Gatesville War

Eluvatar

Eluvatar

TNPer
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-
Pronouns
he/him/his
TNP Nation
Zemnaya Svoboda
Discord
Eluvatar#8517
The Sword of Domocolees has been ejected and banned from The North Pacific.
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Domocolees came from Gatesville and was flying a Gatesville flag. We are at war with Gatesville.



Elvisannia is officially Warned to cease and desist endorsement swapping or face ejection due to their activities exciting justifiable suspicion.
 
interestingly Domocolees was banned from this region waaaay back - 2004? 2005? for endotarting in order to take over the region.
 
I had no idea "ejection" could happen. What constitutes a "justifiably suspicious" behavior? is there voting on this somewhere? :o
 
"Justifiably suspicious" (lovely wording, heh) would include responding to a "please cease and desist as your position may be exploited by hostile forces" TG with a "No I will not stop" TG and continuing to collect endorsements and endorse other nations.
 
Maybe this would help:

TNP LAW 14
Wartime Provisions

Section 1: Wartime Provisions

No player maintaining a nation in a region at war with TNP may maintain a nation within TNP, or participate in the governance thereof, for the duration of hostilities. Any player found doing so will be stripped of membership in the Regional Assembly and subject to banishment from the region. A "region at war" is any region which has made a formal declaration, or made acts of war against The North Pacific, or vice versa, as deemed by decision by the Security Council. War does not constitute actions taken by or against the North Pacific Army unless the conflict meets the conditions above. A state of war exists until a formal peace treaty, surrender terms, or similar, is/are recognized.
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As a new and rising nation, our legal attaches have not read all (or any) of the by-laws of this region and have not been informed of regional forums until today.

First off, what is endorsement swapping and endotarting? Secondly, how does my endorsing the nations of our great region allow the citizens of Elvisannia to be exploited by the enemy?
 
Gates:
I've lost 3 wars in TNP HEM because we always backed a cowardly delegate this 4th time will be a charm because I'll have my own folks in.
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(Posted in Empire forums.)

For all we're aware of now, you two new arrivals could very probably be "his own folks" - rising in endorsement counts rather quickly, and posting here making inquiries on the "validity" of the current TNP government's regulations. One can never tell, and this is why extreme caution is exercised in times of war.

Although this certainly does not amount to a breach in rights or totalitarian control (unless you're of the same mind as Gatesville).
 
The citizens of the Great Nation of Elvisannia are not questioning the validity of the regulations. They are just questioning what the regulations are?

The citizens of Elvisannia would prefer not being accused of being Gatesville, we have enough problems with deforestation right now.
 
Endotarting/swapping is basically trying to get as many endorsements as you can in the shortest period of time possible, usually through use of telegrams, in order to take the delegacy.

The danger is that you have no idea who you're endorsing or what their agenda is.
 
OK, my mistake, my thoughts were that getting endorsements was a way of getting to know one's community and none of them were through telegrams.

So if someone received this telegram, would it be a form of endotarting/swapping: ?

Hello neighbor!

I've decided to endorse you, I'd be quite obliged if you were to return the favor!

I would really appreciate your endorsement.

Thanks for your time!
 
That generally is an endotarting tactic.

Endotarting is no big deal most of the time, but after someone gathers something like 100 endos and is still tarting full speed, we start to get suspicious of their actual motives.

Especially in times of war.
 
Outer Kharkistania:
That generally is an endotarting tactic.

Endotarting is no big deal most of the time, but after someone gathers something like 100 endos and is still tarting full speed, we start to get suspicious of their actual motives.

Especially in times of war.
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:unsure:

Suspicious you say... a big deal...

[size=-5]Quick, were's the undo button on this thing![/size]
 
am I one of the new people you speak of? why.. I dont dispute the validity of your cabinet. I just dont know who is making these decisions and why.

luckily, I have no political ambitions, my number or endorsers speaks for itself. I am actually fascinated by all this. I thought all there was to do was respond to issues, but apparently there are real-world politics involved...silly me. :duh:
 
There are some interesting politics involved.

As Delegate, I *have* to send out telegrams like this:

Hello neighbor!

I've decided to endorse you, I'd be quite obliged if you were to return the favor!

I would really appreciate your endorsement.
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Actually, that telegram sounds somehow VERY familiar >_>

Anywho, doing that makes people think you're trying to get the delegacy, and for good reason, because continuing like that is likely to bring it close to you.

