disrespect, but an unknown nation might well have sympathies elsewhere. Although I agree with you; logically, in times of crisis, it's a good idea to have a few endorsements up your sleeve for the game mechanic reason that nations with higher endocounts take more influence to eject (meaning a ban-happy delegate runs out of influence quicker, meaning he can no longer ban people), should the legitimate delegate be overthrown by a tin-pot dictator du jour. But that leads me back to my original point; we try to avoid that at all costs, prevention is than cure.
 
Treville,
Please go back and re-read the message exchanges. Being told to dump all your endorsements or you will be expelled is in my eyes an edict. I work in the legalprofession and most Judicial Reviews start Please so your argument is fatuous, it's the content which matters not the introduction or salutation.

Please explain why I should aologise for responding to a threat?

Sydia,
Thanks that makes much more sense now, I appreciate your help. Yes an outsider could clearly be a threat, so how do I get involved without appearing to be a threat? If the Region is at war, something i didn't think could happen according to the intro brief, the what can I do to ensure play my part?
 
Vaticania Prime:
Sydia,
Thanks that makes much more sense now, I appreciate your help. Yes an outsider could clearly be a threat, so how do I get involved without appearing to be a threat? If the Region is at war, something i didn't think could happen according to the intro brief, the what can I do to ensure play my part?
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Most of us old timers take that kinda stuff for granted, but there's no reason why you as a (relatively) new nation should be automatically expected to know all that stuff. Glad I could clear it up.

To answer your first point; you're already doing it. Post in the forums (any area which takes your fancy, Out of Character, WA resolutions, governmental affairs etc), join the Regional Assembly (essentially our legislative body), once you get to know the feel of the place you can run for a government position if you're interested.

About the war business, it's true that individual nations cannot declare war on each other. This doesn't stop regions doing it though; where the object of the war is to take control (via the delegacy) of the region from someone you disagree with for whatever reason. More often than not, however, it devolves into a saber-rattling contest and both sides eventually give up.
 
Tresville. Why are you dishing out edicts without explanations?
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My point was that I was not the person dishing out edicts like u say.

I did not ask you to apologize for responding to a threat...rather I gave an example of what a response in regards to any confusion in regards to your intentions would look like.

Thanks that makes much more sense now, I appreciate your help. Yes an outsider could clearly be a threat, so how do I get involved without appearing to be a threat? If the Region is at war, something i didn't think could happen according to the intro brief, the what can I do to ensure play my part?
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Now that is very Kosher. Thank you!

Now that your intentions are clear....and u want to get involved...simply stop tarting...participate in the forum, rmb or wherever u feel comfortable. To ensure your part...simply endorse the delegate and inform us if u see anything suspicious. Posting on the RMB and clearing spam is always a good thing. U can also invite people to the forum and help other newcomers.

Thanks for the interest. Endorsement returned.
 
No problem. Basically, when the incumbent delegate sees someone swapping a load of endorsements, the possibility is always there that this individual seeks to take the delegacy of the region for themselves, usurping the elected government and plunging the region into a period of "rogue delegacy", characterised in the past by mass ejections from the region, sycophants and asshats.
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Indeed, it's really more of a probability than a possibility - NS history has shown that aggressive endorsement-swappers pretty much always want to be Delegate. Sometimes they say it outright, sometimes they conceal it for a while, but actions speak louder than words, and there's really only one reason for anyone to gather massive amounts of endorsements.

Actually, I retract the previous statement. Thanks to the Influence system, there is a second reason: to accumulate influence and in so doing sap Influence from the Delegate, in order to make him weaker against a real takeover attempt or set up for one in the future. As you can see, it's hardly an improvement.

Vaticania, your statements thus far appear to be tantamount to a claim that the Delegate shouldn't get upset that you pointed a gun at his head because you don't know how gunpowder works.
 
Tresville,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I never said you were the one dishing them out, that honour goes to Svoboda.

I'm glad you have seen fit to return my endorsement, thank you for acknowledging that you acted in error. Thanks also for your guidance but you still haven't answered why I should, now my intentions are clear, stop seeking endorsements? Also to clarify, I didn't know until Sydia took time to explain, I posted on here because I was effectively summond to do so by Svoboda.

I accept your apology regarding misunderstandings, we have both learned something from this don't you think.