Unless of course you get ejected :bat:

Anywho, in TNP we are perhaps the last feeder region to permit basically free endorsement swapping most of the time. Right now we are in a war, so I'm asking you to limit it. We like our freedom, but we don't want to lose it.
 
The nations of Byakhee, Vaticania Prime, Wee Tiddle on the Wap, and Tormin have been Warned, and asked to post here and cease endorsement gathering or drop their endorsements.. or face banning.

Why?
  • Byakhee-- Has been in communication before but, some time ago, after being told that the rough 150 limit was to stay until the delegacy transfer, resumed endorsement swapping. I took a dim view of this, but now that the transfer is coming up I feel Byakhee needs to be dealt with in some way, shape, or form in a manner that ensures the security of the region under the next Delegate.
  • Vaticania Prime-- New tart who is the fourth most swapping nation in the region and will probably break the 150 mark tomorrow if nothing is done. Have not communicated before with them, but due to the coming transfer I am not inclined to be generous so they are going straight to this final warning.
  • Wee Tiddle on the Wap-- Has been here since Lewis and Clark, but was never in communication with the Constitutional Government that I remember. Has recently been endorsement swapping well beyond the 150 mark I had requested.
  • Tormin-- Has been here a while, has not ever communicated with regional government that I am aware of. Included in this because they are over 150 and continuing to actively gather endorsements, and again delegacy transfer is coming up soon.
 
In reply to the warning I would like to state that after being originally warned I sought clarification as I was at 150 endrosements at the time and likely to exceed it. I had also just received endorsements from The Former English Colony and Mr Sniffles who seemed to me to be people that we should be endorsing. The reply I received from Zemnaya was that yes it was fine to endorse them and that a reduce level of endorsement swapping could continue.
I apologise if my level of endorsement swapping has come across as excessive, but I hold on to my right as covered by our constitution that "The right to add an endorsement or withdraw an endorsement is a sovereign right of that Nation as a WA member." I have not been involved in sending telegrams asking for nations to endorse me, but do think that trying to get above the minnow status adds something to the game. I have no aims to become delegate as it comes across as too much like hard work. Ido not have other nations in Nation States and have never been in any of the regions we are currently at war with.
I also am surprised at the message posted, thinking that calling Vaticania Prime a "New tart" and moving them straight up to final warning without communicating with them previously comes across as offensive and excessive especially as they were not over 150 and might have been aiming to remain within the limit. This sentence alone reflects badly on the whole issue and any action taken against them.
 
I received a telegram from Zemnaya Svoboda to which I immediately replied asking for clarification. My return telegram was pleasant and I merely asked for more information.

My reply was ignored.

I admit I am a pedant over manners and expect a civil response from people I deal with in the same manner.

To be blunt I ignored the request because Zemnaya Svoboda ignored my reply.

Yes I have been in the TNP since Lewis & Clark when they used to throw people out and ban people they disliked. “Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose”?

I do not think it is constructive or polite to call people ‘tarts’ and I am certainly not prepared to abase myself to remain in the region.

If you still feel the need to ban me then go ahead.

Wee Tiddle on the Wap
 
Well I'm here to answer any questions you have as requested by Zemnaya Svoboda aka Eluvatar.

But first I want to put things in perspective.

Firstly, this is the only communication I've received from Glorious Leader.

Secondly, I have politely asked that he/she/it lets me know what I have done wrong and why it is wrong. To date, no reply.

Thirdly, I have no hidden agenda, just here to play the game as I have a real life away from the screen.

Finally, I do not like being threatened or bullied.I have copied below, so there is no misunderstanding, the blunt options given to me with no explanation as to why. This is clearly the work of either a very immature individual, someone who has got their way through threats rather than reasoned debate or someone who still lives with their mum.

"1. Immediately cease all endorsement gathering and join the North Pacific forum to answer questions about your activities at this URL:
http://z13.invisionfree.invalid/TNP/index.php?...opic=4670&st=20

2. Leave the World Assembly temporarily (losing your endorsements).

3. Leave the region for a day (losing your endorsements).

Please take one of these actions tomorrow so I do not have to resort to banning.

Best Wishes,
~Zemnaya Svoboda aka Eluvatar"

Well I've gone for option 1 so what would you like to know? You will find me both willing to exchange views and able to behave in a reasonable manner, something I have yet to see from you.

I await your response.
 
For reference, before I proceed to questioning:

Endorsements given:
Byakhee -- 427
Vaticania Prime -- 392
Tormin -- 357
Wee Tiddle on the Wap -- 298
 
Question ONE:

To all four:

Why do you seek endorsements?

Question TWO:

To all four:

What other regions are you involved in, if any?

Question THREE:

To Byakhee:

If my repeated statement was that it was okay to continue swapping a small amount, not going much over 150, why are you gathering endorsements at speed to 176 and beyond?
 
Byakhee thanks for that reply. I think you have made your point. Excuse the harshness of Elu's actions. We are at war and have him set to Red.

Perhaps we should add a reason for the limit in the RMB. This should end all confusion as to why tarting is extremely frowned upon.

To clarify...Tarting is considered "excessive" endorsement swapping.
 
Tarting is the term used throughout NationStates and is not intended as a slight on anyone in particular so please to be offended if it is referred to as that.
 
1) As I hinted at in my original reply when I found out about endorsement swapping and the ratings of regional power I thought it would be fun to set myself a goal of getting beyond the minnow status. Running the country is fun, but I was looking at gradually becoming more involved in the game.

2) As stated in my original reply I do not have other nations in Nation States, I was in one other region for a day (if that) when I joined before moving to The North Pacific, have had no involvement with other regions and am not a member of any other forum.

3) As quoted in 1) I have set myself a goal to get beyond minnow, I did reduce my endorsements until the original end date of the elections, but was not paying attention to the forum when there were issues over it and so thought everything had been sorted out. I also paid attention to the Delegate Elects number of endorsements and waited until they were considerably ahead of me before increasing my endorsements as I have no desire to get too involved or undermine the change of control. I have no intentions to act against the elected regional representatives, but must admit I found it frustrating that I was given an open ended don't swap endorsements or increase your influence until we say otherwise without a date when it will be reviewed or an end date.

I did consider applying to join the RA before the elections, but noticed the 30 day rule for voting so saw no point in applying at that point and thought I would continue to look at regional ratings rather than getting stuck in with the forum / RA side.
 
Thanks again Byakhee. This type of conversation is exactly what we were looking for.

You will be at minnow for some time though. When I unretired my nation received the "Truckler" influence due to my tenure in the region prior to CTE. I did not have over 120 endoes at the time. If I am not mistaken...influence is a combination of time and endorsements within a region. So stick around...you'll reach truckler in a year or so hopefully.
 
Thanks at last for someone to actually take the time to explain what the hell is going on.

1) I'm seeking endorsements as I thought it was part of the game. No mystery I'm just here for the fun of it so no need to panic about Reds under the bed.

2) This is the only Region I have been or intend to be involved in. I was given the link through a friend via work and was dropped into this Region when I signed in. Again no mystery.

Now perhaps Svoboda or Eluvatar, or whatever you want to be known as today would do me the honour of answering the questions I posted to you? To repeat,

1) What have I done wrong and why is it wrong?

2) Why was it necesary for you to adopt such an aggressive and threatening posture when a reasonable question would have resolved the issue?

3) Where has the magic number 150 come from and what is it's significance?

And finally, do you not agree that your undiplomatic behaviour and offensive manner do little to making TNP an inviting and cinclusive Region for new members to be in? Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here.
 
Hi Tresville,

I must admit with the 30 day rule I think I must have misread it at the time as there is a fair bit to read in the rules and I was having problems getting the linked membership with my nation to work (never managed it due to an error with the system).
My understanding of influence is the same as yours which is why ideally I want a high enough amount of endorsements so it happens as soon as possible. I understand it will take time, but if most of the rest have about 150 I should be gaining influence faster than some of the other reducing the time slightly. Also by keeping below the level of leading few I have been hoping to juggle it so that I don't cause real problems or end up in a position I don't really want while making significant progress towards my goal. The issue with the 150 limit is you can of course get any number of nations around the same level gaining influence at the same rate and so extending the time it takes. I understand this is a competitive philosophy that isn't appreciated at this time of elections and war, but some of us are competitive in what we do.

Thanks,
Byakhee
 
Vaticania Prime:
Thanks at last for someone to actually take the time to explain what the hell is going on.