Sydia,

Thanks, I'll take your advise and keep on communicating. The idea of running for an office sounds appealing so I'll look further into this.
 
Vaticania Prime:
Tresville. Why are you dishing out edicts without explanations?
Click to expand...
Ahem...


Thanks also for your guidance but you still haven't answered why I should, now my intentions are clear, stop seeking endorsements? Also to clarify, I didn't know until Sydia took time to explain
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Well, perhaps I should not have assumed that you read the rest of the posts in the threads that u posted in. They pretty much explained why..as has Sydia and Kandarin now. So, I will not simply repeat what they have already made clear and u now understand.

Like Syd said...hope u stick around. Sorry for any confusion or if I came of abrasive...its the sarcastic Virgo in me!! lol
 
Kandarin:
No problem. Basically, when the incumbent delegate sees someone swapping a load of endorsements, the possibility is always there that this individual seeks to take the delegacy of the region for themselves, usurping the elected government and plunging the region into a period of "rogue delegacy", characterised in the past by mass ejections from the region, sycophants and asshats.
Click to expand...

Indeed, it's really more of a probability than a possibility - NS history has shown that aggressive endorsement-swappers pretty much always want to be Delegate. Sometimes they say it outright, sometimes they conceal it for a while, but actions speak louder than words, and there's really only one reason for anyone to gather massive amounts of endorsements.

Actually, I retract the previous statement. Thanks to the Influence system, there is a second reason: to accumulate influence and in so doing sap Influence from the Delegate, in order to make him weaker against a real takeover attempt or set up for one in the future. As you can see, it's hardly an improvement.

Vaticania, your statements thus far appear to be tantamount to a claim that the Delegate shouldn't get upset that you pointed a gun at his head because you don't know how gunpowder works.
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Mmm, but you can't discount the possibility of new nations being ignorant of how things works. Like I said, we take it for granted.

@ VP; Glad to hear it. Hope to see you round the forums.
 
Vaticania Prime:
Thanks also for your guidance but you still  haven't answered why I should, now my intentions are clear, stop seeking endorsements?
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Because endorsement-swapping is in many ways an innately hostile and aggressive action, of the sort you might not want to do if your intentions are friendly. To use another example, if a nation declares peace and friendship with another, it would be prudent to cease posting vast military forces at the border they share.
 
Sydia,

I still don't get how the mechanics of this works. How does someone use endorsements to damage the delegate? I can see how if you had more endorsements but not if you were significantly behind them.
 
Vaticania Prime:
Sydia,

I still don't get how the mechanics of this works. How does someone use endorsements to damage the delegate? I can see  how if you had more endorsements but not if you were significantly behind them.
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Mainly because you'd still be in a position to threaten the delegacy with an endorsement marathon and/or a bunch of invading (i.e., coming into TNP from a hostile region) WA nations endorsing you (which has happened too many times to count in NationStates).

Which would undermine the democratic delegate elections we hold on here.
 
From what I have heard I could see it also working the other way, but I might have misunderstood things. Like with the current elections, as far as I can see the Delegate Elect, if it has finally been resolved (can't work it out myself too many messages), is now having problems taking over the post as the incumbent has gained so much influence and is so far ahead of them that it could take weeks or longer for them to get the influence to take over the position they have been elected to.
Also if a delegate was not happy with election results and decided not to stand down, or to go on a spree ejecting people from the area you would need relatively strong nations to reduce their influence while the fight to uphold the results was carried out.
 
Byakhee:
From what I have heard I could see it also working the other way, but I might have misunderstood things. Like with the current elections, as far as I can see the Delegate Elect, if it has finally been resolved (can't work it out myself too many messages), is now having problems taking over the post as the incumbent has gained so much influence and is so far ahead of them that it could take weeks or longer for them to get the influence to take over the position they have been elected to.
Also if a delegate was not happy with election results and decided not to stand down, or to go on a spree ejecting people from the area you would need relatively strong nations to reduce their influence while the fight to uphold the results was carried out.
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That's a whole other legal issue not related to game mechanics, but relating to the technicalities of our constitution.

Democratically electing delegates reduces the possibility of ending up with a rogue, since you know the platform, etc. If they do go ban-happy there are methods to get rid of them; as you can see, no rogue lasts forever. Sooner or later they all go. Having an unknown with a high endo count isn't any kind of guarantee against a delegate going rogue, if they're that way inclined, it's gonna happen anyway, and we've no way of knowing that the unknown is any better. Usually high endo nations are the first to get the chop, for obvious reasons.
 
It is unfortunate that I had to continue gathering endorsements early in the election cycle, leading to my commanding lead at the moment, but that was necessary because Gatesville declared war and we had not yet secured the reduction of endorsement swappers from a rough 200 limit to the new rough 150 limit.

There are a number of high-influence nations who could be relied upon to serve the region in case of the Delegate going rogue, such as Great Bights Mum, Former English Colony, and Unterwasserseestaat, as well as The Tresville Element while I'm still Delegate and myself once I am not. (Mostly Great Bights Mum though, the others aren't nearly as active these days).
 
Byakhee:
From what I have heard I could see it also working the other way, but I might have misunderstood things. Like with the current elections, as far as I can see the Delegate Elect, if it has finally been resolved (can't work it out myself too many messages), is now having problems taking over the post as the incumbent has gained so much influence and is so far ahead of them that it could take weeks or longer for them to get the influence to take over the position they have been elected to.
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Actually, due to that issue I stopped TGing nations in the region to overtake Elu. I have simply been endorsing the new WA members.

Influence has nothing to do with being able to overtake a seated delegate...just the endo count. Influence becomes a factor when the delegate wants to eject or ban a WA nation in the region. If he/she boots someone with a high influence (influence lower than the delegate...but high non the less) then the delegate would lose a portion of his influence for booting said nation with an influence higher than "minnow."

I also spoke to Elu, who will still be our VD, and made sure that he did not ask for people to unendorse him so that I can take the delegacy. This way...the VD should have over 280 endocount, Delegate would eventually get over 300 and this is best for regional security.
 
Vaticania Prime:
Sydia,

I still don't get how the mechanics of this works. How does someone use endorsements to damage the delegate? I can see how if you had more endorsements but not if you were significantly behind them.
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Also, the accumulation of Influence is a bit equivalent to a general military buildup. Good in those we can trust, worrysome in those we cannot.
 
I'm sorry Eluvatar but that just smacks of "if you aint with us then you must be against us".

I can see how you need to be aware of potential threats but you really do need to reconsider your methods of determining if someone is trustworthy or not.
 
Vaticania Prime:
I'm sorry Eluvatar but that just smacks of "if you aint with us then you must be against us".

I can see how you need to be aware of potential threats but you really do need to reconsider your methods of determining if someone is trustworthy or not.
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What are our methods that need to be reconsidered?
 
Always open to suggestions. Mind u...trust is built not just given. Respect on the other hand...is different.

Also, since you were invited to clarify not just booted...I don't see how this is "if you aint with us then you must be against us."
 
Perhaps a friendlier and more egalitarian approach.

Might just work.

I agree trust and respect are earned not merely derived from titles.
 
Thats my point there is no clarification, I was given three options which boiled down to comply or get booted out.

As for the methods I don't know but the default setting seems to be if you are not one of the select inner circle then you are a threat. Ever considered just asking before issuing threats?
 
Vaticania Prime:
Thats my point there is no clarification, I was given three options which boiled down to comply or get booted out.

As for the methods I don't know but the default setting seems to be if you are not one of the select inner circle then you are a threat. Ever considered just asking before issuing threats?
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Yes, we do that often. You however were already approaching 150 at speed, having given over 300 endorsements.

You're a little bit off the mark in your analysis: The default setting... if you are aggressively gathering endorsements is to consider you a threat. If we know someone, then we have reason to trust. I disagree with, say, Tresville on plenty of policy matters, but I trust him. I disagree with Mr Sniffles on a few points as well, but trust him. Yaorozu, who's been here for some time, we've come to largely trust despite their avoidance of the forum. Even Atrigea, who Security Advisor Tresville and I had similar discussions with earlier, I largely trust, having interacted with them repeatedly and for some time.

And yes, the message boiled down to stand down or face booting. It's similar to the threat of violence in police requests.

Title? I suppose I style myself President Eluvatar, after having run a poll on the subject. How have I disrespected you however?
 
I like a feisty debate.

Give me a President of action, like Idi Amin, over some weakling like Ernest Bai Koroma.
 
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