1) I'm seeking endorsements as I thought it was part of the game. No mystery I'm just here for the fun of it so no need to panic about Reds under the bed.

2) This is the only Region I have been or intend to be involved in. I was given the link through a friend via work and was dropped into this Region when I signed in. Again no mystery.

Now perhaps Svoboda or Eluvatar, or whatever you want to be known as today would do me the honour of answering the questions I posted to you? To repeat,

1) What have I done wrong and why is it wrong?

2) Why was it necesary for you to adopt such an aggressive and threatening posture when a reasonable question would have resolved the issue?

3) Where has the magic number 150 come from and what is it's significance?

And finally, do you not agree that your undiplomatic behaviour and offensive manner do little to making TNP an inviting and cinclusive Region for new members to be in? Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here.
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I am known as Eluvatar on the forum, and on IRC. Eluvatar is a nation in Taijitu (not in the WA). I used to maintain the nation Eluvataran Isles in the North Pacific. My oldest nation, and the nation which is mine in the World Assembly and in the North Pacific today, is Zemnaya Svoboda, Russian for Earthly Freedom. That's not that many names. In my telegram to you I noted I was Zemnaya Svoboda aka Eluvatar, even.

1. You aggressively gathered endorsements. It has been explained repeatedly why we take a dim view of this, especially in a time of war.

2. How was my posture aggressive? It was threatening, yes, because that is necessary. Without the threat of banjection to back it up, my experience is that persistent endorsement swappers tend to eventually ignore requests.

3. The number 150 comes from the fact that the greatest army I can conceive of that I wouldn't have warning of would be no bigger than 150 or so and I, the Delegate, am around 300 endorsements. I suspect it is no coincidence that the West Pacific, who's Delegate is also around 300 endorsements, has an official 150 endorsement cap.

The North Pacific is an inviting and inclusive region.

Plenty of Pacifics would simply ban you for swapping so much without so much as a second thought. (See the Pacific, endocap 30, The East Pacific, endocap 50)

We spend time messaging new nations (though we don't reach all of them) welcoming them to the region and inviting them to the forum. When I gather endorsements I am welcoming of people and invite them to the forum.

By the way, feel free to ask for a spot on the map if that interests you.
 
“The North Pacific is an inviting and inclusive region.”

So people say but being foolishly individualistic and pig headed stubborn I cannot agree with that view. Just saying how bad other regions are is not really going to win over doubters.
Instead of saying how nice you are to people why do you not just be it?
Would it have really killed you to reply to either of my telegrams or do you need an audience?

This, “It was threatening, yes, because that is necessary.” tone does risk coming across as a wee bit too full of yourself.

WTotW

PS- I would ask for a place on the map but for obvious reasons that might not be very practical.
 
WeeTiddler:
“The North Pacific is an inviting and inclusive region.”

So people say but being foolishly individualistic and pig headed stubborn I cannot agree with that view. Just saying how bad other regions are is not really going to win over doubters.
Instead of saying how nice you are to people why do you not just be it?
Would it have really killed you to reply to either of my telegrams or do you need an audience?

This, “It was threatening, yes, because that is necessary.” tone does risk coming across as a wee bit too full of yourself.

WTotW

PS- I would ask for a place on the map but for obvious reasons that might not be very practical.
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Why wouldn't it be practical to ask for a place on the map?

I'm sorry if I didn't answer some of your telegrams. My only excuse is that I get so many, and they get pushed out of my inbox so quickly... >_< I'm working on a solution but I don't have one yet >_>

PMing me on the forum is more reliable. That doesn't go away.

There are alot of reasons why the threat was necessary. I don't see how my stating that makes me "full of yourself." Are you trying to make me angry through such odd insults?
 
Sorry Eluvatar but I did not, as you term it, aggressicely seek endorsementts. I played the game as I saw others doing.

It has only been explained after the event why you think this is wrong, and it wasn't you who provided the explanation.

Again, sorry but saying "It was threatening, yes, because that is necessary." goes no way to explaining your actions. Apology if I sound like a stuck record but people tend to react better to discussion rather than threat.

Do you not agree?
 
I am not trying to make you angry and I have no desire to be rude.
I am merely trying to explain that sometimes you risk coming across badly.
I am sure my manners need some work but your tone does sound a little patrician.

I mentioned the map as I assumed I am still to be banned/ expelled from the region.


WTotW

ps- Will try not use odd English phrases.
 
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